[...] Math is, fundamentally, everything this game is. If you want to ignore the maths in X-Wing, you're left with some nice miniatures to show off on your shelf - nothing else.

So based on this would you still say Star Wars: X-Wing as an easy simple game? The math and the 17 page FAQ, which doesn't include the docking rules and such.

MJ's mathwing is not the be all end all as he has stated; it is a way to predict which ships end up dominating the competitive scene

even a lesser jouster, such as a TLT, can end up as a killer card if you take its jousting value into account with its other perks (namely, having a TLT)

by contrast, the Defender was panned by MJ because it had a jousting value on par with named PWTs, only it didn't have a turret. It just had a white 4k

and then Biophysical went all maverick on us, but that's beside the point

MJ's mathwing is, for sure, an indication of where the game is at. But if you consistently take the best available move in every situation, you will very likely end up winning - if you took the math and environment into account when building your squad.

[...] Math is, fundamentally, everything this game is. If you want to ignore the maths in X-Wing, you're left with some nice miniatures to show off on your shelf - nothing else.

So based on this would you still say Star Wars: X-Wing as an easy simple game? The math and the 17 page FAQ, which doesn't include the docking rules and such.

It can be simple, if you are not playing competitively. But if you are in for the long haul (taking into account the pre and post match actions), it can be pretty complex

MJ's mathwing is not the be all end all as he has stated; it is a way to predict which ships end up dominating the competitive scene

even a lesser jouster, such as a TLT, can end up as a killer card if you take its jousting value into account with its other perks (namely, having a TLT)

by contrast, the Defender was panned by MJ because it had a jousting value on par with named PWTs, only it didn't have a turret. It just had a white 4k

and then Biophysical went all maverick on us, but that's beside the point

MJ's mathwing is, for sure, an indication of where the game is at. But if you consistently take the best available move in every situation, you will very likely end up winning - if you took the math and environment into account when building your squad.

oh for sure

the more efficient ships are simply the easiest to do well with, due to the fact that the dice are on your side (note: not luck, just the fact that you're more efficient than the enemy...and probably more maneuverable with higher ps )

Palp aces could certainly lose to 4X (such as 3 rookies with r2 integrated + bb-8 PTL integrated Wedge), it's just an uphill battle for 4X because they bring no meaningful advantage over Palp aces except for an additional body. In exchange for that body, they have less modifiers, are less maneuverable and have a lower PS.

you scout out the environment, though, and you can end up taking Store Champs with Deathrain

efficiency and ace-wing don't mean **** to conners! (though VI Vader helped, so maybe I'm a hypocrite)

The more I read this thread, the more I'm convinced that the PS system is borked, particularly when it comes to super arc dodgers.

Yes. In a strong X-wing 2.0, PS either wouldn't exist (Armada-style pick a ship and it moves) or it would be deliberately priced on a nonlinear scale.

How do Autothrusters help Fel when he's flying "straight into enemy guns"?

Second, do you recognize that killing Soontir and killing Poe + R2-D2 are almost completely different tasks? The problem with Soontir is that you need a huge spike to get through his stack of tokens. The problem with killing Poe is that he gets +1 health every turn, so you have to get very consistent damage and sustain it over multiple turns.

This is what I meant upthread: it's not useful to treat Agility and hit points separately, unless you can demonstrate that a particular upgrade has a differential effect on one of the inputs. And there are very few offensive upgrades that really do that. TLT is the most prominent, but curiously Theorist ignored it almost entirely as a component of the current metagame.

Which cards? Theorist doesn't say, and neither do you.

Autothrusters help at R3----the ideal range for soontir to be in range of a bunch of guns

Sure, but edging into Range 3 for some of your opponent's ships (and remaining outside Range 3 for others) doesn't sound like flying into the teeth of the enemy. You still can't afford to just rush your opponent's formation with a PS9 tank, regardless of its support.

Killing Soontir and Regen Poe is not that different. For example, 3 TIE fighters with 2 attack dice shooting at either Soontir or Poe: Soontir's tokens stop the damage, poe's ability stops some, regen droid takes care of any that gets through. Now if those same 3 TIEs have crack shot, well now they might just burst enough damage through to kill either. Another example: FCS HLC on IG88 or an FCS phantom---again bursty enough that it can overcome both of their defenses. I can't think of any specific card or combo of abilities that is good at killing one but not the other EXCEPT for non-attack dice stuff (like bombs/mines, vader crew, feedback array, etc)

A sufficiently large damage spike will kill or cripple both of them, but that's because a sufficiently large damage spike will kill anything. But with Fel, the damage spike is the only way to do it unless you can stress him out or cut through his stack of tokens. With Poe, three Academy Pilots are almost an auto-win, but three Tempest Squadron Pilots with Accuracy Correctors will cause him quite a bit of difficulty.

I'd also like to point out that we aren't talking about offensive tech at all here. Fel has excellent defensive tech, as does Poe + regen. To the degree that there is an arms race, it started with arc-dodging and defense. Arguably, having fought PS10 Poe to a standstill a number of times, defense is still winning at the moment.

Which cards? I should think its obvious, but anything that lets you get better damage. There's so many, I'll just list a few: crack shot, predator, K4 droid (or anything that allows TL + focus), pilot abilities that improve chances of landing damage such as: IG88B, chiraneau, wedge (been around forever but still), etc, etc.

This is important, so stay with me here. Crack Shot and Wedge are drastically different from Predator and K4. The latter only affects the quality of my attack roll, which is a flat effect on durability. Extra rerolls don't help you spike damage through Agility and tokens.

That's in contrast to things like Crack Shot, Wedge's pilot ability, Autoblaster Turret, 4-LOM crew, etc. which quite obviously do hit high-Agility ships harder. But there really aren't very many of those in the game in comparison to more vanilla boosts, and some of the ones that are in the game (like Wedge) still aren't used very often.

And then we have a third category of multiple attacks. Gunner, TLT, IG-88B, Cluster Missiles, and similar effects also have a differential effect on high-Agility ships, because they give you multiple chances for your green dice to go cold. But it's an indirect effect, and it's not as strong as effects that directly ignore tokens or dice results,

Again, one of the enormous problems with Theorist's article is that he doesn't bother distinguishing between these types of upgrades.

So if I'm reading this right Vorpal Sword disagrees; MajorJuggler says he's "more right than he knows".

No. We're focusing on different things, and MJ is being more positive than I am--but we're not actually in disagreement.

I think Theorist's thesis is vague and that he doesn't bother providing any evidence for it. To the degree there is something there, it's fairly banal and already well-known, and he's not even restating the support for it let alone providing a novel perspective. This is par for the course when dealing with his writing.

MajorJuggler is pointing out that although Theorist isn't making a good case for it, there is something to the idea that aces have become so efficient that most generic ships can't compete. The major exception at the moment is that ships carrying TLT, especially Y-wings, are even more efficient than some aces. The other generics we see tend to be found in blocking, control, or support roles. (That, of course, is the banal point I just mentioned.)

Is the game getting uber complicated requiring multiple future expansions to balance, buff, realign most of the 2 Attack Ships?

I am now firmly of the mind that efforts to balance, buff, and realign ships at this point could be more usefully aimed at rebooting the game. But I don't expect that it will happen any time soon, and I don't think the game is nonfunctional as it stands. In fact, there are some important metrics by which the game is as healthy as it has ever been. I'm reminded that Hothie just won a store championship with a strictly Wave 1 swarm.

MJ's mathwing is not the be all end all as he has stated; it is a way to predict which ships end up dominating the competitive scene

even a lesser jouster, such as a TLT, can end up as a killer card if you take its jousting value into account with its other perks (namely, having a TLT)

by contrast, the Defender was panned by MJ because it had a jousting value on par with named PWTs, only it didn't have a turret. It just had a white 4k

and then Biophysical went all maverick on us, but that's beside the point

MJ's mathwing is, for sure, an indication of where the game is at. But if you consistently take the best available move in every situation, you will very likely end up winning - if you took the math and environment into account when building your squad.

oh for sure

the more efficient ships are simply the easiest to do well with, due to the fact that the dice are on your side (note: not luck, just the fact that you're more efficient than the enemy...and probably more maneuverable with higher ps )

Palp aces could certainly lose to 4X (such as 3 rookies with r2 integrated + bb-8 PTL integrated Wedge), it's just an uphill battle for 4X because they bring no meaningful advantage over Palp aces except for an additional body. In exchange for that body, they have less modifiers, are less maneuverable and have a lower PS.

you scout out the environment, though, and you can end up taking Store Champs with Deathrain

efficiency and ace-wing don't mean **** to conners! (though VI Vader helped, so maybe I'm a hypocrite)

The luck factor, although heavily mitigated, is there to kind of shout out "OOOHH NO YOU WON'T, NOT TODAY"

I'm really happy that this discussion hasn't derailed, and everyone is contributing constructively and in a polite manner to it.

Killing Soontir and Regen Poe is not that different. For example, 3 TIE fighters with 2 attack dice shooting at either Soontir or Poe: Soontir's tokens stop the damage, poe's ability stops some, regen droid takes care of any that gets through. Now if those same 3 TIEs have crack shot, well now they might just burst enough damage through to kill either. Another example: FCS HLC on IG88 or an FCS phantom---again bursty enough that it can overcome both of their defenses. I can't think of any specific card or combo of abilities that is good at killing one but not the other EXCEPT for non-attack dice stuff (like bombs/mines, vader crew, feedback array, etc)

A sufficiently large damage spike will kill or cripple both of them, but that's because a sufficiently large damage spike will kill anything. But with Fel, the damage spike is the only way to do it unless you can stress him out or cut through his stack of tokens. With Poe, three Academy Pilots are almost an auto-win, but three Tempest Squadron Pilots with Accuracy Correctors will cause him quite a bit of difficulty.

I'd also like to point out that we aren't talking about offensive tech at all here. Fel has excellent defensive tech, as does Poe + regen. To the degree that there is an arms race, it started with arc-dodging and defense. Arguably, having fought PS10 Poe to a standstill a number of times, defense is still winning at the moment.

the following is utterly anecdotally and not really indicative of any coming competitive changes

but if it helps, casual practice games with g-chips redlines have seen Poe get routinely obliterated (cluster missiles)

Wave 8 at least carries the promise of offensive buffs, if only through ordnance and the very faint glimmer of conner net relevance via Sabine. Even the Inquisitor, imo, is far more offensive than Soontir

otherwise agree, defense is king. Defense is what makes certain ships so reliable, and reliability will reliably win games over the X rounds needed to advance in a tournament

unreliable stuff, like ordnance or agility, is just a bad throw away from getting buried

not that I believe g-chips will make Redline ultra viable (the game's still on your shoulders with the whole low PS target-lock thing + no defenses, even if the dice got a whole lot more reliable), but something like triple scouts shows a lot of promise

imo, that's how you should "joust" in this game. Low PS and challenging to get arcs on, but when you finally get those arc then the enemy ace should start to sweat just a little

Most of the first wave pilots are terrible because the game prices PS at 2 points per PS.

For example?

MJ's mathwing is not the be all end all as he has stated; it is a way to predict which ships end up dominating the competitive scene

even a lesser jouster, such as a TLT, can end up as a killer card if you take its jousting value into account with its other perks (namely, having a TLT)

by contrast, the Defender was panned by MJ because it had a jousting value on par with named PWTs, only it didn't have a turret. It just had a white 4k

and then Biophysical went all maverick on us, but that's beside the point

MJ's mathwing is, for sure, an indication of where the game is at. But if you consistently take the best available move in every situation, you will very likely end up winning - if you took the math and environment into account when building your squad.

I think there's an important distinction between understanding the broader math trends in the game and worrying about a few percentage points difference in efficiency between ships. I think (without a tremendous amount of data, to be honest) that someone would be a stronger player putting 25% of their energy into understanding the mathematical interactions of ships and 75% of their energy into understanding how ships fly to get advantageous positions than if they reversed those percentages.

The math IS important, but I think it's the simpler math that is actually much more useful. I have only moderate interest in the overall jousting values, because I don't put a ship on the board and joust it in a general scenario against a weighted average all the other ships in the game. I'm really interested in how a ship exchanges damage against specific other ships in specific board states, and that's relatively easy math to do. If you understand this more basic level math, it shows you where you need to put your ship in order to maximize its efficiency against your specific opposing ship in a game, but a very strong grasp of maneuvering is what lets you put your ship in that position.

The bad/"bad" ships that are listed are bad/"bad" because they cannot damage things like Poe or Soontir, not because 2 agility and 2 hull/2 shields is a little better than 3 agility and 3 hull in a hyper damage environment. That's a minor issue. Hyper damage is just a symptom of having to deal with Poe/Soontir/other Acewings.

The more I read this thread, the more I'm convinced that the PS system is borked, particularly when it comes to super arc dodgers. Everything has been developed just to counter act them, either by massive damage or negating their ps advantage. Not to say the game is broken, but its a trend that will continue until either corrected or is much worse.

I have pondered though a system where PS wasn't absolute. Consider this, is it right that fel can outfly 8 AP's at ps1? Sure, maybe? Makes some sense, because he's a really good pilot and they're really bad. Their PS sums up to 8, and his is still 9. But what about the top 6 named Tie Fighters, howlrunner through youngster? Not talking about abilities here, but mostly PS. Should fel be able to outfly this squad at a total of 40 PS as easy as he does the ap's? I think in this case, fel would actually have an easier time against the 6 aces than the 8 ap's.

How to fix that? not a clue.... at least nothing solid.

Making boost and barrel roll red has been suggested before. I think that's a bit extreme and hurts things like Alpha and Avenger Squadrons way too much.

One could simply make /bank/ boost red and that would go a long way. Bank barrel roll and decloak are tied to one pilot, why everything with boost innately gets to perform freebie 1 banks is beyond me.

Because the PS system works fine when it's just a PS 8 B-Wing vs. a PS 2 B-Wing. It's when boost and barrel roll get involved that it breaks PS and makes it way too important.

mtrein, on 18 Mar 2016 - 5:56 PM, said:

I'm really happy that this discussion hasn't derailed, and everyone is contributing constructively and in a polite manner to it.

Actually, it already derailed a while ago. The original post (and article) was about how agility is diminishing. Most of the latest comments are about offensive buffs and how 'defense is king'

mtrein, on 18 Mar 2016 - 5:56 PM, said:

I'm really happy that this discussion hasn't derailed, and everyone is contributing constructively and in a polite manner to it.

Actually, it already derailed a while ago. The original post (and article) was about how agility is diminishing. Most of the latest comments are about offensive buffs and how 'defense is king'

On the contrary, I think it's evolved to better understand something we all know is true, even if we can't directly figure out why.

Most of the first wave pilots are terrible because the game prices PS at 2 points per PS.

For example?

Huh, that line is really off. Should have been more past tense there: "were" and "priced" and should have said 1 point per PS. My apologies; crossed thoughts with the value of PS on VI.

In any case, my point was that the early pilots tend to cost more over the base ship than we currently see. There are occasional deviations from this, but usually due to an absurdly strong ability (generally anything that generates extra attacks/tokens/dice). We've seen a pretty steady drop in the cost of PS since Wave 4. (Peaked in Wave 3 at an average of +8.5 with it dropping to +6.3 in Wave 8).

What it comes down to though is that PS's value is entirely relative to the most problematic ship in the game. Initially, that problem was PS1, meaning anything was roughly equally better than the biggest meta problem. It eventually got countered enough to drift up to PS3, but most ships of the era were still paying a lot of points for a largely useless 8 or 9. Whisper shortcutted the entire process by instantly making anything 9 or less worthless and created the environment you see today.

And its worth pointing out, its defensive tech that creates the problem. Soontir is the problem now, but before that it was C3PO and before that it was AGI 4 with Focus. In many ways Green dice create the same problem PWTs do. They make positioning largely useless because when they work, they work regardless of how well you maneuvered.

mtrein, on 18 Mar 2016 - 5:56 PM, said:

I'm really happy that this discussion hasn't derailed, and everyone is contributing constructively and in a polite manner to it.

Actually, it already derailed a while ago. The original post (and article) was about how agility is diminishing. Most of the latest comments are about offensive buffs and how 'defense is king'

On the contrary, I think it's evolved to better understand something we all know is true, even if we can't directly figure out why.

I'm reasonably sure this is one of the best conversations about a game I've seen on a public forum on the internet. I don't want to jynx it, but I've been impressed with pretty much the whole thing.

So the thesis of the discussion is now:

High Pilot Skill + positional modifying actions (Decloak, Barrel Roll, Boost) are the central problem with the game's balance, as they completely invalidate the middle Pilot Skills - either it's 9+ or it doesn't matter - especially when combined with multiple Action economy and super defensive tech (Autothrusters, regen).

The supporting arguments are pointed towards three examples: VI Whisper, Soontir Fel, and VI Poe Dameron.

Solid support is the rise of VI Vader just to counter these pilots via superior positioning (as it's the only way TO counter those pilots!) and how VI Han Solo, VI Wedge, and VI Talonbane Cobra fail to have the same effect as they have minimal (or NO) repositioning, no action economy, and/or still fail to ignore Autothrusters.

Counterarguments?

I did like the idea I saw earlier about splitting Pilot Skills into broad tiers instead of highly specific numbers, but I think that it should be Rookie, Experienced, Veteran, Ace - four tiers gives a better distinction between the "good" pilots like Redline and Guri (Veteran), the named but above average (Colzet, Tarn Mison), and the super-skilled pilots like Tycho and Fel. Perhaps... I'm gonna start a second topic about this, it's a bit too off-topic.

The supporting arguments are pointed towards three examples: VI Whisper, Soontir Fel, and VI Poe Dameron.

Solid support is the rise of VI Vader just to counter these pilots via superior positioning (as it's the only way TO counter those pilots!)

well, not the ONLYway

there's a reason Heaver sang the Stress Y's praises

of course, he complimented it with his own PS > 9 ace (Poe) so make of that what you will

I also brought VI Vader to compliment deathrain against a crush of palp aces, but I'm no heaver

The supporting arguments are pointed towards three examples: VI Whisper, Soontir Fel, and VI Poe Dameron.

Solid support is the rise of VI Vader just to counter these pilots via superior positioning (as it's the only way TO counter those pilots!)

well, not the ONLYway

there's a reason Heaver sang the Stress Y's praises

of course, he complimented it with his own PS > 9 ace (Poe) so make of that what you will

I also brought VI Vader to compliment deathrain against a crush of palp aces, but I'm no heaver

There's also blocking, which makes me sad because I'm usually the first one to bring it up when discussing Fel, and I feel like it should be everybody's first tool in their Fel-countering kit. I guess I'll blame that stretch of two-ship lists as the culprit. I have regularly defeated Fel with squads that have no dedicated ace counter other than having bodies that can get in the way. Poe goes down to good old-fashioned firepower. Whisper, I haven't played against since the nerf (in a game where I wasn't on both sides).

[...]

MajorJuggler is pointing out that although Theorist isn't making a good case for it, there is something to the idea that aces have become so efficient that most generic ships can't compete. The major exception at the moment is that ships carrying TLT, especially Y-wings, are even more efficient than some aces. The other generics we see tend to be found in blocking, control, or support roles. (That, of course, is the banal point I just mentioned.)

[...]

Is the game getting uber complicated requiring multiple future expansions to balance, buff, realign most of the 2 Attack Ships?

I am now firmly of the mind that efforts to balance, buff, and realign ships at this point could be more usefully aimed at rebooting the game. But I don't expect that it will happen any time soon, and I don't think the game is nonfunctional as it stands. In fact, there are some important metrics by which the game is as healthy as it has ever been. I'm reminded that Hothie just won a store championship with a strictly Wave 1 swarm.

Well maybe for my tastes that might be fine. I know that in a perfect world and better game all things balance well. But I have long advocated for a system where everything is not measured against a fighter. The right tool for the right job. Bomber who's points show how efficient they are as bombers not fighters. But that is not the game that we have and we still seek this balance, now (again) between aces and generics. The game is primarily a 100 point death match after all.

As for a reboot. Well I've suggested and hoped for that. Keep your models and buy the new rules, pilot and upgrade cards. But still we are only human and even this subject to errors and mistakes. I was hoping to find the range between math and reality where the individual player matter more than the efficiency. Aim for a range rather than a fraction of a percent difference. Simply say that, for example only, if this and that pilot are within a 10% range of each other they are equal and the players ability will make up any perceived disadvantage.

But we don't look for that. The last time I suggested it I was informed twice by two different people (wrongly I might add) that high level players are absolutely perfect and never make mistakes so even a fraction of a percent in efficiency wins or looses the game. We know this is foolish thinking but yet. Here we are.

a very effective way of countering fel is blocking and dice en masse

i played on vassal with someone flying

Contracted scout with painbot int agent feedback APL Intimidation

x2 Banana pirates with Feedback

and x3 banana pirates naked, needless to say once the scout knew where fel was headed he was dead, no ifs ands or buts.

The supporting arguments are pointed towards three examples: VI Whisper, Soontir Fel, and VI Poe Dameron.

Solid support is the rise of VI Vader just to counter these pilots via superior positioning (as it's the only way TO counter those pilots!)

well, not the ONLYway

there's a reason Heaver sang the Stress Y's praises

of course, he complimented it with his own PS > 9 ace (Poe) so make of that what you will

I also brought VI Vader to compliment deathrain against a crush of palp aces, but I'm no heaver

There's also blocking, which makes me sad because I'm usually the first one to bring it up when discussing Fel, and I feel like it should be everybody's first tool in their Fel-countering kit. I guess I'll blame that stretch of two-ship lists as the culprit. I have regularly defeated Fel with squads that have no dedicated ace counter other than having bodies that can get in the way. Poe goes down to good old-fashioned firepower. Whisper, I haven't played against since the nerf (in a game where I wasn't on both sides).

yes, blocking is a lost art

gotta admit, though, it's much easier to just out PS the bastard (or stress Y...or conners)

Just put Palob with a TLT and Bossk. Soontir's tokens are limited, but with each missed shot, Palob recovers his tokens to use on the next attack. Put a few other ships between them (blockers, as others have suggested) and presto, Soontir is not a problem.

The supporting arguments are pointed towards three examples: VI Whisper, Soontir Fel, and VI Poe Dameron.

Solid support is the rise of VI Vader just to counter these pilots via superior positioning (as it's the only way TO counter those pilots!)

well, not the ONLYway

there's a reason Heaver sang the Stress Y's praises

of course, he complimented it with his own PS > 9 ace (Poe) so make of that what you will

I also brought VI Vader to compliment deathrain against a crush of palp aces, but I'm no heaver

There's also blocking, which makes me sad because I'm usually the first one to bring it up when discussing Fel, and I feel like it should be everybody's first tool in their Fel-countering kit. I guess I'll blame that stretch of two-ship lists as the culprit. I have regularly defeated Fel with squads that have no dedicated ace counter other than having bodies that can get in the way. Poe goes down to good old-fashioned firepower. Whisper, I haven't played against since the nerf (in a game where I wasn't on both sides).

yes, blocking is a lost art

gotta admit, though, it's much easier to just out PS the bastard (or stress Y...or conners)

or a stress y with conners

just conners before you start stressing...

thought about it; it's kinda redundant

you need to kill the fools you net, as fun as it is to cripple them and watch them hobble about uselessly, like a cat would with its food

which is why I brought OL and Vader specifically. Vader's PS 11, but he also hits harder/more reliably than anything else I could think of at that point range

which is a bit sad if you think about it

The supporting arguments are pointed towards three examples: VI Whisper, Soontir Fel, and VI Poe Dameron.

Solid support is the rise of VI Vader just to counter these pilots via superior positioning (as it's the only way TO counter those pilots!)

well, not the ONLYway

there's a reason Heaver sang the Stress Y's praises

of course, he complimented it with his own PS > 9 ace (Poe) so make of that what you will

I also brought VI Vader to compliment deathrain against a crush of palp aces, but I'm no heaver

There's also blocking, which makes me sad because I'm usually the first one to bring it up when discussing Fel, and I feel like it should be everybody's first tool in their Fel-countering kit. I guess I'll blame that stretch of two-ship lists as the culprit. I have regularly defeated Fel with squads that have no dedicated ace counter other than having bodies that can get in the way. Poe goes down to good old-fashioned firepower. Whisper, I haven't played against since the nerf (in a game where I wasn't on both sides).

There's a reason I'd prefer to have 4-ship lists over 3 or 2 ships, even if that extra ship is just an Academy Pilot or Wampa - blockety blockety! Last time I killed Soontir not with Vader, but with blocking just as you did. Blocked him with Zeta Leader, the best part was it was with a K-Turn so ZL still got a shot off at a fleeing RAC...

But...

It still reinforces the point that there's only four Pilot Skills that matter right now: 9, 10, 11, or none of them. HOPEFULLY with the triple Jumpmaster list and other Alpha Strike lists it'll matter more because you'll need firepower to kill them before they get to launch, but still... that just makes it six Pilot Skills that matter: 3, 4, 9, 10, 11, or none.