I keep hearing on podcasts people saying things like "I came to X-Wing as a refugee from 40k" and everyone laughs and agrees and generally sympathises. I hear similar comments constantly, even on the forums.

As a genuine point of curiosity, what has happened to 40k these days to cause so much upset? Is there a concise source of information somewhere that someone could point me to? I haven't played 40k for 20+ years, so am somewhat out of the loop.

Basically I'd just like to understand what all these people are talking about!

40k has a horribly thought-out policy that basically equates to "newest army/model = best army/model". In addition, the rules are commonly found to be full of contradictions or can be interpreted multiple ways (because GW does not have a uniform way of writing rules) and, when GW is asked for a clarification, the response is almost always "We're a model company not a gaming company so figure it out yourselves." The gaming community is toxic because people tend to have to invest so much money, time, and effort into their armies before they even hit the field that anything that contradicts how they feel the game should be is taken as a personal insult.

Finally, there's the price. This is the reason I got into X-Wing, in fact. A buddy of mine almost convinced me to give 40k another shot because I already had about 2/3 of what I needed for a current competitive list when another friend pointed out that for the same price of that 1/3 of a 40k list I could buy literally every X-Wing ship in print. Also, I've probably played more games of X-Wing in the last few months than I did of 40k in over a decade... it really is as bad as everyone says.

I used to play WH40K second edition. After I saw the third edition and the latest releases back then, I quit the game.

I am talking about many, many years ago. Weirdly enough, I got hooked to X-Wing last year. So I am one of those guys you are mentioning.

I concur with Redthirst's opinion (and I was a Blood Angel too). I lost interest in the game, and it was clear it was taking a bad direction. It became very dull, and last-model based (the Culexus assassin was uberstrong). I mead, a multi-melta has to do 2d12. If I remember correctly, it all became a 6 sided dice system.

Concur with the above. The other thing it suffers from is that in the main the mechanics haven't really changed all that much in 20+ years.

The IGOUGO dynamic is tired these days. Watching and waiting for someone to move and attack with their entire army and then wait for your turn is just not that much fun.

Many systems have brought out superior dynamics since involving alternating activation, but GW have barely altered their core mechanics.

Being stuck to d6 doesn't help either as the constrained variation it offers in terms of stats, etc. means in order to introduce greater variations there are a dizzying array of special rules you have to try and remember for units/models.

It's a shame really.

I love the IP/setting, the mechanics suck. I'm trying to convert the rules to Antares/Bolt Action style which offers a better flow of gameplay.

There are several factors which affect gamer's decision making process when transferring from 40K to X-Wing.

• Price : As stated above, X-Wing costs a fraction of what 40K can cost you. This also applies to peripheral material too. 40K rule books and codexes cost a motza - before you even have a model to field! FFG publish their rule books online in PDF for all to access.
• Pre-Painted : Whilst many enjoy the modelling side of 40K (myself included) the ability to purchase an expansion and have it on the table a minute later is invaluable.
• Entry Point : Entry to X-Wing is low cost, fast and easy.
• Simplicity : The rules for X-Wing are simple to understand. They are easy to teach and easy to learn. The game also offers complexity in the almost infinite number of combinations one can field and play against, making it a rich experience despite the simple rule set.
• Storage : X-Wing takes up a fraction of the space of 40K (especially when you consider all of the hobby supplies required)
• Stigma : Right now, Star Wars is on trend. Like beards and Lego. 10 years ago few people wore a beard or openly voiced their love for Lego or SW. If you wore a SW shirt (which weren't available down at the local store) you were probably deemed a nerd. Now, like all things fashionable, it's OK to publicly state that you like SW (and always have). It's OK to wear a SW shirt .. it's actually 'cool'. 40K never had, and never will have the level of general public acceptance. It's just a 'silly game for nerds' to a majority of the public.
• GW Model Policy : I felt this way in the past and I see many complaints about it now. It seems that the new models = more powerful models = compulsory purchases. It can also be argued that X-Wing is similar in that certain upgrades (which are only available in specific expansions) are 'must haves'. X-Wing however, promotes the some of their upgrades as remedies to balance the game and keep your favourite ships on the table (the fact you need to buy an epic ship to obtain them appears a little suspect though). It feels that GW promotes new models as "Look at this shiny fantastic thing that you'll need. Buy it now and give us lots of money or you're a chump!"
• Star Wars : It's Star Wars sir. 'Nuff said.

Having said this, there are still many reasons to engage with 40K.

• Customisation and personalisation of models/armies.
• Rich universe and lore.
• Very high quality of miniatures.
• Modelling of terrain.
• Large player base and access to the game.
• Look of 2 well painted armies facing off against each other on a gorgeous table.

As someone who plays 40k and other GW systems I have to say that a big part of it is the community that you play it with. Myself and many of my friends are closer to casual gamers who take the rule of cool over most things, and we're not the most competitive gamers in the world. We generally agree with how rules should be portrayed and we don't invest in lists that are designed to table people - if it happens though it happens, and it's no skin off our back.

That said, I don't agree with the idea presented above that latest codex = strongest army. The only army that isn't very competitive at the moment are Chaos Space Marines, and the highest win-rate goes to Imperial Knights (unsurprisingly) so in a tournament setting you'll definitely see more of one thing than another with some variation, but honestly that goes for every games system I've played in.

However I'll agree with the posters above saying that it can be a very dull system to play, where one person goes first and then the other and then the other, and the scenarios for games aren't too interesting and generally come down to who can clear whose army off the board first. Ironically, I've been playing the Horus Heresy system and despite it being, more or less, space marine versus space marine it has unique objectives and scenarios that breathed new life into the game for me.

With all that said and done, I'll agree that the price of play for X-wing and the quality of pick-up-and-play are far superior to that of 40k. It's expensive and takes many hours of preparation to play. The main pull of 40k for me is the modeling and creating a thematic army. I've not bought anything for 40k in a while with exception to the new Genestealer Cult as I've been focusing primarily on X-Wing and Age of Sigmar, and it might be a while before I actually invest in it again.

I keep hearing on podcasts people saying things like "I came to X-Wing as a refugee from 40k" and everyone laughs and agrees and generally sympathises. I hear similar comments constantly, even on the forums.

As a genuine point of curiosity, what has happened to 40k these days to cause so much upset? Is there a concise source of information somewhere that someone could point me to? I haven't played 40k for 20+ years, so am somewhat out of the loop.

Basically I'd just like to understand what all these people are talking about!

Cost. Having to paint everything after spending hours assembling. Cost. Having to assemble based on either a) a specific loadout ((i.e. WYSIWYG)) or b) having to use dozens of magnets. Cost. It's expensive. Starter armies are around what, $250 + rules etc? Cost. Tape measures. Cost. Hard cover. Cost. Did I mention COST?

There are several factors which affect gamer's decision making process when transferring from 40K to X-Wing.

• Price : As stated above, X-Wing costs a fraction of what 40K can cost you. This also applies to peripheral material too. 40K rule books and codexes cost a motza - before you even have a model to field! FFG publish their rule books online in PDF for all to access.
• Pre-Painted : Whilst many enjoy the modelling side of 40K (myself included) the ability to purchase an expansion and have it on the table a minute later is invaluable.
• Entry Point : Entry to X-Wing is low cost, fast and easy.
• Simplicity : The rules for X-Wing are simple to understand. They are easy to teach and easy to learn. The game also offers complexity in the almost infinite number of combinations one can field and play against, making it a rich experience despite the simple rule set.
• Storage : X-Wing takes up a fraction of the space of 40K (especially when you consider all of the hobby supplies required)
• Stigma : Right now, Star Wars is on trend. Like beards and Lego. 10 years ago few people wore a beard or openly voiced their love for Lego or SW. If you wore a SW shirt (which weren't available down at the local store) you were probably deemed a nerd. Now, like all things fashionable, it's OK to publicly state that you like SW (and always have). It's OK to wear a SW shirt .. it's actually 'cool'. 40K never had, and never will have the level of general public acceptance. It's just a 'silly game for nerds' to a majority of the public.
• GW Model Policy : I felt this way in the past and I see many complaints about it now. It seems that the new models = more powerful models = compulsory purchases. It can also be argued that X-Wing is similar in that certain upgrades (which are only available in specific expansions) are 'must haves'. X-Wing however, promotes the some of their upgrades as remedies to balance the game and keep your favourite ships on the table (the fact you need to buy an epic ship to obtain them appears a little suspect though). It feels that GW promotes new models as "Look at this shiny fantastic thing that you'll need. Buy it now and give us lots of money or you're a chump!"
• Star Wars : It's Star Wars sir. 'Nuff said.

Having said this, there are still many reasons to engage with 40K.

• Customisation and personalisation of models/armies.
• Rich universe and lore.
• Very high quality of miniatures.
• Modelling of terrain.
• Large player base and access to the game.
• Look of 2 well painted armies facing off against each other on a gorgeous table.

Well you saved me a lot of writing sir.

For me, it's the price, the scale and the "go big or go home" mentality.

The price of playing 40K just got too ridiculous. When I got in at the tail-end of 4th edition the rules cost about $50, and army-specific codex was $25 and the biggest models were about $50. Then 6th edition hit. The rule book was $75, the codexes we started going for $50 and that $50 model is now $75.

The game is also scaled wrong. They added super-heavy vehicles and flyers which worked well for Epic and Apocalypse, but are to powerful or just don't work with the size of the playing area.

Going a bit more into the "newest army is the best" complaint, once factions started getting bigger and better toys ($100+ super-heavy tanks, Knights, etc) how do you compete? Buy your own expensive counter. I'd also stop into the FLGS looking for something, anything, to add to my 40K collection and finding there wasn't anything under $25-30 being offered.

I honestly wish they'd release a 40K skirmish game: something that could be played with a small number of models, probably just infantry, and rules available online just like most other companies do these days. That way, I could at least keep a toe in the 40K pool since I can't justify the cost of 40K to my wife these days or find the time for a standard size game.

I honestly wish they'd release a 40K skirmish game: something that could be played with a small number of models, probably just infantry, and rules available online just like most other companies do these days. That way, I could at least keep a toe in the 40K pool since I can't justify the cost of 40K to my wife these days or find the time for a standard size game.

there are groups on FB who are writing Necromunda/Mordheim style rules for this level of play.

Heralds fo Ruin Kill Team is the one I follow closest.

I honestly wish they'd release a 40K skirmish game: something that could be played with a small number of models, probably just infantry, and rules available online just like most other companies do these days. That way, I could at least keep a toe in the 40K pool since I can't justify the cost of 40K to my wife these days or find the time for a standard size game.

I attribute the relative success of Warmachine to this very factor.

Thanks for the insights guys.

I still like the game, but it hasn't been fun for a while. I've dumped most of my stuff and now am down to just one army, as maintaining more than one army was to expensive. The price barrier to entry is way to high, and the cost per model is a bit higher than the average for other games as well. The need to have dozens of models really drives the cost up as well. The game has poorly written rules, inconsistent points values, and the addition of formations that give free stuff to already good armies makes it even worse for armies that are already struggling. Chaos is not the only under performing army, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, and Imperial Guard, all suffer from poor model/unit costs for their abilities, and don't receive as many buffs for things as other armies do. This being Space Marines 30th birthday will probably drive the power of Space Marines higher by giving them yet more buffs/free stuff. The new shiny is typically the best thing for an army, though sometimes they are made to fail, probably because of the model pointing system of "It's cost just felt right" and yes that is a direct quote from one of their designers.

Basically, in 2016 it's obsolete.

For me, it was several things:

1, the price gouging. GW has adopted a ridiculous and unsustainable pricing scheme, with the admitted tactic that this is a luxury item and should be priced accordingly. Given that you often need dozens to even hundreds of models for a basic army, it is easy to have one army cost the same as your entire X-Wing collection through 8 waves... which will be outdated/neutered by the next time your codex is released, or outclassed rapidly by newer releases.

2, horribly outdated and imbalanced rules. It doesn't strictly follow the "latest codex = greatest codex" but it's **** close. It is pretty close also to "newest model kits = most powerful units." Further, if you aren't some flavor of Space Marine, you are horribly outclassed. Slow, random, wildly imbalanced gameplay. Many armies severally underpowered and others overpowered. Imagine playing X-Wing where your entire squad was non-upgraded Scyks against Whisper, Vader, Soontir, and Palpatine because the point costs were so incredibly out of whack between armies. X-Wing has occasional balance issues, but NOTHING like 40K had, even during it's "best" times.

3, an open-hatred of competitive type play, thereby relieving them of any impetus to balance their armies. The tournament scene has become a joke and was never that great to begin with. Once 6th Edition came, it all but died under the weight of "forging a narrative" style gameplay and horrible, game-lengthening rules.

4, terrible customer service and overall mistreatment of the customer, even beyond pricing. They banish online sales, they no longer have a customer service/bits department, they are slow and contradictory on FAQs (if they even respond at all), and treat you like a cash cow. Yes, it's a business, these are all businesses, but some companies try to succeed through quality and service (like FFG, Privateer, etc.) and some by the arrogance of having something in-demand.

5, severe decline in quality of the models. Many of the newer kits are ridiculous looking, and I feel the overall quality of their line has gone downhill. I can only assume that they have lost some of their best modelers (perhaps they treat employees as well as customers), but whatever the reason, they have been extremely hit or miss, whereas a decade ago, they were the unquestioned leader.

6, ease of entry, pre-painted, pre-assembled, etc. All the points people have made above, with the caveat that X-Wing, despite hiccups, is well balanced (not perfect, but they try) and actually gives a crap about trying to improve and supporting casual and competitive play equally.

These are just the things that pop into my head. I'll never support a GW product ever again. If they ever make something I want, I'll buy it second-hand rather than have them see a cent of my money. I genuinely hope they go out of business and their IPs (which are exceptional in other people's hands, such as Forbidden Stars, Chaos in the Old World, Warhammer Quest Adventure Card Game, etc.) are fully engulfed by a better company such as FFG.

Sorry for the rant, they just get my rankle up.

The IGOUGO dynamic is tired these days. Watching and waiting for someone to move and attack with their entire army and then wait for your turn is just not that much fun.

This is my major problem with the game. Although it's been altered a bit now. It seems they stole something from Flames of War which also does the IGOUGO system.

Last time I played was 5th edition, but now apparently as of 7th... They have overwatch in the rules which allows you to shoot any unit that's assaulting you.

That's how FoW works and it means the other player at least has a chance to respond in some way, as of 5th IIRC there was nothing short of rolling saves for you to do during your turn. You literally sat there watching the other guy play and could do jack to stop him.

It's still not enough to get me back into 40k, the price and other stuff will keep me out of the game for good. But I did buy the Killteam:Overkill box which looks like a fun game, sort of 40k Imperial Assault. I'm also going to get into the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team. A lot of that is because with the Overkill box I have more than enough models for several kill team lists.

I always have and continue to love the IP, but I'll never spend $750+ just to field a single list.

GW kept changing the books every year. Screw up your squads. Forced to buy new models for the new squads. Charged way too frikin much for one figure. That's what's wrong with GW.

Also they borked assault you can't assault out of a transport like a rhino so you drive up get out get shot then you assault get shot fail your random charge so you can do it all over.

Turned my space wolves into yet another gun line force and I hated it, for a year and a half I tried to get some assault elements to work but to no avail.

Worse my great army is Ragnar blackmane's which is mostly bloodclaws which are worthless they hit like wet tissue.

I played 1st ed with my kids yesterday. That was good.

I love the IP, I really do.

Killteam is also still good, as at that point level the stupid stuff doesn't work/appear for the most part.

40K's problems.

Balance. There is none. Sorry but no. It's horrible, horrible things happen. No.

Model Viability. No Sisters of battle! I consider this a huge negative, reinforced yesterday when my daughter asked if there were girls, as she wanted to play girls. F**K you for that, GW.

Balance.

Price. Look, it's gonna rear it's ugly head. Hobby isn't cheap and GW gouges pretty badly. Especially in recent years . I nearly puked when I saw the sisters of battle digital codex at $45 canuckian dollars before tax. I can see this digital document being obtained via an alternate method in the immediate future...

IGOUGO is as tired as anything. We've all said it. I don't really like infinity that much either, but 40K needs some kind of mythical 8th edition which really redoes it. have it built from the ground up, skirmish onwards.

GW's stance regarding well, anything. It stinks.

Balance. I've seen some ridiculous things over the years, every edition. Invisibility spam is perhaps the worst of it. Basically, you get a psyker with a large/automatic chance of invisibility. put him in a group of grav centurious with maybe coteaz so no-one can deep strike near them to assault. and roflstomp. If their gravs don't kill everything their secondary weapons will, and it's not as if you can easily kill a 2 wound T5 enemy without ANY templates, and having to roll a 6 just to hit.

Sexism. Yeah. I am bringing this up. GW as a company are behind the times by at least 20 years. Still no sisters models, and when they do a female model it's rarely great.

Shame, some of the elf/eldar models (all ranges) are pretty good. I really like the handmaiden when painted properly. I'm not even going into the fluff. Someone needs to do the Sisters serious justice.

Balance. IGOUGO with high points mean huge amounts of army are destroyed before one player even rolls a dice, Hobo's issue with assaulting is actually an example of GW trying to fix something (I said TRYING Hobo). Otherwise Genestealers can infiltrate into a building and turn1 assault. I had this happen, pointed out to a friend they couldn't assault after leaving a building and... roflstomp happened. I've been on the other end of a Stealer roflstomp when they used to infiltrate_attack_instakill. Not fun.

Game Flow: see above, as mentioned arguments over rules happens a fair bit due to non-uniform writing, causing games to get kinda meh/negative. Larger games have too much set up.

Balance. Better hope the 'dex writer really loves your race...

Forge world is a shining beacon in the darkness, generally better rules. Not perfect but .... definitely better.

Their chapter tactics and special characters are heavenly.

Maybe they'll do sisters...

GW as a company are behind the times by at least 20 years. Still no sisters models

There's 25 different Sisters of Battle models on the GW page... they don't look that bad to me.

Unless you mean women space marines?

GW as a company are behind the times by at least 20 years. Still no sisters models

There's 25 different Sisters of Battle models on the GW page... they don't look that bad to me.

Unless you mean women space marines?

<takes deep, soothing breath>

Woohsah

woooohhhsah

Ok. Where to start.

Most of those sisters models are just shy of 20 years old, some ~15.

All are metal, therefore more expensive than finecast. Out of date casted, difficult to modify/work with.

Because of the age, they are scaled 90's style, so shorter than guardsmen all.

I'm not getting into fem space marine territory.

Most of those sisters models are just shy of 20 years old, some ~15.

Oh I didn't know that. Just figured they were normal models.

I'm not getting into fem space marine territory.

Tis something best left alone.

Model Viability. No Sisters of battle! I consider this a huge negative, reinforced yesterday when my daughter asked if there were girls, as she wanted to play girls. F**K you for that, GW.

You could convert an eldar army. Half of the kabalite and harlequin torsos are female, so a little bit of bits site searching wouldn't be that bad. Bonus of Eldar as well is that with the allies matrix all three flavours of eldar can ally as much as they want. Banshees in raiders is fun, wraithguard in raiders even more so, but I see your issue.

But I do want to see the sisters back as a proper army. I can't see forge world doing them as a full range, but maybe a few bits and pieces. Have you taken a look at the Horus Heresy range? The game is infinitely more balanced than regular 40k due to being by and far marine vs marine with some extra Legion specific stuff, and it's fairly expensive at Forge World prices unless you go to a third party like Chinabay, but it's a much more fun system. That said, I do still love running my Genestealer Tyranid army. Even without first turn charge I generally have fun, and the Genestealer cult stuff really made my day.

GW as a company are behind the times by at least 20 years. Still no sisters models

There's 25 different Sisters of Battle models on the GW page... they don't look that bad to me.

Unless you mean women space marines?

The Sisters models are still quite nice, but something like £6 a model is pretty mental.

I genuinely like 30K, and agree there is much better balance. - Hence my comments regarding Forge World.

Tonight I will be converting some Dreamforge Valkir into Sororitas.

Here's the #1 problem of Warhammer 40,000:

Games Workshop's business practices have driven away all our players.

This could be a local phenomenon. But our club was heavy into Warhammer 40k. We were one of the largest in the area. We even had a tiny sidebar in one issue of White Dwarf. Andy Chambers played in one of our events at a con. We held big Rogue Trader events. We would send half a dozen players to nearby Grand Tournaments. That was way back in 3rd edition times.

Most of our players have migrated to Warmachine, Flames of War, Malifaux, and, of course, X-Wing.

If more people were playing it, then it's very possible some of our players would've stuck around. But there are too many better options now. Better ways to spend 3 hours playing. And the dozens of hours just to prep a decent sized army. It's a huge time suck that doesn't reward you.