I don't know if I'm walking into a hornet's nest here, but I found this response to someone asking they would improve FFG's sales if not with their new policy and I found it rather insightful:

How Would You Improve Sales for FLGS?

Short answer: I WOULDN'T.

Long answer: Stop trying to "compete" with online retailers. Just stop. All retailers, just stop. They have every advantage you're never going to have. Online retailers have the selection, price, and convenience of priority-to-my-door-shipping you cannot top. You can talk about "personal attention" and customer service all you want. But the savvy customers, who especially fill a niche market like board gaming, don't need store staff to help curate their purchases. Your customers almost certainly know more about what they like and what they want than your staff can. The customer can specialize in their taste while your staff has to have broad knowledge to help any customer.

As a consumer I don't need nor want a Friendly Local Game Store. I want a Friendly Local Game Space. I want somewhere I can go with space accomodations I can meet my play group, tables big enough to fit games with large foot prints, a comfortable chair, good lighting, like-minded people to talk to when I want to socialize about my favourite hobby.

Be the thing an online store cannot be. Don't desperately try to be the thing you cannot be. Namely, the best quality for value proposition to the consumer. Online retail has an objective and unbeatable edge on that every time. So don't be a store; be a social hub. Be the place where gaming happens in your respective town or city. Be that place where whether I want to play some commander, LotR LCG, Terra Mystica, Scrabble, or Munchkin I know I can get a game in.

Just because you're not focused on retail, doesn't mean you can't engage in commerce. If you've got butts in your chairs for extended stays people need food, they need beverages. There are ancillary products to gaming which make sense to have on-hand as impulse buys or purchases-of-opportunity that people make as needs arise. Busted a sleeve? I'll just grab a new pack. Oh! Shiny dice! CCG singles on the secondary market are a very lucrative business (and have been for many years) for any savvy store. You can even opt-in or out of having cover. I would gladly pay a fiver for some table space. Hell, I already do without it being compulsory! Anytime I know I'm spending time at an FLGS using their table space I buy beverages to give them some money, even if I'm not particularly thirsty it's my way of ensuring something is paid for the use of their space and I'm not just completely freeloading.

Host social events, game tournaments, demo days, have a gaming library for public use (really helps justify that cover charge). Always have something going on. Have an event schedule that has something that would appeal to one type of gamer or another every day. And don't be afraid to adjust dates and times to see when fits that gamer "group" best. And ensure that you give these things proper time and promotion to gain traction.

Don't try to sell me games. I have a world's worth of retail options at the best possible prices at my very fingertips to buy my games; sell me events, sell me interaction, sell me an experience.

It is very valid, the few shops that are pleasant to visit, and are doing well, are all over this business model / concept. Lots of space, food, drinks, lots of things to impulse buy, a small shop space with stock on shelves for visiting customers, large storage, and a comprehensive website, that has all the information you could ever want, plus images of every single item they stock, they are making a killing.

This is the future of gaming stores, don't need to be sat slap bang on the high street in the city center, some where on the edge/outskirts, cheap rents, the rest is just gravy.

Edited to add : I don't even mind paying an extra £10 on my tournament ticket price to help out, you have 12-30 people turn up for a single day tournament paying an extra tenner each, plus drinks and food, soon adds up, and there is enough games out there to run this stuff every weekend.

Here in the Cleveland area we have 2 places such as you describe. We refer to them as Gamer Bars.

Malted Meeple is the "all are welcome" location that serves both adults and children.

http://maltedmeeple.com

The Side Quest is strictly for the over 21 crowd.

http://www.thesidequestbar.com/ABOUT.html

Both provide a stock of games that can be borrowed for a minimal fee, a willingness for people to bring in personal games and a friendly atmosphere.

I hear about magical gaming bars. They have space and food and booze. I would live there if I had one nearby.

Sweet sweet liver failure.

I hear about magical gaming bars. They have space and food and booze. I would live there if I had one nearby.

Sweet sweet liver failure.

I've been sorely tempted to try to open one myself.

I hear about magical gaming bars. They have space and food and booze. I would live there if I had one nearby.

Sweet sweet liver failure.

There are some near me (though none that serve booze). Until I feel comfortable enough to go to tournaments, there's really no incentive for me to go by; I can have 3 friends over, spend $20 on beer between all of us and we can play at my house to my hearts' content. We'll strike out to a FLGS soon enough, but since we have a decent sized group among my friends and it's closer (and cheaper) to play at home, I have no real reason NOT to buy online.

I hear about magical gaming bars. They have space and food and booze. I would live there if I had one nearby.

Sweet sweet liver failure.

I've been sorely tempted to try to open one myself.

DUDE... DUDE!

WE SHOULD TOTALLY BUY A BAR!

Yeah, this is a Honet's Nest. This topic has been a highly debated topic last summer and there is more to it than what this guy's opinions suggest.

To keep it short if you want a space to play and want a space for tournaments then I would say shop at your LGS's or they will not hold them. The LGS's survive mostly on Magic sales and tournaments and they have the other games to help supplement the rest of their financial needs. Also Game Store owners make about as much as we do for a take home profit so they are not rolling in money and if customers are not purchasing a specific game from their store and not spending money at their store they will not have a game night or tournaments at all. They make no money on tournaments and what you spend on sodas doesn't even pay for what they spend getting the beverage and the electricity to keep it cold, so again no money earned. If you still play at these stores and don't purchase from them you are technically loitering and they do not have to let you stay at all and can have you removed, but they will not because they are relying on the good faith that most of the players will spend their money there.

So ask yourself this question, do you have want a space to continue to be around or do you want to see it go away to make room for the next game that actually sells.

Also I am of the age when I was 20 no game store had no space to play and it was a game/hobby store that was your only option to get your games. Then came along Magic and that all change.

So if you think the LGS's sells miniature games to stay afloat you are wrong, Magic is their golden goose, they're just being nice to let Minianture players play in that space when there isn't a Magic night going on. Come Magic Night your out of luck though.

This is a potential hornets' nest, because we do have strong opinions about our FLGSs vs. online retailers. I'm assuredly a partisan for the FLGSs, but lets see if we can't come to some form of synthesis in the dialectic of this debate.

I agree with the gist of the OP's post (or that of the person to whom the OP is referring). The added-value that the FGLSs supply is social, not in expertise or material in the form of gaming product. (Beverages and snacks is another matter.)

However, I'm not sure that this doesn't make an FLGS selling product a losing proposition. Because they're social places, that implies solidarity. I buy from my FLGS (be that games or booze), because I love my FLGS and I want it to thrive. I realize that there's a markup, and I feel good about paying that markup, because it is a way for me to show that solidarity. But, obviously, people will be on different parts of the spectrum between social and narrowly rational, and that place on the spectrum will partially be determined by the amount of disposable income one has.

The thing is, I think a cover charge undermines the solidarity aspect. It creates direct reciprocity (an immediate quid pro quo), rather than generalized reciprocity (delayed quid pro quo based on trust). As such, I think the cover charge can work, but it's not for every establishment - especially not those in my area.

Cover charges I'm kinda meh about.

Paying into a league or a campaign though with prize support from the FLGS is my preferred method.

Yeah, this is a Honet's Nest. This topic has been a highly debated topic last summer and there is more to it than what this guy's opinions suggest.

To keep it short of you want a space to play and want a space for tournaments then I would say shop at your LGS's or they will not hold them. The LGS's survive mostly on Magic sales and tournaments and they have the other games to help supplement the rest of their financial needs. Also Game Store owners make about as much as we do for a take home profit so they are not rolling in money and if customers are not purchasing a specific game from their store and not spending money at their store they will not have a game night or tournaments at all. They make no money on tournaments and what you spend on sodas doesn't even pay for what they spend getting the beverage and the electricity to keep it cold, so again no money earned. If you still play at these stores and don't purchase from them you are technically loitering and they do not have to let you stay at all and can have you removed, but they will not do that because they are relying on the good faith that most of the players will spend their money there.

So ask yourself this question, do you have want a space to continue to be around or do you want to see it go away to make room for the next game that actually sells.

Also I am of the age when I was 20 no game store had no space to play and it was a game/hobby store that was your only option to get your games. Then came along Magic and that all change.

So if you think the LGS's sells miniature games to stay afloat you are wrong, Magic is their golden goose, they're just being nice to let Minianture players play in that space when there isn't a Magic night going on. Come Magic Night your out of luck though.

Sure. Like I said above, right now I don't really have need to go since I have 6-8 people whom I've shown Armada to and we hold our own game nights at our houses. I understand that that's different for people who don't have a large pool of gamer nerds as friends who may need to rely on the LGS model more. If we strike out into the world to play Armada it'll likely be at a store that also sells food/drink; I have most of what I need for Armada so I'd rather some good coffee or beer.

I understand needing to make a profit and monetize the people that come through the door (that's business), but the point of the post above is that it's more important for stores to create an experience and community rather than simply be vendors. The cafe model seems to be a good start.

Just remember that buffalo wings and miniature gaming DO NOT MIX

Cover charges I'm kinda meh about.

Paying into a league or a campaign though with prize support from the FLGS is my preferred method.

I agree with this sentiment...

I also agree with the original post in general. I realize in certain circumstances and certain areas it may not work.

I hope that asmodee ends up hurting itself with its new proposal through loss of sales and/or through lower marketing from online retailers that put products on sale front and center on their webpages.

Just remember that buffalo wings and miniature gaming DO NOT MIX

Think of it as a new paint scheme for said miniature model.... and it's also a paint scheme with a twist -- it tastes good!

If the choice is that online retailers are allowed to pass the savings on to customers from the lower operating costs, but I want to play in Tournaments, which means a physical place to do so, and they will struggle to do so due to the competition from online retailers.

I will happily pay for the times I choose to visit to play in a Tournament, than them artificially increasing the costs for online retailers so there is no difference in price between them and a brick and mortar store, that I will maybe visit once or twice a year.

Of the two, I'd much rather pay for the times I do visit, than pay a blanket cost across the board for everything, even if it means a membership cost.

Sure. Like I said above, right now I don't really have need to go since I have 6-8 people whom I've shown Armada to and we hold our own game nights at our houses. I understand that that's different for people who don't have a large pool of gamer nerds as friends who may need to rely on the LGS model more. If we strike out into the world to play Armada it'll likely be at a store that also sells food/drink; I have most of what I need for Armada so I'd rather some good coffee or beer.

So, this is a social structural issue. If your social network is one where you have a lot of what is called bonding social capital (people who are already a group engaged in an activity that bonds the group together). For you, all you need is to get the components. For you, online retail is great.

For a lot of us, the game is something that we use to meet other people and have fun interactions with. We are building bridging social capital (building ties between people who are not yet strongly connected), and using the game as a platform to do so. The FLGS provides a neutral location in which to do that. Without the FLGS, we don't have that rallying place. Unless we have that already-existing group, we don't have a reason to play, because we don't have people to play with.

I think FFG understands this, and they realize that our society is becoming less bonded - or, at least, the people who would enjoy their games tend to be more like the people who need to bridge, because bonded people are less likely to get into sci-fi games to begin with.

Cover charges I'm kinda meh about.

Paying into a league or a campaign though with prize support from the FLGS is my preferred method.

Now a separate gaming Cafe/Bar is probably the next big thing to come but the. Their sales will be from food and drinks which is a whole other business venture in itself. And they will cater to the Board gamers over Miniature players because of space issues. I've looked at this idea and honestly when space is a commodity Miniature Games are the worst business venture to cater to. Along with them also being the most temperamental customers too.

One of my FLGS is indeed getting a bar

Cover charges I'm kinda meh about.

Paying into a league or a campaign though with prize support from the FLGS is my preferred method.

And this as I mentioned above doesn't make them any money because they take that money you spent to get into the league and they put it into the prizes at the end. So again your playing there makes no profit for them.

Now a separate gaming Cafe/Bar is probably the next big thing to come but the. Their sales will be from food and drinks which is a whole other business venture in itself. And they will cater to the Board gamers over Miniature players because of space issues. I've looked at this idea and honestly when space is a commodity Miniature Games are the worst business venture to cater to. Along with them also being the most temperamental customers too.

Sounds great, so stores are losing out because they cannot compete with online sellers of miniatures, yet the stores don't really want the miniature gamers because they take up to much room/tempremental? I mean this is so much win, maybe you can let FFG/Asmodee know? that they are the worst business venture to cater to?

Cover charges I'm kinda meh about.

Paying into a league or a campaign though with prize support from the FLGS is my preferred method.

And this as I mentioned above doesn't make them any money because they take that money you spent to get into the league and they put it into the prizes at the end. So again your playing there makes no profit for them.

Now a separate gaming Cafe/Bar is probably the next big thing to come but the. Their sales will be from food and drinks which is a whole other business venture in itself. And they will cater to the Board gamers over Miniature players because of space issues. I've looked at this idea and honestly when space is a commodity Miniature Games are the worst business venture to cater to. Along with them also being the most temperamental customers too.

Money is money. You're operating a bar that caters to a certain clientele, in this case, gamers. A place just opened up near me that's 1/3 comic shop, 2/3 bar and restaurant; really, the comic/games side of it is mostly an afterthought but its atmosphere brings adult geeks into a place where they feel comfortable. I always like to patronize bars that have Akira and Revenge of the Sith posters out.

Armada takes up a lot of room, but that (and X-Wing, and other minis games) probably aren't going away. If you don't want to cater to them, you don't have to. This is about learning how to maximize profit from a group of gamers with a fair amount of disposable income. If you can give them good prices on gear, cool. If you can get them to spend $50 on local hi-gravs, good/better?

And this as I mentioned above doesn't make them any money because they take that money you spent to get into the league and they put it into the prizes at the end. So again your playing there makes no profit for them.

Now a separate gaming Cafe/Bar is probably the next big thing to come but the. Their sales will be from food and drinks which is a whole other business venture in itself. And they will cater to the Board gamers over Miniature players because of space issues. I've looked at this idea and honestly when space is a commodity Miniature Games are the worst business venture to cater to. Along with them also being the most temperamental customers too.

Sounds great, so stores are losing out because they cannot compete with online sellers of miniatures, yet the stores don't really want the miniature gamers because they take up to much room/tempremental? I mean this is so much win, maybe you can let FFG/Asmodee know? that they are the worst business venture to cater to?

He's saying that between the two models (game store and Game Cafe) miniature games are in an unhappy medium. Game stores make more profit off card gamers, whereas game cafes will have an interest in catering to board gamers.

I think this means that there is still a place or us to be, but it will have to be in some form of hybrid. Also, we should realize that FLGSs are going out of their way to help us out.

And this as I mentioned above doesn't make them any money because they take that money you spent to get into the league and they put it into the prizes at the end. So again your playing there makes no profit for them.

Now a separate gaming Cafe/Bar is probably the next big thing to come but the. Their sales will be from food and drinks which is a whole other business venture in itself. And they will cater to the Board gamers over Miniature players because of space issues. I've looked at this idea and honestly when space is a commodity Miniature Games are the worst business venture to cater to. Along with them also being the most temperamental customers too.

Sounds great, so stores are losing out because they cannot compete with online sellers of miniatures, yet the stores don't really want the miniature gamers because they take up to much room/tempremental? I mean this is so much win, maybe you can let FFG/Asmodee know? that they are the worst business venture to cater to?

He's saying that between the two models (game store and Game Cafe) miniature games are in an unhappy medium. Game stores make more profit off card gamers, whereas game cafes will have an interest in catering to board gamers.

I think this means that there is still a place or us to be, but it will have to be in some form of hybrid. Also, we should realize that FLGSs are going out of their way to help us out.

No, I don't think he is trying to misunderstand beatty as actually I thought the same thing.

I'm anti table fees. I'll buy the lions share now at the LGS's who sell the products. I even make sure to buy food and drink when I'm there as well and have no plans to buy products. But table fees to casually play are a huge turnoff for me.

And this as I mentioned above doesn't make them any money because they take that money you spent to get into the league and they put it into the prizes at the end. So again your playing there makes no profit for them.

Now a separate gaming Cafe/Bar is probably the next big thing to come but the. Their sales will be from food and drinks which is a whole other business venture in itself. And they will cater to the Board gamers over Miniature players because of space issues. I've looked at this idea and honestly when space is a commodity Miniature Games are the worst business venture to cater to. Along with them also being the most temperamental customers too.

Sounds great, so stores are losing out because they cannot compete with online sellers of miniatures, yet the stores don't really want the miniature gamers because they take up to much room/tempremental? I mean this is so much win, maybe you can let FFG/Asmodee know? that they are the worst business venture to cater to?

He's saying that between the two models (game store and Game Cafe) miniature games are in an unhappy medium. Game stores make more profit off card gamers, whereas game cafes will have an interest in catering to board gamers.

I think this means that there is still a place or us to be, but it will have to be in some form of hybrid. Also, we should realize that FLGSs are going out of their way to help us out.

No, I don't think he is trying to misunderstand beatty as actually I thought the same thing.

You're referring to something I had edited out of my post, before you quoted me. But, fair enough, I wrote it - and I think it's still correct. You are mischaracterizing his post and attacking him on what you think he said.

I don't think the attack on Beatty's post is warranted. The attack is a sarcastic hyperbole. What's the point of posting like that? Also, it's mischaracterizing what he's saying by lumping all stores together, rather than differentiating between stores and cafes, which is the point of his post.

Beatty is not saying that stores don't want tabletop mini gamers; he's saying that both types have a built-in preference for other types of gamers.

And this as I mentioned above doesn't make them any money because they take that money you spent to get into the league and they put it into the prizes at the end. So again your playing there makes no profit for them.

Now a separate gaming Cafe/Bar is probably the next big thing to come but the. Their sales will be from food and drinks which is a whole other business venture in itself. And they will cater to the Board gamers over Miniature players because of space issues. I've looked at this idea and honestly when space is a commodity Miniature Games are the worst business venture to cater to. Along with them also being the most temperamental customers too.

Sounds great, so stores are losing out because they cannot compete with online sellers of miniatures, yet the stores don't really want the miniature gamers because they take up to much room/tempremental? I mean this is so much win, maybe you can let FFG/Asmodee know? that they are the worst business venture to cater to?

He's saying that between the two models (game store and Game Cafe) miniature games are in an unhappy medium. Game stores make more profit off card gamers, whereas game cafes will have an interest in catering to board gamers.

I think this means that there is still a place or us to be, but it will have to be in some form of hybrid. Also, we should realize that FLGSs are going out of their way to help us out.

No, I don't think he is trying to misunderstand beatty as actually I thought the same thing.

You're referring to something I had edited out of my post, before you quoted me. But, fair enough, I wrote it - and I think it's still correct. You are mischaracterizing his post and attacking him on what you think he said.

I don't think the attack on Beatty's post is warranted. The attack is a sarcastic hyperbole. What's the point of posting like that? Also, it's mischaracterizing what he's saying by lumping all stores together, rather than differentiating between stores and cafes, which is the point of his post.

Beatty is not saying that stores don't want tabletop mini gamers; he's saying that both types have a built-in preference for other types of gamers.

Regarding the edited out bit: I didn't see it was edited out when I hit the quote button. It was still there as I was typing my reply. I wasn't playing gotcha after you edited.

Regarding the reply to beatty from easternking: He is talking about asmodee's stance and who they are catering to. If the lgs's make their money by magic games and not miniature games as beatty argued, then what's the value in doing what asmodee is doing? They aren't really helping the lgs if the lgs doesn't really make it's money (most of it) from miniature gaming sales but rather from magic sales. Hardly an attack on beatty.