In my quest to slice things up, I have looked at the Victory 2 with a "maaaaaaaybe"

So what is its role her, desired upgrades?

I like Victories. Yes they're slow and can be cumbersome to manoeuvre, but they've got decent guns, the same hull strength as an MC80, a lot of options for upgrades and (importantly) a Victory-II is still 25 points cheaper than an Imperial-I.

So, it's old-fashioned, but I still run two Victories (a VSD-II and a VSD-I) plus a Gladiator a Raider and a 5-6 squadron fighter screen as one of my favourite builds. Four ships means that few Rebel builds are going to seriously out-class me for activations, and the Gladiator and Raider give me the flexibility of speed and movement if I need it.

Tend to kit out the VSD-II as my flagship, and the VSD-I as my carrier. I play about with the cards on the flagship, but always take gunnery teams so that I can make the most of that punchy front arc, and then often SW-7 ion batteries, Heavy turbo-laser turrets, that sort of thing. My carrier build is much more set in stone: Weapons liaison, flight controllers and expanded hangar bay. It gives me a solid setup for dealing with pesky squadrons, and VSD-I can more than handle itself in a firefight.

Victories aren't going to outrun your opponent, and they do need to be positioned carefully - they're not a ship that can easily get out of a bad set-up. But well used, and critically well supported, I find them a solid and effective base to work from.

Her role used to be best Imperial gunship.

The problem is the ISD came along and dethroned her. The same kinds of upgrades VSD-IIs used to like (Gunnery Teams, XI7s, Intel Officers) work much better on ISD-IIs nowadays.

As it currently stands I have a very hard time justifying the 12 points required to upgrade from a VSD-I to a VSD-II.

VSDs can't take ECMs

VSDs can't take ECMs

Good spot - getting confused between old and new builds. Edited now, cheers!

I like Victories.

[...]

Tend to kit out the VSD-II as my flagship, and the VSD-I as my carrier.

[...]

My carrier build is much more set in stone: Weapons liaison, flight controllers and expanded hangar bay.

I also still like Victorys, and I think they're more points-efficient in the carrier role. I've also gone with the VicII as the flagship and the VicI as another carrier. However, I wonder if this is actually a mistake, and the roles are best reversed.

The point of the carrier is to hang in the background. Because of the range of the guns, it seems to me that the VicII is better at hanging back, while the VicI is better at beating up on you up close and personal. Hanging back is also good for your flagship in order to protect your commander.

I used to like VSDs as the beef with an ISD and all kitted out for gunship roles. Problem is it's easy to pick off the VSDs and leave the ISD alone with one activation.

I feel like there is some potential left in the VSD as a ship, but it's outclassed by the Rebels when they are equipping upgrades for cheaper costs than the VSD's base.

I mean for what it's worth, I think the VSD-I has a place as a cheap (generally light to no upgrades) beefy gunship or as a cost-effective carrier. They're useful for area denial and for guarding ISD flanks and the like and all for a very affordable cost.

Back on topic, the problem is the VSD-II just doesn't really seem to be all-around 16% better than the VSD-I (upgrading only the black dice to blue dice and exchanging the ordnance slot for an ion cannon slot) and retains the same fundamental maneuver/speed problems. Ion cannon upgrades are generally not better than ordnance upgrades and blue dice, while longer-ranged than black dice, are not substantially longer-ranged (check the range stick for yourself, blue dice have about +50% the range of black dice, not +100% as is often assumed).

Back in the early days of wave 1 I ran VSD-IIs all the time. I thought it was insanity to run VSD-Is. Someone here on the forum made similar points to the ones I made above and so I started paying attention to how frequently I got blue dice when I wouldn't have gotten black dice and found it happened fairly rarely. I started trying VSD-Is and found they performed equivalently in most circumstances at a lower cost and I've been happy with them ever since.

I wonder if the Gonzanti will have a support card that can help out the VSD maneuverability table. Just speculation alas.

I have a soft spot for the Vics, as I like the sort of smaller battleship/heavy cruiser role they attempt to fill. I want to run them as a support for an ISD, but they just don't quite have the tools they need to be successful in that role. If they had two-dice AA batteries, for instance, that would help them in that cruiser role. So while I haven't been able to do much with them in wave 2, I still want them to work.

That said, I'm excited for what wave 3 will mean for the old girl. Assuming the Gozantis cost around 15-25pts, we now have to evaluate running an ISD II or a Vic II w/1-2 Gozantis for almost the same price. I don't think the Vic and Gozantis will replace and ISD (that would be far too crazy of a statement), but it'll be interesting to see what kind of combinations we can make. As it is, it's hard to create a 1-to-1 with a Vic and and ISD, because you're limited in what you can add to the Vic; there's not a great way to spend 40-60pts reasonably on a Vic to make it feel 40-60pts better. But with what we've seen with the flotillas thus far, that might be possible to make up in flotilla points. We'll see. It's an exciting time for Vic lovers!

I wonder if the Gonzanti will have a support card that can help out the VSD maneuverability table. Just speculation alas.

This would actually be a great idea. Medium and small ships at distance 1-5 add one extra click of yaw when moving at speed 2 or less?

I wonder if the Gonzanti will have a support card that can help out the VSD maneuverability table. Just speculation alas.

This would actually be a great idea. Medium and small ships at distance 1-5 add one extra click of yaw when moving at speed 2 or less?

Something like that. If they use a navigation token/dial. It would really improve the VSD even if it is stuck at speed 2.

So just to further add to the "VSDs sort of suck compared to a marginally more expensive ISD", what can FF do to bolster the strengths of the VSD and make it more attractive so that they end up seeing the table more often?

I think you have to have enough cheap squadrons in your build to let you delay deploying the VSD until either A- just before your opponent's last deployment or B- just after, otherwise you're generally too far away from the fight for it to be worth it's points. It is a nice commander vehicle with all that hull and shield to protect him, but you've got to get that offense in the fight.

Good deployment goes a long way to solve the VSD's maneuvering and speed disadvantages.

So just to further add to the "VSDs sort of suck compared to a marginally more expensive ISD", what can FF do to bolster the strengths of the VSD and make it more attractive so that they end up seeing the table more often?

A Support Team or Defensive Retrofit would be an immense improvement. Either by introducing some kind of Officer/other upgrade that allowed you to trash a different slot for it, or just Errata-ing it on to their cards.

Engine Techs would be a great help (see: MC80s) but the other Support Team slots would be **** interesting: Projection Experts on an Engineering 4 ship would actually be greatly useful in an Imperial fleet slogging across the gap to get to an Ackbar toilet swirl list; and Nav Teams would similarly help the VSD in turning less like a crippled brick.

A Defensive Retrofit would, obviously, be great for preventing that key brace from evaporating, making them pretty tough again (instead of just dead space meat.)

But aside from actually changing their cards, I don't think there's a huge amount you can offer VSDs without offering other things more. Which is kind of the problem with VSDs in my opinion...they're just subpar now.

So just to further add to the "VSDs sort of suck compared to a marginally more expensive ISD", what can FF do to bolster the strengths of the VSD and make it more attractive so that they end up seeing the table more often?

Add more compelling Offensive Retrofit upgrades. We all know how awesome Defensive Retrofits are, but thus far, the Offensive Retrofits have been lukewarm to say the least. Yes, Expanded Hanger Bays and Boosted Comms are nice, but they're only useful if you're flying non-rogue squads. Tractor Beams are cool, but only marginally useful on the medium-sized Vic. Point Defense Reroute and Quad Laser Turrets are... uh... let's be nice and say situational.

Now, if there were some Offensive Retrofit cards that actually gave significant boosts to your ships offensive output--like say added anti-ship dice, added anti-squad dice, modified speed, added real rerolls, boosted the effects of your ship's commands, &c., I think that might be enough to push Vics into a real competitive space. They're so close as is, but they miss the mark by thaaaaat much. A little boost in the form of an upgrade might be enough to make the difference.

...or it might just make all Imp ships better, and then no one would run Vics anyway. Who knows!

VSDs are still the best ship for camping on a Contested Outpost or denying a 3rd Intel Sweep token. They are an objective play ship on a faction that trends towards smashing the foe outright.

The VSD2 in particular trades oomph of area that it wants off limits for increased range of the area it doesn't want its opponent messing around in.

Personally, I think they do best with minimal upgrades as either an area denial tool (see objective ship above) or with a simple Tractor Beam to try and deny flankers a turn against them. Get something into that front arc (or better, double arc!) and watch even ISDs wince in pain. Deployment and Nav Dials are your first and best friends.

The problem with upgrading the VSD through an offensive slot is that you have the (better) assault frigate ready to reach its grubby rebel hands in and steal your card to become even better. The A/F shares the same upgrade profile as the VSD-II, except trading out the (hardly used) ion slot for a Defensive Slot.

So you have to think about ways that the VSD benefits more from the card than the A/F does. Two ways I can think of immediately:

Cards that cost 1 point of damage. VSDs can tank it, A/Fs can't. The effect has to be significantly powerful enough to do so.

Cards that cause redirect tokens to be exhausted: ISDs, VSDs, MC80s, and MC30s are the only ships with multiple redirects. Any other ships would be a little pressed to exhaust their one redirect to use whatever this is. And if it's an offensive slot, the MC30 can't take it.

Two VSDs in a 4 ship list with Motti is pretty tough. Even as a carrier, you can basically deploy them right in the middle of the battle (unless the middle has an opposing ISD2 - found that out the hard way!). VSDs can go gun for gun with MC80s if you can close the range.

On the VSD2, this is the one I have trouble with. Its a very steep price hike (12 points!) and I find I can configure a VSD1 for a role better than a VSD2 is at anything, for the same order of points. A VSD2 properly fitted out for combat (gunnery team, XI7, some sort of officer) crosses the 100 point level at which point you should just take an ISD1.

And VSD1 with Dominator is just so flexible and capable.

A bit like Fung Fu Masters Neb B thread, I think (short of dropping VSD2 to 73 points), the best solution would be a "Galactic Civil War Refit" VSD2 only mod that let the VSD2 only take a defensive retrofit. Even then I think she would struggle - blue dice are great, but they aren't worth a 12 point hike.

I think that the issue with the victory for a lot of people stems back to their lack of manoeuvrability. Interestingly, this ties in with the canon: early in the days of the Empire, its propulsion systems were found to be inadequate, and those that remained in service had theirs replaced with Hoersch-Kessel Drive engines. This was technically the distinction between a Victory I-class and a Victory II-class, but it's not a distinction that's been carried through to Armada.

I wonder if there would be a way to produce a Victory-only upgrade that reflected this? Previously I've suggested an upgrade card along these lines:

Hoersch-Kessel Drive Engine refit

Modification

Victory only

Your maximum speed is increased by one.

At this speed, your yaw values are as follows:

[ I ]

[ I ]

[--]

Might fix the problem, but it's difficult to see how it would work - what upgrade slot would you put it in? And would you need to replicate it in other ships to be fair? You could possibly introduce a pack of cards along this idea of upgrading all the ships in both factions (call it the "Re-fit pack" and introduce cheap upgrades for individual ships that correct minor issues), but whether this would work or fit with how FFG do things is questionable.

The only other similar solution I can see is FFG releasing a card-set that creates a Victory MKII, based around the idea of this upgrade.

I have struggled to find a use for the VSD-II because of the cost to make it a valuable asset. I don't have an issue with it's movement really, I just use Nav Commands. I find that even as a carrier, it is better replaced with an ISD. Now, the VSD-I, I love that ship. I run mine with Expanded Launchers, Ordnance Experts and Xi-7 Turbolasers in a fleet with Motti. It can take a great deal of punishment and hands out massive damage from the front arc. I have had great success with it.

The VSD-II really doesn't do anything really well and that is it's downfall. The Empires ships are pretty specialist and so a weakish Jack of all Trades is hard to find a spot for at it's point cost.

So just to further add to the "VSDs sort of suck compared to a marginally more expensive ISD", what can FF do to bolster the strengths of the VSD and make it more attractive so that they end up seeing the table more often?

I'm going to contest the phrase "marginally more expensive" compared to an ISD. An ISD-I is 51% more expensive than a VSD-I. An ISD-II is 41% more expensive than a VSD-II. That's a considerable number of points. If you're the sort of person who likes layering on lots of upgrades then that base cost difference may seem less important, but my counterpoint would be: stop layering on tons of upgrades. It's generally not a good idea. If you are the kind of guy who likes to do that, ISDs are much better situated for that style of list building (as I mentioned above).

In terms of what I'd like to see to make VSDs more appealing: Anything that can improve speed or maneuverability would be pretty much all you'd need. I'd consider one of two options:

Engine retrofit (Kuat Drive Yards whatever) - offensive retrofit slot

Modification.

This ship treats the first [-] segment for each speed value on its maneuver chart as a [ I ] segment.

If this ship is speed 2 or less, it gains the ability to set its speed to 3 and uses the following chart:

[ - ]

[ I ]

[ - ]

(Keep in mind that the first effect improves this maneuver chart too)

This uses the offensive retrofit slot but is not a very appealing upgrade for Assault Frigates or ISDs. It's somewhat appealing for MC80s just for the speed 3. A VSD would be able to use both of the effects (except at speed 1, but that's in keeping with the maneuver charts for other heavier ships at speed 1)

Ion propulsion reroute - ion cannon slot

Modification

If this ship does not fire any blue dice during its turn, put a blue dice on this card at the end of its activation. This card cannot store more than one blue dice.

Spend blue dice on this card during maneuver: this ship gains either one click of yaw (anywhere on its chart) or may move one additional segment straight ahead

This uses the ion cannon slot and would be useful for VSD-IIs specifically, but also a number of other ships (ISD-Is in particular, but also ISD-IIs, MC80s, Raider-IIs, CR90Bs). The Assault Frigate does not have an ion cannon slot, so it loses out.

I have struggled to find a use for the VSD-II because of the cost to make it a valuable asset. I don't have an issue with it's movement really, I just use Nav Commands. I find that even as a carrier, it is better replaced with an ISD. Now, the VSD-I, I love that ship. I run mine with Expanded Launchers, Ordnance Experts and Xi-7 Turbolasers in a fleet with Motti. It can take a great deal of punishment and hands out massive damage from the front arc. I have had great success with it.

The VSD-II really doesn't do anything really well and that is it's downfall. The Empires ships are pretty specialist and so a weakish Jack of all Trades is hard to find a spot for at it's point cost.

Pete, how do you run your VSDs when facing Raiders or GSDs with activation advantage? Besides flying into an Ackbar broadside, this is the place I feel VSDs struggle the most, after experiencing it firsthand.

I bring a Raider of my own and run the VSD staggered with my ISD-I, even Demolisher doesn't like either a VSD or an ISD opening up on her. I have found the biggest menace is the CR-90 swarm.

I have struggled to find a use for the VSD-II because of the cost to make it a valuable asset. I don't have an issue with it's movement really, I just use Nav Commands. I find that even as a carrier, it is better replaced with an ISD. Now, the VSD-I, I love that ship. I run mine with Expanded Launchers, Ordnance Experts and Xi-7 Turbolasers in a fleet with Motti. It can take a great deal of punishment and hands out massive damage from the front arc. I have had great success with it.

The VSD-II really doesn't do anything really well and that is it's downfall. The Empires ships are pretty specialist and so a weakish Jack of all Trades is hard to find a spot for at it's point cost.

Pete, how do you run your VSDs when facing Raiders or GSDs with activation advantage? Besides flying into an Ackbar broadside, this is the place I feel VSDs struggle the most, after experiencing it firsthand.

My wave 1 experience taught me that VSDs work best when you employ the speed 1 "creep menacingly forward" option. Gives your Rhymer ball more time to eat, you get the most of your limited maneuverability, and you will get one long range shot off before the GSDs close. In theory it should work on Raiders too, as they tend to get unwieldy at speed 4. By the time wave 2 rolled in GSDs no longer held any fear for me. Demolisher could still hurt, but, where do you think the good Major hit first?