It all depends on how you want to play.

If someone wants to reject a casual MtG game because there opponent's deck isn't good enough then I'd strongly suggest they help that other player get better and get of their high horse. If you expect every deck you play against to be tournament quality and to use proxies if that is the only way to do so I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to play with you. Of course in MtG I believe the power level in things swings far more than it does in X-Wing and in MtG the only "luck" involved is in what cards you draw and there is plenty you can do to control that.

I wonder what "motley collection of ships" one would need to face to think that their squadron is "too good" to risk being shown up by it? Maybe that collection is the undiscovered metagame breaker. Maybe the person behind it is good enough that they are just playing it because it's going to be a challenge. Heaven forbid that the game happens and the dice gods smile on the motley collection.

I like having the option of having all the cards but truthfully I haven't seen much use in the last few sets. I don't think not having everything isn't a draw back.. Nor do I think having proxy anything should be allowed. . if you allow it you allow this game to fail.

We have a club member who is on a very limited income. He often gets high-quality image prints from his work’s printer of various upgrade cards, cuts them to size and sleeves them with other upgrade cards he doesn’t use (like putting a printout of PTL over a card of Ammunition Failsafe in a polypropylene card sleeve for example). From across the table, you’d never be able to tell the difference. I (and everyone else in my club) take absolutely no issue with this. What is the difference between that, and just buying the card from ebay without buying the boxed set? He has done it with a pilot card before as well, again, you’d never be able to tell the difference without physically inspecting the card combo.

I understand tournaments wanting you to have all the correct cards (due to printing created or modified versions due to cheating and because FFG is a for profit company of course) but his prints are exact replicas of the cards as they are scanned and made available over the net, and if he just wants one card I see no need for him to waste his money on ships he’ll never use.

He’s used his printed cards in a couple tournaments locally and no one ever even asked him or knew that he was playing with them.

It all depends on how you want to play.

If someone wants to reject a casual MtG game because there opponent's deck isn't good enough then I'd strongly suggest they help that other player get better and get of their high horse. If you expect every deck you play against to be tournament quality and to use proxies if that is the only way to do so I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to play with you. Of course in MtG I believe the power level in things swings far more than it does in X-Wing and in MtG the only "luck" involved is in what cards you draw and there is plenty you can do to control that.

I wonder what "motley collection of ships" one would need to face to think that their squadron is "too good" to risk being shown up by it? Maybe that collection is the undiscovered metagame breaker. Maybe the person behind it is good enough that they are just playing it because it's going to be a challenge. Heaven forbid that the game happens and the dice gods smile on the motley collection.

Just for clarification (because I worry that it may have been assumed to the contrary)...

The above is not my position on the matter, it is just what I have observed from certain parts of that community.

Which leads me to believe that if someone is ready to refuse a game because you don't want them to use their proxies, then that person is probably somebody you're better off not playing. Reasoning covered over the last couple of posts - they're probably not a very nice person.

Personal opinion: If someone wants to proxy an unreleased card, sure... They get to try it out before it's released, and I get to practice against it. Win/win.

If somebody wants to proxy a card that they could quite easily buy, they have a brief window of tolerance. Assuming the card works for them and they want to continue using it, I'll give them a reasonable amount of time (payday plus long enough to get out to the lgs and buy the ship would be typical. Although any large and frivolous expenditure on their part I become aware of is likely going to shorten that time considerably.)

After they've had chance to get the card, they can either pony up or stop using it, their choice.

Myself? Don't proxy. But I don't begrudge other people who want to so long as they don't abuse it.

What is the difference between that, and just buying the card from ebay without buying the boxed set?

The difference is that someone paid FFG for that box set, but that guy gives nothing to FFG for the cards he's using. Also since they're not official cards they could be altered in some way.

If you and your group have no issue with it, then do what you want. But if he shows up to a Store Championship with those cards he really need to expect that he may be DQ'ed.

Of course that proxy must not be allowed in tournament. Just to test our tolerance to proxy...

Casual play, one player not interested playing Rebels. Sleeved high quality print in cardstock of "Draw their fire". You can not say it is altered, confusing or the like. With a mediun quality HP you need a close inspection to notice the diference.

Is he "cheating" because he is not interested in the Falcon to equip his Decimator? Casual play.

In my opinion he can proxy that card with no objections. No confusion, no altered test, no treacherous play. I say this because I am a firm believer tha X Wing is a minis game. Cards as game aids, no MTG. Nobody in my area proxy ships, perhaps very young players who are very, very interested in the game buy can only buy one ship per month, a large sometimes.

I think that players who came from MTG or Netrunner are by their experiencia anti proxy, and wargamers are more flexible.

Final note : If FFG sell someday cards alone I will say NO to proxy in any circunstance. Pay 3 euros for your card. But as this is a minis game and you can not buy new cards from the retailer...

Buy models, not cards

And then when I print out a couple of Contracted Scout cards and base tiles for them and put them on base plates you aren't going to complain either if I'm not supposed to complain about your copied Draw Their Fire card.

You can't have one without the other.

There is no.point in comparing printed upgrade cards with "invisible" and imaginary ships. Because this is a minis game, and you need minis to play.

You are a experienced gamer and an active member of this forum. The diference is so clear, that I supose you simply say no to proxy based on your experience and as a 100% devoted player.

But there is no point in that argument. Too much profesionalism in casual.play. I respect your PoV, but I can't share it.

You can't have one without the other.

Why? How can you possibly justify a statement like that?

We are walking in circles, I fear. Too divergent opinions. Lets simply play.

You can say that I am a cheater. I own... don't know. Perhaps circa 240 models. Plus 6 Epic ships property of my friends to supplement the options. And we play with a vast number of printed update cards. Originals treasured and well protected. I own.2 Lambdas. As I am a fan of "Sensor Jammer" perhaps there are 10 or 12 of such cards in the System box of upgrade cards. I own much less original Jammers.

You can say that this is cheating, but also you can say what you want. That I damage FFG, Law violation...and I say that these words are a nonsense, too. Also on Armada, Rebel Assault and other FFG Games, only as a collector, no more time to play.other games.

Mantain your perspective, and enjoy the game.

There is no.point in comparing printed upgrade cards with "invisible" and imaginary ships. Because this is a minis game, and you need minis to play.

...

So just stick on Micromachine or something else.

As I've repeatedly said many place the actual model is the only thing you do NOT need to play the game although the base and ship tile are very important. If you want to say the model is essential because the rules say so then the rules also say you need the proper cards which makes them just as essential. If you void one then you void the other to the same degree.

I can fully admit that proxies do have a place in a few specific circumstance but certainly not as the general free for all which some believe they should be allowed for. While there is nothing to stop you from doing whatever you like in a private setting to promote proxies in general is just like casually breaking the law; you may even get away with it but it's still against the rules which are presumably there for some reason.

X-Wing Rules 2.0: Page 17

Gather Forces: The players reveal their squads and gather all of the ships, cards, and other components necessary for their squads. Each ship in the squad must have the correct plastic ship, ship token, maneuver dial, Ship card, and any Upgrade cards chosen, as well as ID tokens if necessary.

That's the rule as it is written in the rule book. There is no way to proxy, in any form or format, while adhering to the rules of the game. If you are doing this you are playing the game outside of the rules.

I've said this so many times in this thread than I forget how many times I've repeated it. If you wish to play the game outside of the rules, then that is up to you and your opponent. If you wish to play outside the rules in a group setting, make sure everyone is on board with this style of play.

A player who insists that the game be played by the rules is in the right over those who wish to play outside the rules.

I'm not exactly sure why this is an issue. If you're in a tournament, you have to have the official, printed cards available. If you're not in a tournament, then the boundaries are up to you and your opponent. If you both agree that proxies are acceptable (or even preferable--maybe you'd rather play with a squad builder printout for quick reference, rather than digging cards out of your stash), then those are the rules you play by.

And in fact the same goes for dogfight vs. campaign play, and the same goes for homebrew or house rules. The limit is what you can get your opponent to agree to. You're not doing anything illegal or even unethical by agreeing to a different set of rules than the ones FFG lays out, any more than it's illegal to place fines and taxes on Free Parking when you play Monopoly.

If your opponent doesn't agree to the rules you want, of course, you have to either compromise or find a new opponent. But that's what gaming, and moreover life, sometimes requires.

Then, about House Rules, land targets, deflection shooting, Hi-Lo rules, squadron building or Space Monsters, better not to speak.

Good luck and enjoy your game experiencie. Hexdot, over.