OK so I know a lot of people are asking about the Ghost and rules regarding the Attack Shuttle being docked. I heard that if the Attack Shuttle is docked, the Ghost can attack twice with it's primary weapon, and THEN attack again with a turret at the end of the round.

Now the way that I read the card, it makes it seem that when its the Ghost's turn to attack, if the Shuttle is docked, I can shoot only once, but I have the option to shoot from EITHER the front arc or the rear. Then because the shuttle is still docked I can shoot once with a turret.

I'd appreciate some clarification as to exactly how many different attacks the Ghost can make as this is going to help me when making my build.

Thanks!

The ghost is allowed only to shoot once with its primary. If it has the phantom docked with titles, then it may use its special arc for its primary, but thats still only 1 attack. Then, at the end of the combat phase (after everyone has fired), it may fire again using a turret equipped on the ghost (not the phantom). Please note though that if the turret used as the bonus attack is a twin-laser turret, only 1 of the 2 TLT shots will be fired because the ghost title limits it to one attack.

Once the phantom is deployed, the ghost loses the ability to fire its primary from the rear arc (but can still fire torpedoes in it), and the bonus end of combat attack.

Answered everything I needed to know like a champ, thanks!

Haven't had a chance to go through the new faq yet, is there anything preventing the ghost double tapping with an equiped turret and docked shuttle?

You can double tap with a turret. I guess I got too focused on showing you can't double tap with the primary.

So essentially, the ghost can have 2 attacks. The first attack can be any eligible weapon (primary, torpedo, turret), but the second attack must be a turret.

You can double tap with a turret. I guess I got too focused on showing you can't double tap with the primary.

So essentially, the ghost can have 2 attacks. The first attack can be any eligible weapon (primary, torpedo, turret), but the second attack must be a turret.

So this is the mechanic that is allowing The Ghost to get 4 unavoidable hits with ABT and AC?

You can double tap with a turret. I guess I got too focused on showing you can't double tap with the primary.

So essentially, the ghost can have 2 attacks. The first attack can be any eligible weapon (primary, torpedo, turret), but the second attack must be a turret.

So this is the mechanic that is allowing The Ghost to get 4 unavoidable hits with ABT and AC?

Yes.

Thanks. I was reading The Phantom card entirely wrong.

Thanks. I was reading The Phantom card entirely wrong.

You were not alone. I thought the turret went on the Phantom as well.

Please note though that if the turret used as the bonus attack is a twin-laser turret, only 1 of the 2 TLT shots will be fired because the ghost title limits it to one attack.

I think you may be incorrect about the TLT (twin laser turret), since the TLT states;

"ATTACK: Perform this attack twice (even against a ship outside your firing arc)."

The Phantom title states;

"While you are docked, the Ghost can perform primary weapon attacks from its special firing arc and, at the end of the Combat phase, it may perform an additional attack with an equipped Turret. If it performs this attack, it cannot attack again this round."

Also the FAQ says:

Q: if a player has multiple effects that resolve at the same time, can he resolve them in any order?

A: Yes.

The way I read it is in layers. The phantom card allows for an extra attack, and the TLT allows for two attacks for one. Then you may not do another attack. You are assuming one card prohibits the other, but it's more about timing.

But I guess we will have to wait until an update is made to the FAQ.

I just found this post about nesting and thought it applies:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/217182-tiev1-and-ptl/

The way I read it is in layers. The phantom card allows for an extra attack, and the TLT allows for two attacks for one. Then you may not do another attack. You are assuming one card prohibits the other, but it's more about timing.

But I guess we will have to wait until an update is made to the FAQ.

According to the FAQ, TLT shots are treated as two separate attacks.

The way I read it is in layers. The phantom card allows for an extra attack, and the TLT allows for two attacks for one. Then you may not do another attack. You are assuming one card prohibits the other, but it's more about timing.

But I guess we will have to wait until an update is made to the FAQ.

According to the FAQ, TLT shots are treated as two separate attacks.

That still doesn't cancel the argument of timing. The order of action is an attack provided by Phantom title, the TLT provides it's two attacks for the one, then you cannot attack again in the round. It's a nested attack.

Let me play devil's advocate for a second.

If you have gunner or Luke Skywalker (crew) and you were using TLT.

On the first hit, you miss with your TLT and decide to use the gunner or LS ability, this would negate the second attack because you have now triggered the gunner card.

And this is where everyone is probably assuming that is what you do here.

BUT (and this is a big one) TLT is actually interrupting the Phantom title card in this case, allowing you two attacks as per the TLT card and when it is triggered.

I hope that makes sense. Of course if the designers don't like how powerful the Ghost is, this will be nurfed, but as the rules stand, I think you do get both attacks.

Anyone else see it that way?

Let me play devil's advocate for a second.

If you have gunner or Luke Skywalker (crew) and you were using TLT.

On the first hit, you miss with your TLT and decide to use the gunner or LS ability, this would negate the second attack because you have now triggered the gunner card.

And this is where everyone is probably assuming that is what you do here.

BUT (and this is a big one) TLT is actually interrupting the Phantom title card in this case, allowing you two attacks as per the TLT card and when it is triggered.

I hope that makes sense. Of course if the designers don't like how powerful the Ghost is, this will be nurfed, but as the rules stand, I think you do get both attacks.

Anyone else see it that way?

I understood the community consensus to be a single TLT shot allowed in the end phase, but there was a TO at a tournament who called it the other way: that the Ghost gets full double TLT. So after I got home I came here to ask where it is specifically not allowed... and the closest I can find is that the FAQ says that TLT is "treated as two separate attacks against the same target. During the second attack, the “Declare Defender and Weapon” step is skipped."(X-wing FAQ as of Apr 2, p.15).

Furthermore, there happens to be another thread on a related topic of double attacks: R5-P8, 1HP Gunner or TLT. The consensus on that thread seems to have coalesced around the Darth Vader ruling regarding Cluster Missiles, that being "if Darth Vader destroys the ship to which he is equipped, it can still perform its second attack"(FAQ p.12). In that light it would seem that Ghost does get full TLT shots because it is all covered under a single Attack: header, making it a single "turret attack" that happens to contain two separate attacks within it.

To my knowledge the Ghost/Phantom title is the only double-tap that allows the possibility to trigger a twin attack so there is no direct precedent, and we probably need a FAQ/errata for it...

Not to throw another monkey into the wrench, but wouldn't Valen Rudor vs Cluster Missiles/TLT be affected by this ruling? If the attacks are "already started and can't be stopped" it doesn't matter if he Boosts or Barrel Rolls out to Range 3 vs CM or into Range 1 vs TLT; he'd still get hit with the second one.

Not to throw another monkey into the wrench, but wouldn't Valen Rudor vs Cluster Missiles/TLT be affected by this ruling? If the attacks are "already started and can't be stopped" it doesn't matter if he Boosts or Barrel Rolls out to Range 3 vs CM or into Range 1 vs TLT; he'd still get hit with the second one.

In theory, yes, which is why several people, not least myself, are a little confused by the ruling about Valen.

If i remember correctly (I'll have to check later when i can read the FAQ) we should also note that the Gunner ruling indicates that TLT is two separate attacks because you can Gunner after the first and doing so cancels the second as per the "cannot perform any more attacks" bit on the Gunner card.

BUT(!) The cluster missile can only trigger Gunner if both attacks miss, not just the second, which indicates the whole of it is a single attack.

Let me play devil's advocate for a second.

If you have gunner or Luke Skywalker (crew) and you were using TLT.

On the first hit, you miss with your TLT and decide to use the gunner or LS ability, this would negate the second attack because you have now triggered the gunner card.

And this is where everyone is probably assuming that is what you do here.

BUT (and this is a big one) TLT is actually interrupting the Phantom title card in this case, allowing you two attacks as per the TLT card and when it is triggered.

I hope that makes sense. Of course if the designers don't like how powerful the Ghost is, this will be nurfed, but as the rules stand, I think you do get both attacks.

Anyone else see it that way?

I understood the community consensus to be a single TLT shot allowed in the end phase, but there was a TO at a tournament who called it the other way: that the Ghost gets full double TLT. So after I got home I came here to ask where it is specifically not allowed... and the closest I can find is that the FAQ says that TLT is "treated as two separate attacks against the same target. During the second attack, the “Declare Defender and Weapon” step is skipped."(X-wing FAQ as of Apr 2, p.15).

Furthermore, there happens to be another thread on a related topic of double attacks: R5-P8, 1HP Gunner or TLT. The consensus on that thread seems to have coalesced around the Darth Vader ruling regarding Cluster Missiles, that being "if Darth Vader destroys the ship to which he is equipped, it can still perform its second attack"(FAQ p.12). In that light it would seem that Ghost does get full TLT shots because it is all covered under a single Attack: header, making it a single "turret attack" that happens to contain two separate attacks within it.

@JediPartisan: That's the best argument for getting both TLT shots at the end of the Combat phase (and it is at least a little ambiguous), but as nitrobenz mentions the consensus is that you only get one and it does need an FAQ.

Always a good idea to ask the TO beforehand (if possible) about rules questions that you're concerned about (I realize that it can be hard to anticipate these questions beforehand, and that general consensus of the internet can give false expectations).

I'm not sold on the Vader precedent for a ship dying between shots still getting the second shot, because in that case the ship is destroying itself (instead of dying from an opponent's ability). It's also worth noting the difference between Gunner-type abilities, which trigger "After you perform an attack", Cluster Missiles/TLT which trigger when the first attack declares defender and weapon, and other attack abilities (Corran, Dengar, Ghost/Phantom).

For example, if the defender has R5-P8 and initiative, and destroys the attacker with R5-P8, I (currently) wouldn't consider Gunner-type abilities to have triggered yet. Likewise if the attacker had initiative and used a Gunner-type ability to destroy the defender, R5-P8 would never get to trigger. The Valen Ruder FAQ could be used to reinforce this argument, because it sets a precedent for a defender's ability impacting subsequent attacks (notably ones that are already triggered {CM/TLT}).

All that said, I could be wrong (except on the TO bit ).

To my knowledge the Ghost/Phantom title is the only double-tap that allows the possibility to trigger a twin attack so there is no direct precedent, and we probably need a FAQ/errata for it...

Agreed

Not to throw another monkey into the wrench, but wouldn't Valen Rudor vs Cluster Missiles/TLT be affected by this ruling? If the attacks are "already started and can't be stopped" it doesn't matter if he Boosts or Barrel Rolls out to Range 3 vs CM or into Range 1 vs TLT; he'd still get hit with the second one.

In theory, yes, which is why several people, not least myself, are a little confused by the ruling about Valen.

This might sound nit-picky, so bear with me. The FAQs for CM/TLT both say "During the second attack, the “Declare Defender and Weapon” step is skipped." but do not say anything about skipping the bullet points, which arguably aren't part of the step, just conditions for the attack to take place (or if they are {even nit-pickier}, you only skip the "Declare Defender" and "Declare Weapon" parts of the "Declare Target" step).

If that's not an acceptable rationalization, then at least this case of "Because the FAQ says so" isn't as bad as him triggering before Tactician regardless of initiative.

If i remember correctly (I'll have to check later when i can read the FAQ) we should also note that the Gunner ruling indicates that TLT is two separate attacks because you can Gunner after the first and doing so cancels the second as per the "cannot perform any more attacks" bit on the Gunner card.

BUT(!) The cluster missile can only trigger Gunner if both attacks miss, not just the second, which indicates the whole of it is a single attack.

The double attacks from CM and TLT function almost identically, you definitely can use Gunner if the first CM attack misses {the Gunner FAQ even uses CM as an example "When Gunner is used to perform a primary weapon attack, any additional attacks (such as from Cluster Missiles) are forfeited."}. You're probably mixing it up with the Cluster Missiles/Mutitions Failsafe FAQ (which does require both attacks to miss to trigger).

EDIT: Sorry about the wall of text.

This is another instance then where we need an update to the FAQ.

In regards to card abilities the rules reference states: "If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative chooses which of his abilities to resolve and resolves them in the order of his choosing. Then the opposing player does the same for his own abilities."

The title card states that you may make an attack, and the TLT card states that you can make two attacks in place of the one you are normally given, then the title card states that you are no longer allowed to attack. There should be no interruption in the TLT card's ability since both cards contain their own unique and valid rules. Why should the title card invalidate the rules on the TLT card, which clearly allows you to make two attacks where you are normally only allowed one? Even if this were just a regular attack and not the attack given by the title card, the TLT card is changing a single attack into two. I do not believe that these two cards contradict or counteract each other, I think they both take affect and in thier own time.

The rules state: "A ship can perform one attack when it becomes the active ship during the Combat phase."

Yet TLT changes the rules because it supersedes the rule book. Again, why should this attack be any different and why should the rules on the TLT card be ignored? You are given two attacks for the one you normally get.

But now I feel like a rules lawyer... {hangs head in shame and shuffles out}

"If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects."

Rules Reference pg 2. The Phantom title says "cannot". So once you've performed the first extra attack from the TLT, you "cannot" attack again.

That's the best argument I've heard, but is TLT overriding the title card or just happening prior to the effect. Remember I'm arguing order of operation, not overriding effects. That's why I'm curious as to why everyone is cancelling the TLT effect.

Though I could see why a TO would call against the TLT, but I still don't believe it to be correct.

We'll have to wait and see, but thanks for the post. I remembered that there was a "golden rule" I just couldn't remember where, or exactly what it said.

"If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects."

Rules Reference pg 2. The Phantom title says "cannot". So once you've performed the first extra attack from the TLT, you "cannot" attack again.

you are 100% correct, i can see both sides of the argument, but i wasn't thinking about the "cannot" specificity. That does make it quite clear. Even if you accept that the TLT is a nestled action (along the lines of Push the Limit -> Experimental Interface interaction ending with 3 actions and 2 stress) the cannot wording would still prevent that. I feel really silly for not remembering the "cannot" rules.

Sorry to revive this... but what's the final answer?

How many TLT shots can a Ghost get in a single turn if it has a shuttle docked?

With the attack chart now in effect, the Ghost can attack two times with a TLT. Each time doing the double attack of the TLT.

With the new attack flow chart, TLT are seen as one big opportunity to attack with some nested step done in double.