Anybody else want to throw some ideas out to see what the new stuff might look like in lists? I'm assuming a 20-point cost for the GR-75 here.

The biggest impacts of the flotillas that I've seen so far are:

1) blockers for the big ships, especially if Rieekan-powered

2) bomber wing enablers

3) mitigation of activation disadvantage on big-ship lists

So, applying two of those three:

First Wag (400/400)

==================

Home One: MC80 Command Cruiser (106 + 50)

+ General Dodonna (20)

+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)

+ Leading Shots (4)

+ Engine Techs (8)

+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)

+ Defiance (5)

Home One: MC80 Command Cruiser (106 + 39)

+ Toryn Farr (7)

+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)

+ Leading Shots (4)

+ Engine Techs (8)

+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)

+ Home One (7)

GR-75 Transport (20 + 8)

+ Bomber Command Center (8)

Squadrons: Jan Ors (19)

Squadrons: X-wing Squadron (13)

Squadrons: X-wing Squadron (13)

Squadrons: X-wing Squadron (13)

Squadrons: X-wing Squadron (13)

I think the BCC could overcome my hatred of using X-wings as bombers, giving the Rebels a true multirole fighter again like the A-wing was in Wave 1. Mix that with the ability to kill flotillas with Home One guaranteed accuracies, and a flot of my own to mitigate the activation disadvantage of the MC80's, and it might be a decent all-comers list.

I'm working on an updated Haven/Yavaris carrier list too. I think there's a lot of potential there, with BCC and Toryn giving turbo-mode to the ace bombers like Luke and Nym. I think those two upgrades will have a multiplicative effect with Yavaris without completely relying on any one part of the combo to be effective (ie, can't easily be neutered by killing just one part of the combo).

Any other thoughts on the new stuff from a listing perspective?

Or, leaning a little harder into the X-wings-as-bombers thing:

Wave 1++ (394/400)

=================

Assault Frigate Mark II: Assault Frigate Mk.II B (72 + 35)

+ General Dodonna (20)

+ Flight Controllers (6)

+ Boosted Comms (4)

+ XX-9 Turbolasers (5)

Assault Frigate Mark II: Assault Frigate Mk.II B (72 + 25)

+ Expanded Hangar Bay (5)

+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)

+ XX-9 Turbolasers (5)

+ Gallant Haven (8)

GR-75 Transport (20 + 9)

+ Toryn Farr (7)

+ Comms Net (2)

GR-75 Transport (20 + 8)

+ Bomber Control Center (8)

Squadrons: Jan Ors (19)

Squadrons: X-wing Squadron (13)

Squadrons: X-wing Squadron (13)

Squadrons: X-wing Squadron (13)

Squadrons: X-wing Squadron (13)

Squadrons: X-wing Squadron (13)

Squadrons: X-wing Squadron (13)

Squadrons: X-wing Squadron (13)

Squadrons: X-wing Squadron (13)

Squadrons: Y-wing Squadron (10)

I'm just happy X-Wings are the shiz. X-Wings should always be the shiz.

That second list....that list looks scary.

I'm all for anything that puts more teeth into squadrons: it makes the no squadrons gambit that bit more painful.

Now I have to think about getting some more x-wings... dang, shoulda got more when they were being dumped in wave 1

That second list looks crazy. Nicely done!

I'm all for anything that puts more teeth into squadrons: it makes the no squadrons gambit that bit more painful.

Now I have to think about getting some more x-wings... dang, shoulda got more when they were being dumped in wave 1

Unless you want to run 10, oh my!

Personally, I know I'm low on X-Wings comparatively speaking... Because I have Z-95 Models escorting Firesprays instead...

... and I lost one model to a Closed S-Foil Test...

So I'm about 3 bases worth down at the moment.

Fixing red bomber dice. Brilliant.

MC80 Command Cruiser

-Independence

-Rieekan

-Boosted Comms

-Veteran Captain

-ECMs

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate

-Yavaris

-Toryn Farr

GR-75 Transport Flotilla

-Comms Net

GR-75 Transport Flotilla

-Bomber Command Center

Wedge

Dutch

Jan

4 B-Wings

1 X-Wing

400/400

Re-rolls for everybody!

Fixing red bomber dice. Brilliant.

"fixing"?

I thought they were red for the sake of balance...

X-wings are already a solid AS choice with Escort to boot, bomber was a bit much on them too but making it a red die made it palatable. Now getting to re-roll that fickle red suddenly makes x-wings a bit OP IMO

In any case, I have serious doubts that flotillas will be any less than 25 points and probably fall somewhere between 25-30 (Gozantis prob a bit pricier than the toothless transport) and are probably meant to fill the point gap between the most expensive squadron and the cheapest corvette. Also worth keeping in mind that these things will basically be bricks, just points for activations, if you don't put on one of the support upgrades and those will probably range from 7-10 points which should clock these guys in just below a naked corvette or naked raider.

Sure you can bring them in naked to even out activations and choke up movement but really they might end up being point gifts vs many lists.

I love OP XWings....

star wars = xwings

xwings = star wars

Fixing red bomber dice. Brilliant.

"fixing"?

I thought they were red for the sake of balance...

X-wings are already a solid AS choice with Escort to boot, bomber was a bit much on them too but making it a red die made it palatable. Now getting to re-roll that fickle red suddenly makes x-wings a bit OP IMO

In any case, I have serious doubts that flotillas will be any less than 25 points and probably fall somewhere between 25-30 (Gozantis prob a bit pricier than the toothless transport) and are probably meant to fill the point gap between the most expensive squadron and the cheapest corvette. Also worth keeping in mind that these things will basically be bricks, just points for activations, if you don't put on one of the support upgrades and those will probably range from 7-10 points which should clock these guys in just below a naked corvette or naked raider.

Sure you can bring them in naked to even out activations and choke up movement but really they might end up being point gifts vs many lists.

I don't know, you've also got to consider that you're dropping somewhere around 30-35 points to enable this (20-30 + 8 for BCC), and only in a limited range. So realistically you're paying ~16 points per X-wing, with a super flimsy single point of failure that you have to protect, that is only effective in a limited range... Nah, I don't think that's OP. Just a little bit different way of building for a well-rounded squadron-centric force.

If X-wings could do this naturally, sure it'd be OP. But they can't, so they're not.

Fixing red bomber dice. Brilliant.

"fixing"?

I thought they were red for the sake of balance...

X-wings are already a solid AS choice with Escort to boot, bomber was a bit much on them too but making it a red die made it palatable. Now getting to re-roll that fickle red suddenly makes x-wings a bit OP IMO

In any case, I have serious doubts that flotillas will be any less than 25 points and probably fall somewhere between 25-30 (Gozantis prob a bit pricier than the toothless transport) and are probably meant to fill the point gap between the most expensive squadron and the cheapest corvette. Also worth keeping in mind that these things will basically be bricks, just points for activations, if you don't put on one of the support upgrades and those will probably range from 7-10 points which should clock these guys in just below a naked corvette or naked raider.

Sure you can bring them in naked to even out activations and choke up movement but really they might end up being point gifts vs many lists.

I don't know, you've also got to consider that you're dropping somewhere around 30-35 points to enable this (20-30 + 8 for BCC), and only in a limited range. So realistically you're paying ~16 points per X-wing, with a super flimsy single point of failure that you have to protect, that is only effective in a limited range... Nah, I don't think that's OP. Just a little bit different way of building for a well-rounded squadron-centric force.

If X-wings could do this naturally, sure it'd be OP. But they can't, so they're not.

Yeah, that's a good point. What is the range on that upgrade? if its small enough that the flotilla has to be in a danger envelope from ships then yes its no big deal cause it will go squish. It might be harder to deal with vs rhymerballs tho. I would swap the raider in my list for one of these in a skinny second and end up with more points to play with and a substantially better execution on the bombers. Not to mention a 2xSquadron activation ship with 1 command...

Fixing red bomber dice. Brilliant.

"fixing"?

I thought they were red for the sake of balance...

X-wings are already a solid AS choice with Escort to boot, bomber was a bit much on them too but making it a red die made it palatable. Now getting to re-roll that fickle red suddenly makes x-wings a bit OP IMO

In any case, I have serious doubts that flotillas will be any less than 25 points and probably fall somewhere between 25-30 (Gozantis prob a bit pricier than the toothless transport) and are probably meant to fill the point gap between the most expensive squadron and the cheapest corvette. Also worth keeping in mind that these things will basically be bricks, just points for activations, if you don't put on one of the support upgrades and those will probably range from 7-10 points which should clock these guys in just below a naked corvette or naked raider.

Sure you can bring them in naked to even out activations and choke up movement but really they might end up being point gifts vs many lists.

I don't know, you've also got to consider that you're dropping somewhere around 30-35 points to enable this (20-30 + 8 for BCC), and only in a limited range. So realistically you're paying ~16 points per X-wing, with a super flimsy single point of failure that you have to protect, that is only effective in a limited range... Nah, I don't think that's OP. Just a little bit different way of building for a well-rounded squadron-centric force.

If X-wings could do this naturally, sure it'd be OP. But they can't, so they're not.

Yeah, that's a good point. What is the range on that upgrade? if its small enough that the flotilla has to be in a danger envelope from ships then yes its no big deal cause it will go squish. It might be harder to deal with vs rhymerballs tho. I would swap the raider in my list for one of these in a skinny second and end up with more points to play with and a substantially better execution on the bombers. Not to mention a 2xSquadron activation ship with 1 command...

Distance 1-5 for Bomber Command

Yikes.

Well. Medium range + long range for a rhymerball, you can keep that thing well away from the ship you are shooting at and move pretty freely while still getting rerolls, but for non rhymer bombers you would have to be in almost red dice range

I'm all for anything that puts more teeth into squadrons: it makes the no squadrons gambit that bit more painful.

Now I have to think about getting some more x-wings... dang, shoulda got more when they were being dumped in wave 1

how do you not have 6-8?

Unless you want to run 10, oh my!

YES!

I've got 8 of them. I'm too scared to paint them because my later ships always look better than my earlier ones and I like them way, way too much.

I think BCC will make gunning for early superiority in the squadron game much more worth it- right now, the way bombers hit, I think it's a better idea to just intel/ignore fighters until your 6 turns are up.

Yikes.

Well. Medium range + long range for a rhymerball, you can keep that thing well away from the ship you are shooting at and move pretty freely while still getting rerolls, but for non rhymer bombers you would have to be in almost red dice range

Given the evade and the scatter i think red dice range of just about anything is falls under "acceptable risk" for the flotilla's

Yikes.

Well. Medium range + long range for a rhymerball, you can keep that thing well away from the ship you are shooting at and move pretty freely while still getting rerolls, but for non rhymer bombers you would have to be in almost red dice range

Given the evade and the scatter i think red dice range of just about anything is falls under "acceptable risk" for the flotilla's

Yep, the only way they're going down at Red Range is something that can throw an ACC and 4+ Damage after an Evade...

Which is (Before adding dice due to Ackbar / Concentrate Fire):

MonCal Assault Frigate Broadside

ISD-II Front Arc

.. But you're effectively having to roll ACC-Double-Double-Double, and have have a Double Evaded Away... Or ACC ACC Double Double Flat out...

If you're able to add things:

AFMK-II Broadside (With Ackbar or Concentrate)

Nebulon-B Front Arc (With Concentrate)

Victory SD (With Concentrate)

MC30c Scout Variant (With Ackbar)

CR90A (With Ackbar AND Concentrate)

But again, statistically, its still wildly against you to be throwing All Doubles and 1 Acc, or 2 Accs and 2 Doubles....

Good breakdown dras. As you said, the likelihood of getting that kill shot with only 4 reds is pretty underwhelming. I think the only things I would be concerned about leaving a floatilla in red range of would be;

Mon Cal w/Ackbar and/or Defiance (possibly)

ISD with Devestator procs.

With the rest? I'll take my chances.

Good breakdown dras. As you said, the likelihood of getting that kill shot with only 4 reds is pretty underwhelming. I think the only things I would be concerned about leaving a floatilla in red range of would be;

Mon Cal w/Ackbar and/or Defiance (possibly)

ISD with Devestator procs.

With the rest? I'll take my chances.

Most indeed...

Even then, you'd probably want Devestator Procs and either Leading Shots or Vader, just to be able to attempt to fix those dice. Because, Red Dice Suck.

Yes, expecting to one-hit these things at Range, Not happening...

Drive them into regular Blue range, and they'll evaporate more often then not... But that will also depend on what their Speed and Maneuver is like.

Home One + Ackbar will be murder on flotillas at most ranges, Otherwise, they will be pretty safe at long range.

Also, a TRC90 supported by home one, only because whatever comes up on the two rando dice is getting through.

Edit: ah, shmitty beat me there

I totally agree.

But I also find that, on these forums, I am laughed at by defending the MC80 in any way, shape or form.

I'm confused, why is Ard considering running less than 15 flotillas at once?