Got it. Prob better to dump the system and play something else rather than start mucking it up.

Got it. Prob better to dump the system and play something else rather than start mucking it up.

The FFG version of SWRPG was specifically designed to be crunch-lite, if not rules-lite.

If you are incapable of playing a game without having massive amounts of crunch, or adding massive amounts of crunch to whatever game you’re trying to play, then yeah — maybe you should be playing a different game.

Got it. Prob better to dump the system and play something else rather than start mucking it up.

I still don't understand the need for what you described in the OP, but whatever floats your boat man. Like bradknowles said, if you can't play without crunch it's probably best to find something else.

Got it. Prob better to dump the system and play something else rather than start mucking it up.

The offer of 50 bucks for the books still stands. ;-)

Got it. Prob better to dump the system and play something else rather than start mucking it up.

I still don't understand the need for what you described in the OP, but whatever floats your boat man. Like bradknowles said, if you can't play without crunch it's probably best to find something else.

The simplest answer would be to explain that the descriptions of the upper range bands include distances 10 or even hundreds of times larger than the lower ones, yet the time required to cross them by vehicles is roughly the same, when you consider the perceived length of one round in time. It makes sense that logically it should take longer to traverse the hundreds of kilometers mentioned in medium range that it does the dozens in short, everything else being the same (vehicle speed)

Got it. Prob better to dump the system and play something else rather than start mucking it up.

The offer of 50 bucks for the books still stands. ;-)

nah, Im still trying to salvage this thing. Besides, there are a lot of gamers that haven't discovered these issues yet and will pay top dollar for the books when and if I decide to sell.

Got it. Prob better to dump the system and play something else rather than start mucking it up.

The offer of 50 bucks for the books still stands. ;-)

nah, Im still trying to salvage this thing. Besides, there are a lot of gamers that haven't discovered these issues yet and will pay top dollar for the books when and if I decide to sell.

Doesn't really appear to be any "issues" to "discover." And if I'm going to pay "top dollar" for any book (RPG, novel, comic,etc), I'll buy new, not used. ;-)

Got it. Prob better to dump the system and play something else rather than start mucking it up.

The FFG version of SWRPG was specifically designed to be crunch-lite, if not rules-lite.If you are incapable of playing a game without having massive amounts of crunch, or adding massive amounts of crunch to whatever game you’re trying to play, then yeah — maybe you should be playing a different game.

Wow, expecting movement rates to be consistent equals massive crunch. Who knew?

I'm middle ground. No, no exact measurement is wanted with this narrative system. It won't mix well. But, I do want some sense of what to say when speaking to my players. Thus no details, but something they can imagine to understand about how far something is away. At least a guestimate. So when it first came up I used something like this:

Engaged: Around this table or standing nearby it.

Short: The next room or possibly the front yard.

Medium: Across the street or in the neighbor's yard.

Long: End of the block.

Extreme: A couple or few blocks away.

Others have suggested the same here many times, but I don't care to search the old threads. Since it was described this way initially it only comes up rarely. Then I again just use an example that my players can see or imagine.

Me: "You can see a guard in a post at this side of the bridge".

Player: "How far away is he".

Me: Medium range.

Player: "About how far is that again?"

Me: "About the same as across the street in my neighbor's front yard".

It's never been an issue that I didn't say, "30 meters" , instead. The first time I played Warhammer FFG (same narrative system), it took me a bit to throw away what I was used to with old games - D&D, 2300AD, Twilight 2000, Avalon Hill board games, etc. that were so much more literal on counting distances.

If you haven't already, go play a round of combat and see how it works as is before trying to make any changes. There is much about this system that doesn't become evident until your first hour of real play. I read and studied Warhammer FFG and was confused of a few concepts. Then I played just one short adventure with a player and it seemed so simple afterwards. Looking back it seems silly it was confusing. I was still locked into the non-narrative style of other games.

I'm middle ground. No, no exact measurement is wanted with this narrative system. It won't mix well. But, I do want some sense of what to say when speaking to my players. Thus no details, but something they can imagine to understand about how far something is away. At least a guestimate. So when it first came up I used something like this:

Engaged: Around this table or standing nearby it.

Short: The next room or possibly the front yard.

Medium: Across the street or in the neighbor's yard.

Long: End of the block.

Extreme: A couple or few blocks away.

Others have suggested the same here many times, but I don't care to search the old threads. Since it was described this way initially it only comes up rarely. Then I again just use an example that my players can see or imagine.

Me: "You can see a guard in a post at this side of the bridge".

Player: "How far away is he".

Me: Medium range.

Player: "About how far is that again?"

Me: "About the same as across the street in my neighbor's front yard".

It's never been an issue that I didn't say, "30 meters" , instead. The first time I played Warhammer FFG (same narrative system), it took me a bit to throw away what I was used to with old games - D&D, 2300AD, Twilight 2000, Avalon Hill board games, etc. that were so much more literal on counting distances.

If you haven't already, go play a round of combat and see how it works as is before trying to make any changes. There is much about this system that doesn't become evident until your first hour of real play. I read and studied Warhammer FFG and was confused of a few concepts. Then I played just one short adventure with a player and it seemed so simple afterwards. Looking back it seems silly it was confusing. I was still locked into the non-narrative style of other games.

Thank you, good post. We played 3 -6 hour sessions with several combats before I posted this. It's kind of a big deal. We fix this or the system isn't playable for us.

Wow, expecting movement rates to be consistent equals massive crunch. Who knew?

Wow. Obvious Troll being obvious. Who knew?

Wow, expecting movement rates to be consistent equals massive crunch. Who knew?

Wow. Obvious Troll being obvious. Who knew?

lol if you can't figure it out after playing multiple 6 hour sessions and 2 pages of helpful posts then you might be a troll...who knew?

lol if you can't figure it out after playing multiple 6 hour sessions and 2 pages of helpful posts then you might be a troll...who knew?

If virtually everyone around you is telling you that you’re doing it wrong, and they’ve all got more experience on the subject than you do, then you are almost certainly actually doing it wrong.

Your dogged insistence on “Winning Star Wars” through argument and trolling on these forums will lead to your threads being locked, and possibly to you being banned — unless you can change your ways.

The question is whether or not a leopard can change their spots. Or a troll their trollish behaviour.

The pack mentality you guys are exhibiting is truly amazing, and that from gamers who are usually just the opposite. But please, by all means lock the thread. The troll remarks are baseless and insulting. God forbid open discussion .

This insistence that this is a problem for all when it is obviously just an issue for you and your group is what is truly amazing. By all means, though, adapt the game if it makes it playable for you and your own. Personally I think you and your group hold too fast to exact numbers whether they are in the form of distance and/or time. Both of which are deliberately nebulous to suit the needs of the scene. Crossing from medium can take from one minute to five minutes to an hour. This is not a tactical simulation game. If you want such, and it really seems that you would prefer that, I suggest trying Saga or Star wars CR/RCR (D&D in space).

I'm middle ground. No, no exact measurement is wanted with this narrative system. It won't mix well. But, I do want some sense of what to say when speaking to my players. Thus no details, but something they can imagine to understand about how far something is away. At least a guestimate. So when it first came up I used something like this:

Engaged: Around this table or standing nearby it.

Short: The next room or possibly the front yard.

Medium: Across the street or in the neighbor's yard.

Long: End of the block.

Extreme: A couple or few blocks away.

Others have suggested the same here many times, but I don't care to search the old threads. Since it was described this way initially it only comes up rarely. Then I again just use an example that my players can see or imagine.

Me: "You can see a guard in a post at this side of the bridge".

Player: "How far away is he".

Me: Medium range.

Player: "About how far is that again?"

Me: "About the same as across the street in my neighbor's front yard".

It's never been an issue that I didn't say, "30 meters" , instead. The first time I played Warhammer FFG (same narrative system), it took me a bit to throw away what I was used to with old games - D&D, 2300AD, Twilight 2000, Avalon Hill board games, etc. that were so much more literal on counting distances.

If you haven't already, go play a round of combat and see how it works as is before trying to make any changes. There is much about this system that doesn't become evident until your first hour of real play. I read and studied Warhammer FFG and was confused of a few concepts. Then I played just one short adventure with a player and it seemed so simple afterwards. Looking back it seems silly it was confusing. I was still locked into the non-narrative style of other games.

Thank you, good post. We played 3 -6 hour sessions with several combats before I posted this. It's kind of a big deal. We fix this or the system isn't playable for us.

There's really nothing to "fix." There appears to be an intentionally broad mechanic that is too broad for you/your group's tastes, but that doesn't make it "broken."

My group uses my WotC Star Wars minis and maps. When I print maps I print them in pieces on 17x11 inch sheets of paper at office max, where inch equals 1 "square" (the WotC scale) but the word square is used only because there are squares on most maps. The rule that a player suggested and I went with is that anyone on the same 17x11 inch sheet of paper is within short range with you unless your standing next to them, then you're engaged. I generalized the rule to be one 17x11 sheet of paper costs 1 maneuver to travel, and the range band movement cost in maneuvers means that medium range covers the sheets that are 2-3 sheets away (counting the sheet that your mini is on as sheet 1), and long range covers the sheets that are 4-5 sheets away.

"What about extreme range?" you ask... well, because my "that's not a coffee table it's a dinner table for hobbits" coffee table is 56 inches long, it only fits 5 sheets in the 11 inch direction so extreme range is off the table and covered narratively, just like in the book.

I'd guess that maybe you're thinking that it's a little absurd/"unrealistic" because the "map distance to range band conversion" isn't the same in both directions, but my coffee table is 34 inches wide so it covers 2 sheets in the 17 inch direction. So if we were to assume that short range was actually 11 inches/map-squares and that short range STARTS at the edge of the "square" you're in, then the width of the coffee table would cover (34-1)/11 = 3 short range increments and medium range is maneuvers 2-3. This means that the 11x17 inch sheet of paper to 1 maneuver conversion is really only "slightly" off... slightly meaning that 5 inches/squares in the middle of the table's width should be counted as medium but are instead "incorrectly" counted as short. so even if you were a real-world-combat-simulationist (I'm not) it still works pretty accurately for my gaming space/set up.

Thanks guys, just posted on the other thread on Range Bands. If your one of those bracing me there, please give it a read. I think youll be pleased.

As for this thread, I still think fanning out the range bands a little, perhaps not as much as originally planned, could help differentiate them a little and allow for a more smooth movement transition. And thats purely a personal observation. Ill have to think on it. It may be as simple as just splitting them up into Near Medium and Far Medium or something like that. Long, Very Long and Extremely Long or whatever.

Just something to bring those hugely variable longer range bands into something closer to a working measure.

Not a big deal, we will see.

Just to add in something here not with range bands or anything, but about RPG "crunch", and the math, charts, measurements that usually accompany these things. The session before last for us we had someone use a greande. I don't use them much, and this was the first time that this particular group had used one.

So they decided to use the grenade in an enclosed room. One PC knew what was coming and wanted to jump out a window (street level) I said, ok, but the glass has a strength of 2, beat that with your brawn. He didn't. The skinny Duro pilot jumped into the window, looking like a splattered bug on the windshield of his land speeder. He slid down the glass leaving behind a trail of spittle...

We all got a great laugh at that. Anyway. On to the grenade. Like I said, I never use them. We were fuzzy on the rule, I did a quick read through, and they had enough advantage to activate blast!! So everyone in the room got hit with the grenade, and then the blast. For about 10-15 minutes there was a ton of debate going on on about "real world" physics, real world grendades, ranged defense, cover, YouTube greande videos were mentioned, blah, blah, blah, blah....we ourselves prevented the system form dong its job. The greande hit. Blast was activated. Everyone in range takes the additional damage. The end. No cover, no melee/range defense, and most importantly, and often over looked, no Adversay Talent! Of course Soak is applied. It should be quick, and we didn't let it be quick. The next session, I talked to the players, explained up how it should work, and everyone agrees that that is ok.

The more that we want a game to be real world, the longer it takes, and I found, the less fun it is. For me, Star Wars is about running a huge massive vehicle chases, or even personnel chases. I guess those aren't the kind of stories I tell. When my Duro Driver/Rigger does get into a chase scene, that is exactly how it starts off as a scene, not rounds. I describe some action, he describes what he is doing. Last night he got into a pretty chase scene, and he was herders away from his intended "target". I described how some other speeders were closing in on him from the sides and from behind. Not once was a measurement ever mentioned. Not feet, not meters, not squares. I did say about medium range. (Which means not in range of hand guns). He goes through a shopping a mall to loose them!! He a makes a hard piloting checking with a bucnh of setback due to various good reasons, (I love using and explaining setback die) but he can get rid of them through his talents! He blasts through the shopping mall, people diving for cover, glass shattering raining down like little diamonds! Arms and legs go flying from the display mannequins. A T-shirt gets stuck to his windshield. He says he turns on his windshield wipers!!! We all laugh. I make a piloting check for they baddies. They follow but fall behind. As he comes out of the mall, he uses Astrogation to tell that he is far away from his intended destination and inside a rival mafia boss' territory!!! He can tell that the traffic lights, and even some construction zones have been set to purposely route him!!! He makes another check, and here comes another ace speeder pilot from the baddies, they swerve and play a little bumper cars on the highway. The other pilot makes a good check, and forces him off the highway at a certain exit. The Duro makes a perception check!!! He looks to his left just in time to see a huge replusorlift tractor trailer truck running a red light and slam him to full force!!! The limo land speeder he is driving flips over several times, he takes some wound damage, and the door is crushed in!!!! He makes his Resilance check and doesn't pass out!!! He is awake to see people get out and kidnap his passenegr, his Hut crime boss!!!! The horror!!!

So that is in nutshell, how I do a chase. I of course set this particular scene up in a bad way for my players, as it was meant for hm to loose. It was the first time he lost!!! He took it in great stride, and my players know that I want to tell a fun and exciting story, not just beat them up all the time. I did forewarn my group that that adventure would be the toughest one I ever ran for them, so be prepared!!! I really try to just keep stuff basic and simple, and drive in the action and excitement, not distance counting. I had enough of that from Saga. I know I beat that system up about every post, I'm sorry. For those that loveit, that's great. Everyone love different stuff. For me and my group, the high adventure, cinematic feel, with pretty vague distance measurement work for us.

We all got a great laugh at that. Anyway. On to the grenade. Like I said, I never use them. We were fuzzy on the rule, I did a quick read through, and they had enough advantage to activate blast!! So everyone in the room got hit with the grenade, and then the blast. For about 10-15 minutes there was a ton of debate going on on about "real world" physics, real world grendades, ranged defense, cover, YouTube greande videos were mentioned, blah, blah, blah, blah....we ourselves prevented the system form dong its job. The greande hit. Blast was activated. Everyone in range takes the additional damage. The end. No cover, no melee/range defense, and most importantly, and often over looked, no Adversay Talent! Of course Soak is applied. It should be quick, and we didn't let it be quick. The next session, I talked to the players, explained up how it should work, and everyone agrees that that is ok.

I hope you told them that the main damage from the grenade is only applied to one person, who is the target of the grenade. No one else suffers that damage. If blast is activated, then everyone within blast range takes that damage — except the target of the grenade, because they’ve already been hit, and the damage done to them incorporates everything that grenade is capable of.

Well, I guess if one person activates the grenade and then uses their body to hold the grenade against someone else, then those two people would qualify as being targets of the grenade. But normally, there is only one target.

I guess I need to go re-re-re-read the grenade rules again.............

Apparently old habits from other systems are hard to break...

Trust me, I have had no end of problems with understanding how grenades are supposed to work, if you guy by the rules as written.

It takes actually trying to use them and seeing what the respective out comes are of various interpretations, and then asking yourself which of those might be “munchkin” or simply “not appropriately cinematic”.

And then more experimentation.

Don’t feel bad. I am not at all convinced that I have seen any one person completely explain in one place how grenades work, and get everything right. At least, not with regards to this system.