This came up in a game tonight and I'm pretty sure I know how this works but want to confirm before a Store Championship tomorrow.

Dengar (and any ship with R5-P8) is shot at and destroyed by a lower pilot skill ship who is in his arc. Does Dengar (and/or R5-P8) get his return fire shot?

This came up in a game tonight and I'm pretty sure I know how this works but want to confirm before a Store Championship tomorrow.

Dengar (and any ship with R5-P8) is shot at and destroyed by a lower pilot skill ship who is in his arc. Does Dengar (and/or R5-P8) get his return fire shot?

If a ship has a number of Damage cards equal to its hull value, it is destroyed.

A ship is destroyed when it has a number of Damage cards equal to its hull value or when it flees the battlefield. When a ship is destroyed, remove it from the play area, discard all of its Damage cards, and return all of its tokens to the supply.

So, by my understanding, the ship would be removed during the Deal Damage step of the attack, before "After defending" and "After you perform an attack" abilities trigger. The two exceptions to this are "Fel's Wrath" and the Simultaneous Attack Rule.

There's still some situations where the attack itself doesn't destroy you but "After you perform an attack" abilities (such as Rexler Brath or Darth Vader {crew}) would destroy you. In these cases it depends on whether those abilities use the same timing as "After defending" (in which case initiative decides), or if (as the Valen Rudor FAQ indicates) "After defending" occurs before "After you perform an attack". (See my thread on the subject for more on that rabbit hole)

EDIT: So the short answer to your specific question is no, if destroyed by a lower PS ship, "After defending" abilities won't have a chance to trigger.

This came up in a game tonight and I'm pretty sure I know how this works but want to confirm before a Store Championship tomorrow.

Dengar (and any ship with R5-P8) is shot at and destroyed by a lower pilot skill ship who is in his arc. Does Dengar (and/or R5-P8) get his return fire shot?

If a ship has a number of Damage cards equal to its hull value, it is destroyed.

A ship is destroyed when it has a number of Damage cards equal to its hull value or when it flees the battlefield. When a ship is destroyed, remove it from the play area, discard all of its Damage cards, and return all of its tokens to the supply.

So, by my understanding, the ship would be removed during the Deal Damage step of the attack, before "After defending" and "After you perform an attack" abilities trigger. The two exceptions to this are "Fel's Wrath" and the Simultaneous Attack Rule.

There's still some situations where the attack itself doesn't destroy you but "After you perform an attack" abilities (such as Rexler Brath or Darth Vader {crew}) would destroy you. In these cases it depends on whether those abilities use the same timing as "After defending" (in which case initiative decides), or if (as the Valen Rudor FAQ indicates) "After defending" occurs before "After you perform an attack". (See my thread on the subject for more on that rabbit hole)

EDIT: So the short answer to your specific question is no, if destroyed by a lower PS ship, "After defending" abilities won't have a chance to trigger.

I agree that the destruction of a ship is during the Deal Damage step. And whenit has enough Damage cards on it, it's gone. I think unless Dengar or R5-P8's ship still has some hull left, the destruction would remove it from the play area immediately and there would be no opportunity for an "after defending" attack.

Also, from Card Abilities, page 8:

When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are card abilities whose effects have already been triggered and specify a time when the effect ends, such as “until the end of the Combat phase.”

It wouldn't matter if the attacking ship was higher or lower PS, if the defending ship is destroyed, it would need still to be kept in play via the Simultaneous Attack Rule in order to make an "after defending" style attack back. Otherwise it's just gone in a fiery explosion.

What about this rule from Page 8:
When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are

no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are

card abilities whose effects have already been

triggered and specify a time when the effect

ends, such as “until the end of the Combat

phase.”

The trigger for both Dengar and R5-P8 is defending, thus it would seem the ship/droid could return fire before being removed from the table...

I guess you could srgue argue the ship isnt in your arc because your ship isnt on the board anymore

What about this rule from Page 8:

When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are

no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are

card abilities whose effects have already been

triggered and specify a time when the effect

ends, such as “until the end of the Combat

phase.”

The trigger for both Dengar and R5-P8 is defending, thus it would seem the ship/droid could return fire before being removed from the table...

No, the trigger is after defending. The ship is destroyed when it has received enough Damage cards equal to, or exceeding it's Hull value. The only rule that would keep it in play is the Simultaneous Attack Rule, which requires that it hasn't had it's opportunity to attack yet.

If it's outright destroyed, it's removed and doesn't get to trigger.

What about this rule from Page 8:

When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are

no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are

card abilities whose effects have already been

triggered and specify a time when the effect

ends, such as “until the end of the Combat

phase.”

The trigger for both Dengar and R5-P8 is defending, thus it would seem the ship/droid could return fire before being removed from the table...

The important part of that rule is the "effect ends" part - neither of those abilities specify when the effect ends, only when it triggers.

No, the trigger is after defending. The ship is destroyed when it has received enough Damage cards equal to, or exceeding it's Hull value. The only rule that would keep it in play is the Simultaneous Attack Rule, which requires that it hasn't had it's opportunity to attack yet.

If it's outright destroyed, it's removed and doesn't get to trigger.

But isn't damage dealt after you defend? How else would you know enough damage got through to destroy Dengar if it wasn't after he defended? I feel like your logic is flawed here.

No, the trigger is after defending. The ship is destroyed when it has received enough Damage cards equal to, or exceeding it's Hull value. The only rule that would keep it in play is the Simultaneous Attack Rule, which requires that it hasn't had it's opportunity to attack yet.

If it's outright destroyed, it's removed and doesn't get to trigger.

But isn't damage dealt after you defend? How else would you know enough damage got through to destroy Dengar if it wasn't after he defended? I feel like your logic is flawed here.

Damage is dealt in step 7 of the attack (Rules Reference, pages 4-5), so the attack isn't over until after that step. The rules for destroying a ship state that it's removed (aside from the noted exceptions) when it receives enough damage, which would be during the Deal Damage step, before the attack is finished.

The general consensus seems to be that "After defending" is after the attack is finished. I can see how some could interpret it to be sooner, somewhere between steps 5-7 of the attack, but I very much doubt that's the intent.

No, the trigger is after defending. The ship is destroyed when it has received enough Damage cards equal to, or exceeding it's Hull value. The only rule that would keep it in play is the Simultaneous Attack Rule, which requires that it hasn't had it's opportunity to attack yet.

If it's outright destroyed, it's removed and doesn't get to trigger.

But isn't damage dealt after you defend? How else would you know enough damage got through to destroy Dengar if it wasn't after he defended? I feel like your logic is flawed here.

The word "defending" causes confusions because it is not defined in the Rules Reference, sadly. Many people interpret it as "rolling defense dice" but they are wrong. There are many cards exist which using the "when defending" term and they trigger in various steps during an attack.

Sensor Jammer: When defending you may change 1 of the attackers <hit> results into a <focus> result.

This card triggers in the modify attack dice step, before rolling defense dice.

Prince Xizor: When defending, a friendly ship at Range 1 may suffer 1 uncanceled <hit> or <crit> result instead of you.

This ability triggers in the deal damage phase, so dealing damage is part of the defending.

So my conclusion: Defending starts, when someone declares you as a target, and ends with the deal damage step of the attack sequence. It is basically equivalent with "someone is performing an attack against you".

So by these conclusions does Dengar get to return fire when he's received enough damage cards to destroy him or not?

So by these conclusions does Dengar get to return fire when he's received enough damage cards to destroy him or not?

Only if he's kept alive by the Simultaneous Attack Rule.

During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed. If a ship would be destroyed and it has the same pilot skill value as the active ship but has not had an opportunity to attack yet, it is not destroyed. Instead, it retains its Damage cards and continues to function as normal, suffering any effects on its Damage cards. After it has had its opportunity to attack, it is destroyed and removed from the play area.

• Even if the ship did not have a valid target for an attack, it is removed after its opportunity to attack passes.
• While the Simultaneous Attack Rule keeps a ship in the play area, that ship’s abilities and Damage cards remain active.
• After a ship has resolved its opportunity to attack, before it is destroyed, it can resolve any abilities that trigger after performing an attack.

I just thought of another odd situation, if Dengar has defended, does this count as "an opportunity to attack"? For example, (Empire has initiative) Darth Vader attacks Dengar, Dengar triggers, then Soontir Fel attacks Dengar, doing enough damage to kill him, does the Simultaneous Attack Rule still keep Dengar alive for his normal attack?

I just thought of another odd situation, if Dengar has defended, does this count as "an opportunity to attack"? For example, (Empire has initiative) Darth Vader attacks Dengar, Dengar triggers, then Soontir Fel attacks Dengar, doing enough damage to kill him, does the Simultaneous Attack Rule still keep Dengar alive for his normal attack?

That's an interesting question. I recall it came up in another thread, but there were no consensus. I think if we strictly apply the rules, that it is on opportunity of attack, so Dengar does not get his normal attack. Though it is quite unfair in my opinion, because other pilots gets to use their ability and Dengar is not, so it should be clarified in the FAQ.

So by these conclusions does Dengar get to return fire when he's received enough damage cards to destroy him or not?

Only if he's kept alive by the Simultaneous Attack Rule.

During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed. If a ship would be destroyed and it has the same pilot skill value as the active ship but has not had an opportunity to attack yet, it is not destroyed. Instead, it retains its Damage cards and continues to function as normal, suffering any effects on its Damage cards. After it has had its opportunity to attack, it is destroyed and removed from the play area.

• Even if the ship did not have a valid target for an attack, it is removed after its opportunity to attack passes.
• While the Simultaneous Attack Rule keeps a ship in the play area, that ship’s abilities and Damage cards remain active.
• After a ship has resolved its opportunity to attack, before it is destroyed, it can resolve any abilities that trigger after performing an attack.

I just thought of another odd situation, if Dengar has defended, does this count as "an opportunity to attack"? For example, (Empire has initiative) Darth Vader attacks Dengar, Dengar triggers, then Soontir Fel attacks Dengar, doing enough damage to kill him, does the Simultaneous Attack Rule still keep Dengar alive for his normal attack?

Now assuming no one has boosted PS, then the Simultaneous Attack Rule would indeed keep around because he has not had his normal opportunity to attack. He's had his special ability counter-attack, but that is not his normal attack that he would get in the usual PS sequence.

So I would see it going like this:

1. Darth attacks
2. Dengar's ability allows his counter-attack on Darth
3. Soontir attacks and destroys Dengar
4. SAR triggers and Dengar attacks before being removed from the play area.

Keep in mind that any damage cards that he's picked up from either attack will be active and may hamper him.