Following my review of the Talisman Dungeon (what seems like years ago), here is my commentary on The Frostmarch expansion for Revised 4th Edition of the game. Some of the points have been raised and discussed in detail by other commentators, so I won't go into those very much (eg player characters, alternative endings, Warlock's Quests). I have broken the review into sections, though obviously there is a lot of overlap between the individual topics. I am not very familiar with 3rd Edition so there may be incomplete references to it. Also, I am not going into the details of gameplay. And yes, once more there will be digressions...

Flavour

So, with a name like Frostmarch, I guess I was expecting lots of snow and ice-related card names and artwork. I feel that with any expansion theme it is important to fulfil the promise of the title, while incorporating plenty of non-themed features which will fit smoothly into any Talisman setting. None of the new characters follows the cold-weather theme; it would have been nice to have at least one such, perhaps a Barbarian from the northern wastes. In all, the cards break down like this (can't claim to 100% accuracy and some cards are debatable):

• Cards which reflect the icy theme in name, art and functionality: 2 Spells and 6 Adventure cards (eg Cryomancer, Freeze), plus the Ice Queen alternative ending
• Name and art only: 15 Adventure cards (eg Yeti, Shiver Nymph)
• Art only: 1 Spell and 3 Adventure cards (eg Pack of Wolves, Horn of Summoning)
• Others: 2 Adventure cards (Ragnarok and Fate Bound which both reference Norse mythology but do not have frosty art or effects)

So that's 3 Spells and 26 Adventure Cards, surprisingly low I think. I would have been happy with a few more on-theme cards. The main on-theme mechanic, by-the-way, is missing a turn (ie being frozen or turned to stone) which comes up more frequently than usual in this set.

Of course, there are also a number of Spells and Adventure cards which support the Warlock's Quests sub-theme. The Warlock character is linked to the Quests sub-theme (though to my mind it is confusing to have both a player-character and a boardspace character with the same name, and certainly the artwork on the alternative ending card suggests that the two Warlocks are not the same person).

Production

Generally, the artwork is up to Fantasy Flight's usual high standards. As with other expansions, some of the pictures are rather brutally cropped and the small details are hard to see. Disappointingly, several cards re-use artwork from previous editions. Of course, this is to be expected with Bags of Gold, and even the False Grail's use of the Holy Grail art seems thematically appropriate. However, Dwarf Smith is the same art as Dungeon's Weaponsmith and the new Event, Divine Protection, has the same art (reversed) as Dungeon's spell, Divine Intervention. It's only a couple of cards and hopefully it won't happen too often in future.

The main problem I have with the production of Frostmarch is the character figures. They are at a smaller scale than the previous sets. This is most noticeable with Necromancer and Warlock who are both more diminutive than say Sage or Wizard, jarringly so in my opinion. The figures also feel less sturdy, and in my pack the Leprechaun figure has been bent forward so that his jaunty jig-like pose has become a pronounced stoop (probably from all that gold he's lunking around).

Integration with Main Game and Other Expansions

This is fairly straightforward as there isn't a separate board or card deck as with Dungeon. There are some very welcome toading opportunities and of course the new Fate mechanic gets a look in. There are a handful of Adventure and Spell cards which specifically relate to Warlock's Quests, which, with the new alternative ending, help to integrate this option into the main game (the first Quest cards in The Reaper expansion seemed like a clumsy add-on.) None of the new Spells or Adventure cards (if I remember correctly) has specific reference to the Dungeon; this means there is now a smaller chance of finding a Dungeon Doorway or other entry point. (Aside - I have become aware that across all the various board spaces, Spells and Adventure cards which allow teleportation or movement to specific locations, some destinations are much more common eg Crags, City, while some never get a mention eg Desert; nice to see at least that there is a Warlock Quest which specifically mentions the Black Knight, a rarely visited part of the board.)

Game Balance

Overall, the expansion is fairly balanced, though personally I would like a few more powerful Enemies. There seem to be rather too many Enemies with Craft or Strength of only 1 or 2 and no special abilities. In particular, there are four new Spirits of Craft 1 with no abilities which to me seems like redundancy. Surely such evocative creatures as Barrow Wight (with its 'Lord of the Rings' heritage) and Rimespawn (a bizarre, Lovecraftian beast) deserve to be more powerful or at least have a quirky ability? Although I understand the need to maintain percentages as more and more cards are added to the decks, I think it would only add to the game if creatures such as Frost Drake (functionally identical to Dragon) and Frost Giant (functionally identical to Giant) had a bit more flavour than simply adding a thematic adjective to their name. Sometimes, having multiple cards which are functionally identical (in order to maintain balance without sacrificing variety), works very well eg Lion, Bear, Ape and Raging Bull are all Animals with Strength 3 and no special abilities. But for Spirits, non-humanoid Monsters and Dragons I find uniformity less satisfying.

The game is still awash with Gold. Frostmarch has plenty of it, from Leprechaun's special ability to the interesting combination of Treasure Map and Treasure Chest. One of the least exciting things I remember about my first few games of Talisman, (back in 1983!), was turning over a Bag of Gold card. Frostmarch does add some new shopping opportunities with two Pedlars with eight items to choose from (compared to 2nd Edition's single Pedlar with six items - prices have changed too.) Also, you can buy and sell Spells at the Arcane Archive (two of those). Expectancy is growing that a new Talisman City expansion will provided ample opportunities to spend, spend, spend! (Aside - I hope when the Taxation event card is finally reprinted, it will be truly harsh!!!) (Second Aside - any chance of an alternative win condition which includes the accumulation of vast wealth? This would boost the power of many cards from Alchemist to Raiders (yay!)).

Player Interaction

Frostmarch has a fair variety of cards which encourage player interaction, amongst the most notable being the Toadify! spell, some of the Quests, and the new version of Howl of the Wendigo (more on that below). Perhaps the addition of new cards to the main Adventure deck will draw players back to the main board and away from the Dungeon for a while...

Sources

Reprints, both exact and modified, are drawn from 2nd Edition (The Expansion, Adventure, Dungeon, Dragons, White Dwarf magazine), 3rd Edition (Mountain, Forest, Tower), and Revised 4th Edition (Reaper). Shiver Nymph is the new Spirit equivalent of Ekor from Reaper. Holy Grail gets both an impostor (False Grail) and an evil twin (Chalice of Shadow). Lake of Visions continues the tradition of Places with four free resources waiting to be grabbed. Of course, the Ice Queen alternative ending and her Palace are both based on 3rd Edition Mountain.

For sources outside Talisman, we have 'Lord of the Rings' (Barrow Wight), Norse Mythology (eg Ymir's Glow, Ragnarok), Lovecraft (Rimespawn, Sky Screecher), Magic The Gathering (Planeswalker), Greek Mythology (eg Pegasus, Centaur, Medusa), Oriental Mythology (Eastern Dragon, Yeti), Medieval European folklore (eg Basilisk), Native American folklore (Howl of the Wendigo).

Spells

I love Spells. The Frostmarch batch includes some variations on past themes (eg gaining and losing Strength or Craft), a handful of new ideas (eg Hydra Spell, Path of Destiny) and some nice powerful effects (eg Obliterate, Marked for Glory). Overall, a fairly solid group. Stars of the set are the two copies of Toadify!

Reprints

This is becoming a complex topic for Revised 4th Edition discussion. Reprints now fall into a number of categories, some of which are not really reprints at all, save in name. I have given examples from Frostmarch here, but the other expansions have them too.

• Exact functional reprints with the same name (eg Lich, Centaur [3rd Edition], Pack of Wolves)
• Modified functional reprints with the same name (eg Bag of Carrying, Bolster, Altar)
• Exact functional reprints with a new name (eg Ice Elk, Frost Giant, Apparition)
• Cards with new functionality which use the same name as a previous card (eg Howl of the Wendi[n]go, Winged Boots, Metamorph)
• Cards with a new name and functionality which are closely based on a past card (eg Royal Decree, Syphon Strength)
• Reprints which have changed card type (none in Frostmarch but examples are Lone Dwarf and Mule)

Events

Highlights include Fate Bound which reduces all players' Fate to zero, and Ragnarok, a board-sweeper. Ymir's Glow is a more powerful version of Astral Conjunction (4th Edition version). Planeswalker is unusual in being an Event which more often than not will stick around the board like a mad teleporting Stranger. (Still waiting for the Event which reads "All players become slimy little Toads for three turns")

Followers

Porter returns and I note that he is very slightly different to Dungeon's Miner (which is a reprint of the original 2nd Edition Porter). Herbalist and Hieromartyr are nice innovations, useful but not overpowered. Champion returns in slightly weakened form (no Craft value) and with a sex-change!

Enemies

The Animals are disappointing in terms of power and variety. Why is a Winter Wolf weaker than a Wolf? Why is an Ice Bear weaker than a Bear? Frostmarch is the first set for Revised 4th Edition to have an Enemy - Elemental, and also adds a second Enemy - Cultist to the main Adventure deck (more of both of these please). The Cryomancer deserves top marks for design. I wonder if enough Cultists and Elementals will be added to the game to justify having characters with abilities which relate specifically to them? Would expect to see a few Cultists in the City...

Good to see Eastern (aka Chinese) Dragon back, but Frost Drake is another vanilla reprint - no breath weapon? Spirits and Monsters are also a mixed bag of vanilla with a few more exciting enemies. Trickster is a nice PvP enabler. Lich is a personal favourite reprint. Basilisk is fantastic: a fairly weak Enemy but with a truly deadly special ability which is not dependant on the player character's power level. The set is missing at least one truly big Enemy (Craft or Strength of 8+); something comparable to Reaper's Cerberus or Lord of the Pit would have been fun.

Objects (Magic and Mundane)

Generally some very useful and not overpowered items. Winged Boots get a makeover (the 2nd Edition ability would not have contributed anything new to Revised 4th Edition). Ancient Artefact is back though slightly weakened (in my mind, this is one of the classic cards which epitomises the randomness and high-risk wackiness which are key to Talisman's flavour.) Rather more gold and gold-producing objects than I think are necessary. Bag of Carrying is less vulnerable and is now a half-capacity version of Bag of Holding (a Dungeon Treasure card). A good selection of weapons and armour, Alignment-related cards (hope to see more of this in future), and another treasure which grants a Character's special ability (Astrolabe = Gypsy). Not sure why some items are classed as non-magical Objects as they have a magical flavour (eg Helm of Warding, Lucky Charm). Treasure Map is a reprint of Treasure Chest from Talisman Dragons (2nd Edition), while the new Treasure Chest has a new ability. The Treasure Map/Chest combo effect is another innovation.

Strangers

Good to see Pegasus, Centaur and Pedlar back. Lore Master and Dwarf Smith appear to be added for game balance, ensuring that the increased Adventure deck size doesn't restrict opportunities to obtain Spells, Armour and Weapons. Talismonger combines the abilities of several existing board characters and Strangers (presumably visiting her is optional - the card doesn't say). Goblin Sapper is a great card with the triple virtues of being destructively fun, another chance to spend gold, and enabling players to affect the board. Also, I presume he counts towards the Goblin King's strength, even though he's not an Enemy.

Places

Lake of Visions (cache of four Warlock's Quests) and Arcane Archive (buy and sell Spells) are both useful gameplay enablers and get two copies each. The Archive solves the problem of being stuck with an uncastable Spell. Least interesting is Mystic Portal (I guess another teleportation device helps to speed the game up, but the possible destinations are the usual suspects; would have liked some more unexpected possibilities eg Desert, Hidden Valley, Monster Pits). The toadacious Transmutor is another classic addition to the Talisman world with a lot of 2nd edition flavour. (Could someone clarify for me whether encounters at Places are optional or compulsory? Some of the cards say 'may', some don't, but from a flavour point of view some cards would seem to work better if they were explicitly stated to be mandatory or optional.)

Further Expansion

For flavour, a few more enemies and inhabitants of the frozen wastes would be welcome, scattered amongst further small expansions (Revenge of the Ice Queen anyone?).

Many commentators are hopeful/confident that City will be the next expansion. I'm not sure. I'd be prepared to wait if it means that set is given a thorough revision to overcome some of the weaknesses of 2nd and 3rd edition. With the appearance of a handful of 3rd Edition expansion cards in Frostmarch, does that mean we won't be getting a new Mountain or Forest? Personally I would like to see a combined Mountain and Forest set called something like 'Talisman Wilderness'.

Conclusion

As a Talisman fanatic since the beginning, Frostmarch is a must-have for me. It's a balanced set with a smattering of weird, wacky and more powerful cards. I would say that of the three Revised 4th Edition expansions so far, Reaper is essential, Dungeon is excellent if you like additional boards, Frostmarch is good but not essential. However, if you aren't keen on extra boards or don't have the funds, I would say take Frostmarch over Dungeon. If nothing else, you need to get your hands on a Toadify! spell. My rating: 8.5/10.

That concludes my commentary. Thanks for reading!

My tastes differ from yours in conclusions and what is most sought for play; I have no interest in more godhood effects for "players" and prefer mechanics grounded more in the "characters" as if they were actually travelling and adventuring into more of the unknown. But it was still a good breakdown touching on things I had and hadn't noticed in hearing from others. It probably took you some time to put it together, and I appreciate the effort in sharing it with us.

Great review!

Pretty much how i felt about Frostmarch also. In my opinion the enemies were the biggest disappointment here. Lots of great opponents, but very few new effects. Especially as most of them just scream for some sort special ability....

(and hi everyone! new to this forum )

Nice review.

You have made some good points there.

1: I also don't like, if cards have the same artwork again, so i hope too, that most of the cards will have their own artwork in the future

2: Frostmarch comes indeed with a lot of low strength/craft enemies. I wonder if FFG can ever fix this problem and throw in a lot of powerful enemies in the deck.

The Decks grows more and more, so we really need it.

On top of that, i saw that the Barrow Night and Apparition have decrease in their craft. Normally they are craft 5 and craft 3.

But let's face it.. there are also enemies in the deck that are a little stronger than previous editions, so i don;t want to make a problem of that.

But stronger enemies is just what i want for the main board..

3: Spending Gold is a real problem in Talisman. Most people know what we are talking about. Another thing that need to be fixed

-

My only concern is, that i have the feeling, that Frostmarch is not suppose to be a dangerous expansion.

I hope i get the Frostmarch soon, so i can get a look at some Event cards.

We get 84 adventure cards with the Frostmarch expansion, and this will only make it more difficult, to balance this in future expansions, if we want a lot of more stronger enemies, and dangerous events or other things.

Well, at least Dungeon is dangerous enough. In our games it has been very rare to survive it through, but then again, we have mostly played Talisman more as an adventure, not as competition. So lots of roleplaying involved, not so much strategy, mostly because i am the only one with lots of experience with Talisman....

Well, when we get the City expansion and it gets easier to get equipment, the main board HAS to be increased in difficulty, or games will get boring....

Shangfu said:

The part that makes talisman a fun and nice game, is that you never know what you will draw.

But if we are only drawing friendly cards, and low power enemies, with lot's of objects, then it will become pretty boring..

If we compare Frostmarch to the Reaper expansion, then Frostmarch have less stronger enemies than Reaper, and more objects than the reaper.

Events have also been decrease, and i expect no goods of it

And that's just the point that i (and maybe others..) don't want.

Where is the excitement and dangerous adventure..?

PS: The Dungeon is only dangerous because of the draw 2 spaces and many powerful enemies.

Velhart said:

Should end quicker though. Even more so with the "eliminate end game" alternate endings.

Velhart said:

There are the other players of course . Of course, if your play style is that at the start everyone says "let's not attack each other and just boost ourselves for 2 hours, then see if we might go for the Crown", won't get any danger from there.

Not around here naturally. Any time you find yourself at 1 Life, people suddenly start closing in on you, just itching to kill you off.

Many thanks for the comments guys and for taking the time to read my article. Always interested to hear others' opinions and ideas about the future development of the game, especially on balancing abstraction v immersion. I enjoy the adventuring flavour of Talisman; going for the win is not the main focus - although I tend to play with very competitive people who enjoy scuppering each others' plans. For me, Talisman makes a virtue out of randomness and variety.

Dam... you are severely oversimplifying V's comments as well as twisting them out of context. Although in doing so you (re)made one of his points for him...

A quicker (meaning too quick) game is boring, and no endgame, long or short, will fix that. Even a long one is still the shortest part of the game and only involves the minority of the players on its advantage side. Boring again.

JCHendee said:

Quicker games are not automatically more boring, especially if everyone is keeping their eye on the ball. Standard CoC ending has a certain tension to it, more so if you managed to get your less than godlike character to the Crown and now the other chars that are better statted and equipped are making a beeline toward the Crown. Will they die first or will they make it to the Crown and wipe you from existance. All the Frostmarch endings nerf that aspect, which is sad IMO.

Nice review...although I am still awaiting for my copy after pre ordering it! (will not be useing that company again...)

As for the gold problem could we not just take out the gold cards from the adventure pile or is it not that simple? (sorry, as I dont have frostmarch yet...)

JCHendee said:

Some of the most exciting games I've played were ended around 2 hours. One player takes a gamble and makes it through the portal of power and this makes all of the other players scramble to catch up. The most boring situations are long games when one player can clearly win but just sits around flaunting his power. Another really boring situation is when the board gets filled up with unbeatable enemies (thank you very much dragons expansion) and people just run around the board trying not to die.

JC, if I understand your comments you're saying that if games are too quick they are boring and if games are too long they are boring.
So if a game's playing time is perfectly balanced it is not boring? I figured this conclusion was so painfully obvious that it didn't need to be said.

Dam said:

Are you saying that the new ending cards automatically make the first person to reach the crown win the game? That is certainly the case with the warlock ending because that has special game start rules and makes the game play really different. This is mostly the case with the new crown ending because players don't have to roll for the crown. This is absolutely not the case with the ice queen ending, quite the opposite actually. The ice queen freezes people who lose fights and makes them lose turns. This allows other players to try to catch up and win the game by killing her themselves. I really like the warlock ending because it feels really different but I think the ice queen is the most exciting because it gives other players a chance to catch up to the crown.

Carrion Prince said:

For how many players? In the 2E days, that was maybe an average for 2-3 players = typically about an hour per player. If you're talking about 4+, that's leaning to a fast game.... but still about right for an evening's enjoyment.... for some.

Carrion Prince said:

Which has nothing to do with the game or the endgame but the player involved... who may or may not be flaunting it. That's not game mechanics; that's just one player who got lucky and may have even felt he missed out on some real challange in advancement. Most of my crew hate it when they get pumped up before they've had a chance to actually do anything.

Carrion Prince said:

I LOVE THAT! That's the tension IN THE GAME instead of put into an endgame to compensate for the game's main play being too short and too easy.

Carrion Prince said:

Yes, especially since short these days still isn't short enough (may the Powers of the Alignments forbid that) to actually start another game. And after a short game, my crew just kind of stares at each other, since we're older now and have early long days to start in the morning or teenagers and above to look after.

Carrion Prince said:

No... it might be for some others, but not for me so long as everyone is doing something... having adventures in "playing" and not just in the endgame. I remember a game of 7 players in the 2E days... it lasted 9 hours using the base game and 5 expansions. We had taken out the Talismans from the adventure deck, leaving only the four others to be acquired. It was WONDERFUL! Everyone was tired as hell afterward, but we hung around anyway until nearly dawn because it was a game filled with so many surprises and turnabouts in play and not just the end that it took two rounds of beers and wine just to recount them all. I doubt most modern players have the staying power for that. Twenty years later, I still do... in spirit and wishfulness if not in strength and stamina.

Balancing a good game is not about average game time... but when it's too short, it's likely dull. There's less room for actual enjoyment of the playing itself. When it is just push, push, push for the endgame, nobody actually cares about the game along the way. When that happens, the game isn't what it was meant to be and is just an excuse for the endgame alone.

ASIDE: Endgame uber-Monsters are okay; they are stock and trade of the game and we should have them. The Queen is not bad as described, since she gives a little extra chance for other adventurers to catch a weak or moderately built up leader. Still, that's back to depending on endgames... to pure focus on the win by any means and not really giving a **** about the play along the way.

The only endgame so far to offer (1) something new in paradigm and (2) new for game play and not just endgame... is the WQ. Thank goodness! It put the "play" instead of just the "win" back in the "playing," the focus a tiny bit back into CvC (but not enough) as much as obsessive PvP. And all in all, one can still use almost any other endgame along with it... standard CoC, first one there, or random draw uber-Enemies once we get more of them.... or make them ourselves. Maybe even some other random endgame paradigms will come along akin to Strangers, Events, etc.

Archdruid said:

I read the rules online (my copy is expected today or tomorrow) but didn't see any new Fate echanic, I assumed we'd be getting this later. Did I seriously miss this?

I liked the review! The City expansion, when we get it, should justify the gold rush. I think the Frost Queen NPC home brew from TI should unify the ice theme nicely.

Cheers!

Carrion Prince said:

Warlock ending is auto-win when you reach Crown. Crown and Sceptre is all but auto (need specific cards/circumstances to make a comeback). Ice Queen you fight on the turn you arrive as many times as you either A) you kill her or B) get a stand-off or loss. Sure, she looks tougher than most, 12 Str and Craft, but again, players get to choose which stat to use, so I see endgame being the turn the first char arrives at the Crown. Summary endgames: Warlock 0 turns; CaS X turns (probably not more than 6), Ice Queen: 0-1 turns (depending on how you look at it). Normal end game takes I'd say 20 turns on average.

Dam said:

Ice Queen is four turns minimum.

crimhead said:

The IQ card says when you take a life from her "immediately attack her again".

crimhead said:

Apologies for any misunderstanding, I was referring to the fact that there are a number of new Adventure cards which allow players to lose or gain Fate points. There are also a few single-use Objects with Fate-like effects (Lucky Charms, Celestial Bauble). No sign of developing the use of light and dark Fate tokens yet.

JCHendee said:

Well said

I love this too, and this is just one of the things, why i am complaining about Frostmarch.

I still want to take a better look at the cards, as soon as i have it

One thing Frostmarch might accidentally do is balance the Gladiator more. FM adds 5 Followers in 84 Adventure cards, making Follower draws less likely.

OT: Speaking of the Gladiator, on my way home from the store, I was thinking about the Gladiator and how to balance him. One idea that came to mind was to limit the # of trained Followers to his current Craft (not including points from Objects and Followers), so starting Gladiator could use 2 Followers in battle for +2.

Interesting limitations mechanic, Dam. I like it. And the paradigm beneath it can be soundly applied to other characters. Where a character has the ability to take on more than one Enemy as a follower, or covert a non-combative follower for either Strength or Craft based bonus in Battle or Psychic combat, its other attribute can be used to set the limit. Would the Ogre Chieftain be another possible place to apply this balancer? Limit him to Enemy Followers (Strength) according to his level of Craft (leadership, will, cunning, etc.)?

Just trying to bring this back around to focus on Frostmarch components.

Dam said:

Indeed.

I wonder how it will play with getting followers.

Dam said:

This is a great idea Dam, I like it, what I don't like is why you choose Craft to falsly represent Charisma? A very strong sorcerer does not inspire people to instantly follow him, you would find them more fearing and staying as far away as possible from his path! Maybe the new fate token can be more credible as a mechanic for your idea than craft, something along the line of: the number of trained follower would equal the number of light fate token a character has admissible to provide a + bonus, 3 light fate token = you can train 3 follower so +3 in battle.

Awaiting your input....

Cheers

Old Master said:

Doesn't have to be Charisma. It could be Intelligence to direct the trained Followers to attack where the Gladiator wants them, knowledge of tactics, etc. Sorcerer can rule by fear as well, no need to have kitty-gloves on, just harsh brutal shows of dominance of will (or brawn). As long as the Followers do what they are told, that is enough, they don't have to like it .

In a Knights of the Dinner Table #27, there was a strip where the characters got henchmen and discussed how to ensure loyalty. The ruleslawyer stated that "severe buttwhupping every 6-8 days", essentially his method was, as another char in the strip pointed out, battered spouse syndrome.

Not condoning it or anything, just saying fear and violence can get the needed results same as knightly virtues.