So over in the "paradigm shift of red dice" there was a point made by Lunarsol about how splitting the Pilot Skill into broad tiers instead of highly specific numbers would make the game more double-blind and interesting.

I wanted to bring it out of there because it's a super-intriguing idea which would make a lot of pilots previously unusable actually good.

The basic idea is that the pilots are split into FOUR categories:

1) Rookie (current PS 1-2)

2) Skilled (current PS 3-4)

3) Veteran (current PS 5-7)

4) Ace (current PS 8-9)

Rather than numerically divided. Activation and attacking would proceed the same as in standard X-Wing with the lowest activating first and the highest attacking first.

When two ships of the same Pilot Skill fire at the same time it works just as it does now - whoever has Initiative rolls first, but the damage still takes place simultaneously. This gives validity to a lot of 'bad' Aces (Tycho, Talonbane, Wedge) by putting them on the same foot as the 'good' Aces (Poe, Soontir, Han), while still letting them outshoot worse Pilots.

Oh, and it emphasizes proper maneuver too - jousting with a ship at your own PS is a BAD idea, whereas trying to get out of its way and still being able to fire? Good idea.

The reason it's Rookie/Skilled/Veteran/Ace is because that way it can be represented by a single letter, fitting neatly into the same space as it is now.

Thoughts?

Another thought I had but dismissed because it seemed too complicated was having the dials put down and then flipped in lowest to highest - as in, Rookies would decide and then flip first, then Skilled would do it, and so on - but that would COMPLETELY invalidate low PS, they're already bad off enough by having to take fire before getting to fire back.

I disagree completely. This does not solve the issue of good aces/bad aces within the tier. In fact it makes it worse by eliminating one of the ways that a pilot can differentiate himself outside of pilot ability/ship type.

EDIT: Eliminating an aspect of Pro/Con for each pilot does not help make the game more interesting. It makes it more flat/dull.

Who would take Wedge over Poe if they both had essentially the same PS. Poe's ability/stats/cost are way better. Sure, many people don't take Wedge now, but even fewer would if they eliminated one of the few things that Wedge had over Poe.

I can make a million more comparisons, but I think my point should be obvious.

Eliminating choice in a game never makes it more diverse.

I agree. I think this would fix some of the PS conundrum. The fewer categories, the better, and it would make initiative more worth having regardless of PS. Also, it would put PS into similar scale as attack and defense, which really only have 4 (adjustable) values.

I've also thought that having Initiative as a turn-by-turn variable (determined before dials selected) would improve the game and give more of a back and forth feel.

I've also thought that having Initiative as a turn-by-turn variable (determined before dials selected) would improve the game and give more of a back and forth feel.

Initiative is the big concern I have, though alternating turn by turn is probably a good way to go about it. I'd actually be curious how the game would be affected if it was just given to the player that currently has the fewest points. I'd need to play it that way to see if it made games more interesting or had too much of a catchup mechanic affect and heavily benefited players feigning being behind.

The bad pilots are bad because they are bad. Anything Tycho can do, Soontir can do better and for cheaper. Talonbane and Wedge aren't necessarily bad, it's their ships. No boost, barrel, low agility. So instead of being able to us auto thrusters or stealth device, it's absolutely necessary to slap engine upgrade on em. And as for the dials, just cause you're a good driver, doesn't mean you'll have awsome reflexes when the student driver pulls out in front of you. I feel that the activation phase is perfect the way it is. Besides, splitting the planning phase into 4 separate phases? Tournaments are already timed, stop adding more time to the game! I'd like to be able to finish the dog fight dammit! Interesting thoughts though lol If anything, the 4 tiers you created would make a good platform for casual play. "You can only pick pilots from these tiers this match" That'll force ppl to play things they normally wouldn't.

Wedge is PS9, Poe is PS8. Why we have this topic again?

The bad pilots are bad because they are bad. Anything Tycho can do, Soontir can do better and for cheaper. Talonbane and Wedge aren't necessarily bad, it's their ships. No boost, barrel, low agility. So instead of being able to us auto thrusters or stealth device, it's absolutely necessary to slap engine upgrade on em. And as for the dials, just cause you're a good driver, doesn't mean you'll have awsome reflexes when the student driver pulls out in front of you. I feel that the activation phase is perfect the way it is. Besides, splitting the planning phase into 4 separate phases? Tournaments are already timed, stop adding more time to the game! I'd like to be able to finish the dog fight dammit! Interesting thoughts though lol If anything, the 4 tiers you created would make a good platform for casual play. "You can only pick pilots from these tiers this match" That'll force ppl to play things they normally wouldn't.

That's why I noted that I REJECTED that very idea of placing dials four times - might wanna finish reading the paragraph before you heckle it.

The only reason Tycho is worse than Soontir right now is that he HAS to go after Soontir - look at Tycho again, think about what combinations of abilities he could have (PTL + Rage?) and then realize that he's 30 points with Rage+PTL+Autothrusters to Soontir's 35 - a fair price when you consider that Soontir has +1 Attack - and think about how many different ways that one could USE him if he weren't completely outclassed by one thing: his Pilot Skill.

I disagree completely. This does not solve the issue of good aces/bad aces within the tier. In fact it makes it worse by eliminating one of the ways that a pilot can differentiate himself outside of pilot ability/ship type.

EDIT: Eliminating an aspect of Pro/Con for each pilot does not help make the game more interesting. It makes it more flat/dull.

Who would take Wedge over Poe if they both had essentially the same PS. Poe's ability/stats/cost are way better. Sure, many people don't take Wedge now, but even fewer would if they eliminated one of the few things that Wedge had over Poe.

I can make a million more comparisons, but I think my point should be obvious.

Eliminating choice in a game never makes it more diverse.

I don't think you're thinking about this quite the right way. A 'worse' revision to the game invalidated cards, closing them to competitive use. A 'better' revision validates more cards, making them easier to use competitively.

Would Wedge be better if he were free from the need to take Veteran Instincts just to 'match up' to Vader and 'beat' Poe/Soontir and could have PTL+BB-8 to maximize his damage output and manueverability? I think so.

Right now the game is, "Does my PS beat yours, and that decides whether or not I win or lose." The change I'd make would be, "Can I manage to dodge your shot while still getting mine off, or can I survive your shot when we joust"?

Veteran Instincts is just SUCH a required card. It's awful - downright TERRIBLE - as a game balance sign that one of the most 'used' pilots - Vader - is only seen because with VI he's a necessary trump card.

Some ships would still be bad - but that's a function of their design and inappropriate points cost, rather than this system itself. By creating more opportunities to use cards, more cards would be used.

In an ideal world, this would also be in a X-Wing 2.0 rules-set where they'd rebalance the points to 200 base and get more granularity in the costs, but I think it would make an interesting change right now, too.

This gives validity to a lot of 'bad' Aces (Tycho, Talonbane, Wedge) by putting them on the same foot as the 'good' Aces (Poe, Soontir, Han), while still letting them outshoot worse Pilots.

Wedge is PS9, Poe is PS8. Why we have this topic again?

Because Wedge and Poe are almost never PS9 and PS8 - they're PS11 and PS10 because VI is SO important. Pilot Skill is so polarizing because either you're at 9, 10, 11, or it doesn't matter.

Removing that factor would free up a lot of currently unused cards - unused because they want cards other than VI to be good. Kicking VI to the curb puts an end to this Pilot Skill race.

simply get rid of PS in Armada style activation (Though I'd rather the game remain split between movement and shooting. First players alternate movement, then alternate shooting)

now Armada had a very slight problem in more ships = more activation = pretty decent advantage in with allowing key ships to move/shoot after everyone else,

in X-wing, however, the movement dial system makes abusing this system a lot trickier.

I've also thought that having Initiative as a turn-by-turn variable (determined before dials selected) would improve the game and give more of a back and forth feel.

Initiative is the big concern I have, though alternating turn by turn is probably a good way to go about it. I'd actually be curious how the game would be affected if it was just given to the player that currently has the fewest points. I'd need to play it that way to see if it made games more interesting or had too much of a catchup mechanic affect and heavily benefited players feigning being behind.

Well, 'initiative' doesn't matter too much in the game, to be honest. It's mostly a bit of information, and losing initiative can be beneficial too if you have a lot of matching PS - I've blocked a Han Solo with a 1-hull Vader before and got my actions off while he had to trade fire with a swarm deprived of his Evade token.

So switching back and forth based on how many points each side had is interesting, but it would actually take MORE time because you'd have to calculate on the fly at the start of every turn how much you have left. Not much more, but it'd be a slowdown moment... a worthwhile one, though?

simply get rid of PS in Armada style activation (Though I'd rather the game remain split between movement and shooting. First players alternate movement, then alternate shooting)

now Armada had a very slight problem in more ships = more activation = pretty decent advantage in with allowing key ships to move/shoot after everyone else,

in X-wing, however, the movement dial system makes abusing this system a lot trickier.

Battletech's solution is simple: If at any time one side has more than twice as many units, it has to move two units at the same time. So if Side A starts with 9 and Side B starts with 8 units, then they alternate single units until Side A has 2 units to Side B's 1, and then it has to move two.

Of course, this is bound up in BT's initiative system where WINNING initiative means you go second, getting information to counter the other person's movements - oh, and all damage is simultaneous at the end of the turn, so initiative doesn't matter as far as destroying things goes. Therefore if Side A had lost initiative it would have to move those last two units before Side B's last unit, giving Side B the edge.

The bad pilots are bad because they are bad. Anything Tycho can do, Soontir can do better and for cheaper. Talonbane and Wedge aren't necessarily bad, it's their ships. No boost, barrel, low agility. So instead of being able to us auto thrusters or stealth device, it's absolutely necessary to slap engine upgrade on em. And as for the dials, just cause you're a good driver, doesn't mean you'll have awsome reflexes when the student driver pulls out in front of you. I feel that the activation phase is perfect the way it is. Besides, splitting the planning phase into 4 separate phases? Tournaments are already timed, stop adding more time to the game! I'd like to be able to finish the dog fight dammit! Interesting thoughts though lol If anything, the 4 tiers you created would make a good platform for casual play. "You can only pick pilots from these tiers this match" That'll force ppl to play things they normally wouldn't.

That's why I noted that I REJECTED that very idea of placing dials four times - might wanna finish reading the paragraph before you heckle it.

The only reason Tycho is worse than Soontir right now is that he HAS to go after Soontir - look at Tycho again, think about what combinations of abilities he could have (PTL + Rage?) and then realize that he's 30 points with Rage+PTL+Autothrusters to Soontir's 35 - a fair price when you consider that Soontir has +1 Attack - and think about how many different ways that one could USE him if he weren't completely outclassed by one thing: his Pilot Skill.

I disagree completely. This does not solve the issue of good aces/bad aces within the tier. In fact it makes it worse by eliminating one of the ways that a pilot can differentiate himself outside of pilot ability/ship type.

EDIT: Eliminating an aspect of Pro/Con for each pilot does not help make the game more interesting. It makes it more flat/dull.

Who would take Wedge over Poe if they both had essentially the same PS. Poe's ability/stats/cost are way better. Sure, many people don't take Wedge now, but even fewer would if they eliminated one of the few things that Wedge had over Poe.

I can make a million more comparisons, but I think my point should be obvious.

Eliminating choice in a game never makes it more diverse.

I don't think you're thinking about this quite the right way. A 'worse' revision to the game invalidated cards, closing them to competitive use. A 'better' revision validates more cards, making them easier to use competitively.

Would Wedge be better if he were free from the need to take Veteran Instincts just to 'match up' to Vader and 'beat' Poe/Soontir and could have PTL+BB-8 to maximize his damage output and manueverability? I think so.

Right now the game is, "Does my PS beat yours, and that decides whether or not I win or lose." The change I'd make would be, "Can I manage to dodge your shot while still getting mine off, or can I survive your shot when we joust"?

Veteran Instincts is just SUCH a required card. It's awful - downright TERRIBLE - as a game balance sign that one of the most 'used' pilots - Vader - is only seen because with VI he's a necessary trump card.

Some ships would still be bad - but that's a function of their design and inappropriate points cost, rather than this system itself. By creating more opportunities to use cards, more cards would be used.

In an ideal world, this would also be in a X-Wing 2.0 rules-set where they'd rebalance the points to 200 base and get more granularity in the costs, but I think it would make an interesting change right now, too.

"Does my PS beat yours and that decides whether I win or lose".... Wow. You must have come along post Wave 4. Lower Skill lists are quite capable of beating the higher PS ones. You just have to know how. 4BZ is still quite capable of beating Palp Aces as an example. In some ways, it is the one of the most capable.

Wedge has to take VI to match up to Vader/Poe/Fel? Are you serious? He can take VI all he wants, Wedge is simply not good enough to hang with any of them at the moment. I think he's better off taking PtL/BB-8 right now, because then he is actually a threat.... So no, I don;t think adding him to the same band would help him at all. For the points, there is a long list of Aces that are better than Wedge...

I disagree completely. VI is NOT a mandatory card at all, especially on PS9, people use it as a crutch or because they don't need anything else in their EPT slot. There was a time when PS 10+ mattered a lot, but they nerf'ed Decloaking =). I would actually argue that I expect that post Wave 8 we will see less of VI than we have in the past

Vader does not take VI because he needs it. Quite the opposite. He takes it because he doesn't need anything else, and having a PS advantage is decent for one point. It is far from mandatory. You can have just as much success with Crack Shot, Adrenaline Rush, etc. in that slot.

I think you misunderstand. You think that by homogenizing the PS into brackets you are allowing more choices to be made and more opportunities. I assert that you are wrong. Making them all the same means that only the cream of the crop will be taken. And, if we stick to Wedge as an example, he is simply not the cream of the crop. The same can be said of many of the other pilots. Why would I take Wedge at 29 (or even 27) over Poe at 31 if they were the same PS? I have no reason to. That is the point.

Have you even thought about lists where Miranda, Corran, and Poe are essentially the same PS as Luke and Wedge? Or Tycho? You seriously think that gives the latter MORE chances to be played? Because I don't. If anything, it just shows how antiquated/inefficient they are.

X-Wing 2.0 with 200 points..... yea, keep dreaming...

This is X-Wing, not Armada. I guess I really need to read the article mentioned by the OP so I can actually have information in which to refute its statements... . The initiative bid & PS bid are actually very important for anyone playing an Aces list, if you ignore it, you are ignoring something important. Generic PS 3-5s are only really important when trying to shoot before the "rookies", but yet again that is an important part of list building.

Personally, I like flying all "rookie" level, mainly PS2, ships, because I don't have to worry as much about anything to do with initiative bidding.

Well, 'initiative' doesn't matter too much in the game, to be honest. It's mostly a bit of information, and losing initiative can be beneficial too if you have a lot of matching PS - I've blocked a Han Solo with a 1-hull Vader before and got my actions off while he had to trade fire with a swarm deprived of his Evade token.

It doesn't usually matter, but sometimes you have things like Whisper with Advanced Cloaking Device where its night and day different. That's the big thing that makes me think there's value in improving it, even if its fine for most situations.

This gives validity to a lot of 'bad' Aces (Tycho, Talonbane, Wedge) by putting them on the same foot as the 'good' Aces (Poe, Soontir, Han), while still letting them outshoot worse Pilots.

Wedge is PS9, Poe is PS8. Why we have this topic again?

Because Wedge and Poe are almost never PS9 and PS8 - they're PS11 and PS10 because VI is SO important. Pilot Skill is so polarizing because either you're at 9, 10, 11, or it doesn't matter.

Removing that factor would free up a lot of currently unused cards - unused because they want cards other than VI to be good. Kicking VI to the curb puts an end to this Pilot Skill race.

You are speaking entirely for yourself. I'm not sure I've ever faced Wedge at PS11, because it tends to be overkill against a lot of builds. I usually see him with either Draw Their Fire next to Biggs, or something like PTL or Predator.

Omega Leader is one of the top pilots in Wave 8, and he's solidly PS8. I've been seeing a lot of Carnor Jax recently, who also lives in the PS8 zone.

As has been widely noted, the new list to fear is three Jumpmaster Torpedo Boats with Deadeye. They're only PS3, making VI a waste on everyone but maybe Green Squadron Pilots.

Yeah the whole premise here seems to be that VI is the single most 'must have' upgrade in the game and that simply isn't true.

It was somewhat true before the Phantom Nerf, because you really, really wanted to go before it could cloak again. But if you put VI on Wedge because you think he has to be PS11 to useful... Frankly the issue isn't VI.

Wedges problem is not PS9. Also I think a lot of people put way more stock in PS on these boards they is fitting based on what I see people actually playing.

Really, PS10 for +0 points is probably better than 11 for 1. Soontir is currently the premier arc dodger who loses a lot of positioning advantage by being behind.

Wedge's problem is primarily that he doesn't gain much positioning advantage because of the ship he's on, regardless of PS.