Are the TO's allowed to not allow certain people entry at their own discretion, or if they hold an official tournament are they compelled to let anybody enter except those on FFG's list? I think it should be the latter.

It seems odd that if you as a store owner bans a player for cheating or misbehaving at a MtG tournament are NOT allowed to keep him/her from entering an X-wing tournament.

The problem is you could have a TO who's just a bad person, maybe racist or homophobic or just for some other reason has it in for a given person and doesn't want to let them play. I think it would be right for FFG to say "if you're using our name, hosting an official tournament kit, then you let anybody enter who isn't on our ban list".

I agree, discrimination should be prevented when possible. But what if a store owner has a ban list of his own? I don't think FFG is capable of (or maybe even interested in) enforcing a limitation of store owners autonomy.

This should have never ever be posted on any forums. If you find a cheater or think you found one present the evidence to FFG or the TO and wait for them to take action.Starting a witch hunt on the internet is not the way to handle stuff like that.

I completely disagree. Cheating once in boardgaming is already too much, and it should be a zero tolerance kind of policy. As gamers, the only defense we have against cheaters is to rely on reputation when choosing who we play with. Our free time is valuable, as is our money (when we buy ships, travel, and pay tourney fees). When someone cheats, they should face a public shaming so that the rest of us can know whom to avoid (or who to play at our discretion, if we're very forgiving).I agree that "witch hunts" and accusations should not be thrown around lightly or without evidence, but in this case there existed ample video evidence of this individual cheating. Surely FFG gets to make a final call on his official ban (or non ban) from FFG events, but this wasn't some mere "he said" vs "he said" kind of witch hunt.This was: hey:watch this video at times x, y, and z on 1/2 speed. Not the movement of the fingers, dial, and flexing of the muscles. Note that it only happens when the opponent is distracted and when a crucial unexpected maneuver occurs. Note the unusual body language and way the dial is presented immediately after. Note the way this "nervous habit" does not occur during any other moments. and so forth

Yeah, some people here seem to think it's a witch hunt and a "mob mentality" even if the guy is obviously cheating.Hell, I'm willing to bet that some of the people here would still defend the accused if there was a video of them taking away damage cards from the deck and putting them in their pocket.

I agree, it seems obvious he's cheating. The problem is, something seeming obvious does not make it correct.

Wasn't referring to this one, just that it doesn't matter how obvious it was, there would still be people defending him.

Are the TO's allowed to not allow certain people entry at their own discretion, or if they hold an official tournament are they compelled to let anybody enter except those on FFG's list? I think it should be the latter.

It seems odd that if you as a store owner bans a player for cheating or misbehaving at a MtG tournament are NOT allowed to keep him/her from entering an X-wing tournament.

The problem is you could have a TO who's just a bad person, maybe racist or homophobic or just for some other reason has it in for a given person and doesn't want to let them play. I think it would be right for FFG to say "if you're using our name, hosting an official tournament kit, then you let anybody enter who isn't on our ban list".

I agree, discrimination should be prevented when possible. But what if a store owner has a ban list of his own? I don't think FFG is capable of (or maybe even interested in) enforcing a limitation of store owners autonomy.

I don't know about other countries, but in Sweden, store owners are allowed, by law, to deny entry to anyone they please.

If you can prove they're doing it for racist (or similar) reasons, then you can report them for that, but the basic rule is that it's their shop and they decide who enters and who doesn't.

I think the most FFG could do about it, would be to not allow that store to host a championship. At least not an official one.

Verdict by FFG.https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/spolicy/

The list now has 2 People om it

Is that the guy from this video or is it someone else?

As far as I know, the name of the person in this video was never divulged in the thread here. (maby on the german forums?)

This is the guy in this (removed) video.

And his name was not revalidering in the tjread,but I have it confirmed by several of the Germans players I know

I don't think FFG is capable of (or maybe even interested in) enforcing a limitation of store owners autonomy.

...

I think the most FFG could do about it, would be to not allow that store to host a championship. At least not an official one.

That's exactly the solution I'd expect/suggest. You want to host one of our tournaments, you play by our rules.

It's a tricky one though. A cheat's a cheat - it doesn't matter if last time they cheated was in a different game, there's clearly an argument for allowing people/organisations their own ban lists.

This is the guy in this (removed) video.

And his name was not revalidering in the tjread,but I have it confirmed by several of the Germans players I know

Ok, good.

At least we can lay to rest the "you can't possibly see that he's cheating" arguments then, since FFG obviously could.

The player published a statement of what happened in a german community forum. I'm not sure if he wants it to be posted here though. Maybe i'll ask him so this speculation thread can be layed to rest at some point.

EDIT:

I asked and he told me it is ok to post his statement here as anyone of the community judged him already anyway.

I won't translate the whole text but the important parts about what happend:

He claims that he never cheated before or even had the intention to do it.

However at the given turn (2nd time picking up the dial in th video, the turn he escaped the X-Wings) he was cought in the situation by the dark side and thought about cheating. He then started rotating the dial to a different move. However his concience said hello and he rotated the maneauver dial back to his original move. He also said that this is why he had to check the dial so often.

He said sorry to his enemy of this game. He also said he sees the attempt to cheat as an act that he should be judged/punished on by Heidelberger/FFG.

He states that this was the first time cheating, that he even at the start of the game didn't intent to do it and that he by no means tried to practice this at home.

The player published a statement of what happened in a german community forum. I'm not sure if he wants it to be posted here though. Maybe i'll ask him so this speculation thread can be layed to rest at some point.

EDIT:

I asked and he told me it is ok to post his statement here as anyone of the community judged him already anyway.

I won't translate the whole text but the important parts about what happend.

He claims that he never cheated before or even had the intention to do it.

However at the given turn (2nd time picking up the dial in th video, the turn he escaped the X-Wings) he was cought in the situation by the dark side and thought about cheating. He then started rotating the dial to a different move. However his concience said hello and he rotated the maneauver dial back to his original move. He also said that this is why he had to check the dial so often.

He said sorry to his enemy of this game. He also said he sees the attempt to cheat as an act that he should be judged/punished on by Heidelberger/FFG.

He states that this was the first time cheating, that he even at the start of the game didn't intent to do it and that he by no means tried to practice this at home.

This is from him.

This is from him.

.

Lol.

While I can sympathize, and maybe even accept the explanation, once this path has been tread it is nearly impossible to go back. It is difficult to believe someone is being honest about their dishonesty. See the conundrum?

But it still makes no sense. Why would you want to dial away from the perfect move? That is very difficult to believe/accept, for me anyway.

This is from him.

.

Lol.

While I can sympathize, and maybe even accept the explanation, once this path has been tread it is nearly impossible to go back. It is difficult to believe someone is being honest about their dishonesty. See the conundrum?

But it still makes no sense. Why would you want to dial away from the perfect move? That is very difficult to believe/accept, for me anyway.

He descibed more about what he thought about the exact moves. I was to lazy to translate everything he wrote in the statement. Honestly i also think its not necessary. Some will believe him some will doubt him. No matter what he writes from now on.

The player published a statement of what happened in a german community forum. I'm not sure if he wants it to be posted here though. Maybe i'll ask him so this speculation thread can be layed to rest at some point.

EDIT:

I asked and he told me it is ok to post his statement here as anyone of the community judged him already anyway.

I won't translate the whole text but the important parts about what happend:

He claims that he never cheated before or even had the intention to do it.

However at the given turn (2nd time picking up the dial in th video, the turn he escaped the X-Wings) he was cought in the situation by the dark side and thought about cheating. He then started rotating the dial to a different move. However his concience said hello and he rotated the maneauver dial back to his original move. He also said that this is why he had to check the dial so often.

He said sorry to his enemy of this game. He also said he sees the attempt to cheat as an act that he should be judged/punished on by Heidelberger/FFG.

He states that this was the first time cheating, that he even at the start of the game didn't intent to do it and that he by no means tried to practice this at home.

Ugh. Well that's embarrassing.

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter if he changed the maneuver back. Once he actually manipulated the dial, he was violating the rules (I didn't watch the video, so I don't know if he announced checking of dials beforehand). That should be an instant DQ. What a bummer.

You know, I used to be a shoplifter, when I was a youngling.

I was caught once.

I said, "I was about to put it back!" like a kid caught in the candy jar.

Was I going to put it back? No. I just thought it might be an excuse that would get me out of more trouble.

I hear the same thing in this announcement, "I thought about cheating, but no, I didn't, I turned the dial back instead of cheating!"

You know, I used to be a shoplifter, when I was a youngling.

I was caught once.

I said, "I was about to put it back!" like a kid caught in the candy jar.

Was I going to put it back? No. I just thought it might be an excuse that would get me out of more trouble.

I hear the same thing in this announcement, "I thought about cheating, but no, I didn't, I turned the dial back instead of cheating!"

I agree that it might be a possibility, however the difference is that he said he did cheat even with the attempt

You know, I used to be a shoplifter, when I was a youngling.

I was caught once.

I said, "I was about to put it back!" like a kid caught in the candy jar.

Was I going to put it back? No. I just thought it might be an excuse that would get me out of more trouble.

I hear the same thing in this announcement, "I thought about cheating, but no, I didn't, I turned the dial back instead of cheating!"

I agree that it might be a possibility, however the difference is that he said he did cheat even with the attempt

Please remember that he also said many things before that statement which totally differed from his final apology...! :/

I wouldnt say totally, but he didn't admit it right away.

You know, I used to be a shoplifter, when I was a youngling.

I was caught once.

I said, "I was about to put it back!" like a kid caught in the candy jar.

Was I going to put it back? No. I just thought it might be an excuse that would get me out of more trouble.

I hear the same thing in this announcement, "I thought about cheating, but no, I didn't, I turned the dial back instead of cheating!"

Yup, got caught post-stealing when I was a kid.

My mom found a plastic toy car (you know, the ones that were practically rubber) in my pocket. She made me go all the way back down to the store, give it back, and apologise.

Never stole anything again.

Public shaming is very effective.

(i was 8 at the time)

Yup, got caught post-stealing when I was a kid.

My mom found a plastic toy car (you know, the ones that were practically rubber) in my pocket. She made me go all the way back down to the store, give it back, and apologise.

Never stole anything again.

Public shaming is very effective.

(i was 8 at the time)

You know, I used to be a shoplifter, when I was a youngling.

I was caught once.

I said, "I was about to put it back!" like a kid caught in the candy jar.

Was I going to put it back? No. I just thought it might be an excuse that would get me out of more trouble.

I hear the same thing in this announcement, "I thought about cheating, but no, I didn't, I turned the dial back instead of cheating!"

Yup, got caught post-stealing when I was a kid.

My mom found a plastic toy car (you know, the ones that were practically rubber) in my pocket. She made me go all the way back down to the store, give it back, and apologise.

Never stole anything again.

Public shaming is very effective.

(i was 8 at the time)

The trick with public shaming is that you've just got to be very, very, careful that you're right.

Sure, "we" (inasmuch as there is a "we" involved) may be two for two in recent threads, with clear video evidence and both cheaters eventually owning up to it. But that doesn't mean we can take it for granted when there's a third video (especially if language barriers are an issue), or a fourth, or a fifth, and that doesn't mean that taking it to the forums is the way to go with all these cases; going through proper channels, notifying a TO, notifying FFG, etc, etc, is the way to get folks added to that list of suspended players, not rousing up a bunch of angry forumites alone.

You know, I used to be a shoplifter, when I was a youngling.

I was caught once.

I said, "I was about to put it back!" like a kid caught in the candy jar.

Was I going to put it back? No. I just thought it might be an excuse that would get me out of more trouble.

I hear the same thing in this announcement, "I thought about cheating, but no, I didn't, I turned the dial back instead of cheating!"

Yup, got caught post-stealing when I was a kid.

My mom found a plastic toy car (you know, the ones that were practically rubber) in my pocket. She made me go all the way back down to the store, give it back, and apologise.

Never stole anything again.

Public shaming is very effective.

(i was 8 at the time)

The trick with public shaming is that you've just got to be very, very, careful that you're right.

Sure, "we" (inasmuch as there is a "we" involved) may be two for two in recent threads, with clear video evidence and both cheaters eventually owning up to it. But that doesn't mean we can take it for granted when there's a third video (especially if language barriers are an issue), or a fourth, or a fifth, and that doesn't mean that taking it to the forums is the way to go with all these cases; going through proper channels, notifying a TO, notifying FFG, etc, etc, is the way to get folks added to that list of suspended players, not rousing up a bunch of angry forumites alone.

Counterpoint: Neither of these recent videos were watched by TOs, the cheated party, or by FFG. They were watched and the cheat discovered by internet people with no ability to reach local players by normal means, because of a language or distance barrier.

Witch hunts ARE counter productive. However, by posting these videos here, information reached the local players and FFG itself quickly - and if they had NOT been obvious cheats it would have been dismissed just as quickly.

As others have said, though, cheating dials is far too obvious (witness how clear it was on camera!) and loading dice near impossible. Better sleight of hand skills COULD work, but at that point you may as well run a Find The Lady game on a street corner. It'd be a lot easier to cheat a deck by stacking it, and why go to any more effort than you have to?

Yup, got caught post-stealing when I was a kid.

My mom found a plastic toy car (you know, the ones that were practically rubber) in my pocket. She made me go all the way back down to the store, give it back, and apologise.

Never stole anything again.

Public shaming is very effective.

(i was 8 at the time)

Actual public shaming would involve your mom telling everyone in the neighbourhood. Or the modern version: putting it on facebook, to be remembered for eternity.

You should realize that I come from a very small community where everyone knows everyone.

So yeah, it was the equivalent of my mom telling everyone in the neighborhood. Or rather, everyone in town.

You know, I used to be a shoplifter, when I was a youngling.

I was caught once.

I said, "I was about to put it back!" like a kid caught in the candy jar.

Was I going to put it back? No. I just thought it might be an excuse that would get me out of more trouble.

I hear the same thing in this announcement, "I thought about cheating, but no, I didn't, I turned the dial back instead of cheating!"

Yup, got caught post-stealing when I was a kid.

My mom found a plastic toy car (you know, the ones that were practically rubber) in my pocket. She made me go all the way back down to the store, give it back, and apologise.

Never stole anything again.

Public shaming is very effective.

(i was 8 at the time)

The trick with public shaming is that you've just got to be very, very, careful that you're right.

Sure, "we" (inasmuch as there is a "we" involved) may be two for two in recent threads, with clear video evidence and both cheaters eventually owning up to it. But that doesn't mean we can take it for granted when there's a third video (especially if language barriers are an issue), or a fourth, or a fifth, and that doesn't mean that taking it to the forums is the way to go with all these cases; going through proper channels, notifying a TO, notifying FFG, etc, etc, is the way to get folks added to that list of suspended players, not rousing up a bunch of angry forumites alone.

By public shaming, I mean ending up on FFG's banned list.

Not us forumists running around shouting "cheater" at someone.

Humongous difference.

That said, this wouldn't have come to FFG's attention if nobody posted the videos here.

PS. also, this thread is anything but public shaming. You can't see the players face in the video, you don't know who the player is by name, you don't even know their forum name. All you know is the players youtube channel.

Sure, you can figure out the players name by really digging into it, by checking who played at the tournament and who played with that exact setup, but that's not public shaming... that's you digging out who did something.

Also, the OP didn't post this a "This person is definately cheating!", instead it was a "this looks like cheating, what do you guys think?" which is two completely different stances.

The same goes for the other thread (albeit somewhat more aggressive in that one).

Point is, if you're saying that we can never question whether or not someone might be cheating, that's a very foolish mentality.

....if you're saying that we can never question whether or not someone might be cheating, that's a very foolish mentality.

....if you're saying that we can never question whether or not someone might be cheating, that's a very foolish mentality.

On the contrary. Exercising restraint, even if you are convinced that someone cheated, is a very wise thing to do.

Exercising restraint, like the OP pretty much saying, "Hey, I think I spotted cheating on the part of this player at the 2:13 mark, could you guys verify this, and who should this go to if true?" not, "OMFG THIS GUY CHEATED BURN HIM, BURN HIM!!"

Right now, you're wrong and your side has always been wrong. Aside from comments that were plainly not serious, the people acting most irrationally in the thread were those trying to paint ANY accusation of cheating a witchhunt.

Rolling eyes at someone's thread about "This guy used loaded dice!!1!" is perfectly rational. It's hard to load dice and stupid obvious when it happens. But dial manipulation is an easy way to cheat, and this guy was blatantly doing just that.

Showcasing obvious cheats has a chilling effect on cheaters. What a cheater fears most isn't losing a game, it's being caught CHEATING at that game - if he's a cowardly type he fears being ostracized from the group, if he's a bold type he fears that his marks will catch on and he won't be able to cheat any more. Thinking that the other people in your circle know how to spot these kind of cheats will amplify that fear, and make them less likely to cheat.

Exercising restraint, like the OP pretty much saying, "Hey, I think I spotted cheating on the part of this player at the 2:13 mark, could you guys verify this, and who should this go to if true?" not, "OMFG THIS GUY CHEATED BURN HIM, BURN HIM!!"