The error here, I think is - why are you messing about with planetary scale. Two city blocks (give or take) is still pretty on top of each other and with city driving they wont be whipping along the unfathomable speeds of a starfighter.

Remember the KISS rule - and don't confuse matters. Leave it in the one, ignore the other and call it a day.

It isn't terribly unrealistic (well... STAR WARS unrealistic) that, to people on foot, vehicles move so far as to effectively disappear as soon as they're moving. It happens in RotJ. Once those speeder bikes start moving, they're just gone.

Then we get to feel the abstract nature of ranges when, after some super high speed chase through the forest that had to end up at extreme range from the stationary rebel team, Luke walks back in a matter of minutes.

The ranges are abstract. The numbers provided are a crutch for those times when they matter. Those times should be few and far between. In my experience, the numbers might come up at the start of a scene but, after that, distances are usually spoken in range bands.

Numbers just mess things up in Star Wars, in general! If you use the narrative for how long it takes to navigate from a planet to its moons and use our own planet's and moon's distances to calculate the speed, the Millennium Falcon is moving so fast that, when Han says, "That'll do nicely." as he looks out at the not-cave, he'd be looking at it in Los Angeles while flying low over New York. And don't get me started on 12 parsecs!

Don't throw your rulebook away. Just figure out how to prioritize what's in there so that you're not feeling like you need to reconcile numbers vs. story... and when the two seem to clash, story should win with a nod and wink at the numbers. It was, after all, a 2m wide target shaft rather than a, "super teensy weensy" target shaft even if both descriptions would have the same game effect.

This is why we all love Pretty Haley... I always enjoy her posts and they are always very insightful...*ducks*

Ok, to talk about Range Bands a little bit more. Rgrove0172 and I have been having a private conversation about it, and I made this chart for him that I wanted to share. I did a little extrapolation from the books, but I think I came up with a pretty good chart here to look at Range bands and help explain them to people. the book does use terms like "few", "several" lot, and I looked up the meaning and had to guess and some of the numbers. What I am presenting is an idea, not a final say or what has to be. just an IDEA of what CAN BE, and a better to show the distances of range. I do not and will not engage in arguments over what constitutes a "few" or "several". Please do not disrespect me that way. I do understand the FFG bands are somewhat fluid to an extent and my numbers I am putting on them do not mean these are concrete, but just a rough idea. Some people seem to think that range bands can and do change sizes, like from 100 meters one round to 500 meters the next. this is not true either. So, I'm just trying to help a friend out, and any others out there that might be having trouble with the "nebulous" Range Bands. If any one has any thoughtful critique, i would love to here it, but please nothing about "several" "few" or that my numbers are not concrete. I know they are not. Thanks for reading my bad guy monologue! Now, on with the show!

.

We have the five Personal Scale bands. For use with people and smaller vehicles

And we have the Planetary range Bands.For use with vehicles and Starships. (these can be weird)

Personal

Engaged:With in to more than a meter

Short: up to Several Meters : (Several meaning more than two but not many.) call it 3

Medium: Several dozen meters: call it 3

Long: Further than a few dozen meters (Few can mean more than three or more than but many) call it 6

Extreme: No example given. High tech sniper rifle range.

Engaged 1 meters

Short: 1.1 - 3 Meters

Medium: 3.1 - 36 Meters

Long: 36.1- 72 meters

Extreme about 72+ - 1000 meters, 1 Km. Sniper range.

Planetary Scale range Bands

Here we have 5 bands but also we have Surface/Atmosphere and Space distances to adjust for.

Close Range: Slightly further than Extreme in Personal Scale. A few dozen meters up to several Km.

Short Range: Several dozen Km (several =3)

Medium Range: Surface/Atmo: 50 Km Space: few hundred Km

Long Range: Surface/Atmo: 200 Km Space: Several Thousand Km

Extreme: Surface/Atmo: Far edges of a vehicles scanner, beyond any weapon range. Space: beyond the range of almost all weapon ranges.

Close: 36 meters - 3,000 Meters (3 Km)

Short Range: 36 Km

Medium: Surface: 50 Km Space: 200 Km

Long: Surface: 200 Km Space: 3000 Km

Extreme: There is nothing out there Sir!

I would adjust some of these. As i can be lethal in less than 3 seconds with a knife at 21 feet or so. So i would make engaged about that far. But then I have done a fair bit of actual sword fighting and you quickly learn being engaged with sords or knives is covers a much bigger area than most people think.

@ Brad. I didn't do anything at all. I didn't just make this up. This information came directly from the book. So the information in my "chart" the top half is directly word for word from the book. Several dozen meters etc. I didn't just make that up. The second half of my chart, I did put the numbers in just to help show some people. Not to be a donkey here, but go back read the range band sections, and you will see exactly the same wording in my Cambell's Soup Condensed form version. I don't have a factor of X10 or anything, that is FFG. Also they use therms several dozen meters. This is where that nebulous feeling comes in. What exactly is several dozen? This is FFG wording, not mine, Several literally means more than two, but not many. Well how the effing man is many? A large number of! What about a few? More than 3. Yes the numbers I plugged can work if you want them, or they don't have too. I even stated that in my post. That is was just one idea to represent this and nothing concrete.

Now. Please don't take this as being rude, impolite, snarky, argumentative, a D-bag, or anything else. This is sincerely not meant that way, but a small amount of nerd rage here.

Please stop saying that Rounds can be up to a minute long.

Yes, they can be. But It means nothing to do with anything, and has no bearing here. What does have bearing is if you are in Narrative game play (NGP) or Structred Gameplay(SGP). NGP can be, according FFG ECRB three minutes, three hours, three days. SGP is broken down into rounds which is then broken down into turns.

Here is a great quote from the Book.

ECRB P 232:

"This starship maneuver reflects the simple act of moving the ship or vehicle closer or further away from something at its current speed. The number of starship maneuvers required for a ship or vehicle to move through a given number of range bands is dependent on its speed. It is important to remember that range is based on the moving ship's perspective, and is not a measure of actual physical distance."

I'm on my iPad, so pulling quotes don't work well. But you said something to the effect of: "So, that’s one set of range bands, based on what blaster weapons and modern projectile weapons can do. Now, we need to have the same sort of discussion regarding how fast someone can run. Guess what? You’ll come up with different numbers."

That is not how Range Bands work at all. Personal Short range is always going to be up to several meters according to RAW. It is not going to magically change to three football fields because you have a gun now. That is not how the game works. So here we go one more time. These are the words of the book, not my words. You can agree or disagree, you can like it or not, but this is the FFG Range Band System:

Personal

Engaged:With in to more than a meter

Short: up to Several Meters

Medium: Several dozen meters

Long: Further than a few dozen meters

Extreme: No example given, other than a high tech sniper rifle.

Planetary Scale range Bands

Here we have 5 bands but also we have Surface and Atmosphere and Space distances to adjust for.

Close Range: Slightly further than Extreme in Personal Scale. A few dozen meters up to several Km.

Short Range: Several dozen Km

Medium Range: Surface/Atmo: 50 Km Space: few hunddred Km

Long Range: Surface/Atmo: 200 Km Space: Several Thousand Km

Extreme: Surface/Atmo: Far edges of a vehicles scanner, beyond any weapon range. Space: beyond the range of almost all weapon ranges.

So in conclusion. I don't think my head hurts from this at all. I don't feel I made any fundmental errors, logical or otherwise in my interpretation and use of range bands. I understand what the words "Many, Several, Few" mean and understand the intent the writers had for using them. So the Long Range Band in one encounter could be 6 dozen Km, and in another encounter it then be 3 dozen Km because my vehicle or some other fundemental story element changed. (Which I think is one thing that RGrove hates) I don't use grid maps or miniatures in my games or rulers, and you are missing my intent here. I was just trying to help Rgrove better understand this by throwing in some "non-set variable" numbers. I don't think he believes me when I tell him I don't use numbers in my games! Which I rarely do. I don't say the baddie is 25 meters away. Maybe, if it is good for the minds eye, but mechanically, it has little to no bearing on the game. What is important to know is if he can shoot at me, or if I can shoot at him. So Brad, not trying be a Summers Eve. I think you misunderstood me here and my intent. I tried to make myself clear in my post, which I guess I didn't. By using the terms given to us from FFG, few, many, several, I picked some numbers and plugged them in to help us see the distances, but I understand that these numbers can and will change. I think you missed the mark here and fail to understand the range bands correctly based on this.:"So, that’s one set of range bands, based on what blaster weapons and modern projectile weapons can do. Now, we need to have the same sort of discussion regarding how fast someone can run. Guess what? You’ll come up with different numbers.Now, we need to go through a sequence of the same sort of discussion regarding range bands, based on a variety of other factors. And you’ll get different answers every time.Then you need to rinse and repeat that whole process for each and every one of these categories, based on what happens in the movies, so that you can get that authentic Star Wars feel."

Short range is is always going to be several meters. Medium several dozen. Long, further than a few dozen. That is RAW from the ECRB.

*snip*

As soon as the PCs turn and run you should have converted to a Chase scene.

*snip*

As soon as the PCs turn and run you should have converted to a Chase scene.

It wouldn't have mattered. The chase rules simply regulate how the participants move from one band to another in relation to one another. It wouldn't change the inconsistentcies. One turn the guy darts ahead 1 km, the next he is ahead 10km, and in the time it took the other guy to shoot once. Same weirdness applies.

Really wish this made sense. Any examples of play anybody?

GM: Ok, you dart around the corner and see your speeder right where you left it, despite the streets filling with panicked civilians reacting to the smoke and fire you just came from.

Players: Ok, we hop in. Bregs will drive. Any sign of those security agents on our trail?

GM: Make a perception check.

Players roll perception check and fail.

GM: You do not see the agents on your tail, the crowd is too thick to tell if they are still on your tail or if you lost them.

Players: We take off slow, towards the spaceport, don't want to run anybody over. Keep it at speed 1 and hope the streets don't clog completely.

GM: The speeder makes its way through the streets, however the crowds of people trying to get away are making it hard for the speeder to navigate the streets. (GM knows backup has been called)

Players: We are keeping our eyes pealed for those blue uniformed guys. Keeping blasters at hand but down inside the vehicle, no sense drawing attention.

GM: Okay, you’re trying to be inconspicuous, can all players give me either a stealth check or a cool check.

All players roll a check, all fail, one rolls a despair.

GM: You travel for only a couple minutes, managing only a couple of blocks when a security van pulls out into an intersection in front of you. Its one of the big ones, with the turret. Its lights are flashing and a loudspeaker starts blaring “You there in the speeder, power down your repulsors and take your hands off the controls!”

Players: Screw that, Bregs - get us out of here! We put the thing in reverse and move back toward the nearest intersection behind us. Surely this guy wont open fire with civilians all over the street?

GM: You’re dealing with a tyrannical government that is very trigger happy, thankfully the civilians know this and are ducking out of the streets as fast as they can. You guys are trying to escape so we are now entering a chase scenario, you are in vehicles but for the purposes of this we will use personal scale so you can exchange fire with the vehicle occupants. Roll for initiative.

Players: Ok, heres our initiative rolls.

GM: Alright, you go first. The Van is at Medium range. Your facing it, the crowds is thinning around you.

Players: Ok, Bregs will back us up, the rest of us will squeeze off some shots toward the vehicle, try to shake them up a bit.

GM: Your shots cannot effect the vehicle due to its armor, but you can effect subsystems or the occupants for two setback die on your checks. Bregs, backing up is going to take time, so that’s two maneuvers of fly/drive, and a piloting check to avoid obstacles.

Player: Heck with that, if there is room he's gonna whip this thing around and go. That thing is going to open fire on us any second.

Player2: No, it cant. We are Medium range, those are light blaster cannon remember? Short range.

GM: Yes it’s a light blaster, therefore it uses personal scale damage, but planetary ranges, like the speeder bikes do,

Player: Oh yeah, that's right, so are we in range then?

GM: Yes you are in range of their vehicle weapon, but using it is unnecessary due to where you at, now if you get beyond their hand blasters range, they probably will open up with that thing, for now the people inside the vehicle are firing, thus why we are at personal scale.

KISS, find a reason for a vehicle to not use its planetary scale vehicle, unless you do want to cause the party to crash their vehicle, in this instance I have the officers firing at the speeder. Also makes the chase more interesting as I can have officers jump on board their speeder if I wish. I would do the entire thing, but I need to head to work, laters!

GM: Ok, you dart around the corner and see your speeder right where you left it, despite the streets filling with panicked civilians reacting to the smoke and fire you just came from.

Players: Ok, we hop in. Bregs will drive. Any sign of those security agents on our trail?

GM: Make a perception check.

Players roll perception check and fail.

GM: You do not see the agents on your tail, the crowd is too thick to tell if they are still on your tail or if you lost them.

Players: We take off slow, towards the spaceport, don't want to run anybody over. Keep it at speed 1 and hope the streets don't clog completely.

GM: The speeder makes its way through the streets, however the crowds of people trying to get away are making it hard for the speeder to navigate the streets. (GM knows backup has been called)

Players: We are keeping our eyes pealed for those blue uniformed guys. Keeping blasters at hand but down inside the vehicle, no sense drawing attention.

GM: Okay, you’re trying to be inconspicuous, can all players give me either a stealth check or a cool check.

All players roll a check, all fail, one rolls a despair.

GM: You travel for only a couple minutes, managing only a couple of blocks when a security van pulls out into an intersection in front of you. Its one of the big ones, with the turret. Its lights are flashing and a loudspeaker starts blaring “You there in the speeder, power down your repulsors and take your hands off the controls!”

Players: Screw that, Bregs - get us out of here! We put the thing in reverse and move back toward the nearest intersection behind us. Surely this guy wont open fire with civilians all over the street?

GM: You’re dealing with a tyrannical government that is very trigger happy, thankfully the civilians know this and are ducking out of the streets as fast as they can. You guys are trying to escape so we are now entering a chase scenario, you are in vehicles but for the purposes of this we will use personal scale so you can exchange fire with the vehicle occupants. Roll for initiative.

Players: Ok, heres our initiative rolls.

GM: Alright, you go first. The Van is at Medium range. Your facing it, the crowds is thinning around you.

Players: Ok, Bregs will back us up, the rest of us will squeeze off some shots toward the vehicle, try to shake them up a bit.

GM: Your shots cannot effect the vehicle due to its armor, but you can effect subsystems or the occupants for two setback die on your checks. Bregs, backing up is going to take time, so that’s two maneuvers of fly/drive, and a piloting check to avoid obstacles.

Player: Heck with that, if there is room he's gonna whip this thing around and go. That thing is going to open fire on us any second.

Player2: No, it cant. We are Medium range, those are light blaster cannon remember? Short range.

GM: Yes it’s a light blaster, therefore it uses personal scale damage, but planetary ranges, like the speeder bikes do,

Player: Oh yeah, that's right, so are we in range then?

GM: Yes you are in range of their vehicle weapon, but using it is unnecessary due to where you at, now if you get beyond their hand blasters range, they probably will open up with that thing, for now the people inside the vehicle are firing, thus why we are at personal scale.

KISS, find a reason for a vehicle to not use its planetary scale vehicle, unless you do want to cause the party to crash their vehicle, in this instance I have the officers firing at the speeder. Also makes the chase more interesting as I can have officers jump on board their speeder if I wish. I would do the entire thing, but I need to head to work, laters!

Thanks, you didn't quite get to the part where the vehicle movements and such come into play but I appreciate your time.

I do have one comment regarding the security vehicle's weapon, Its a vehicle class Light Laser Cannon as per the Vehicle Weapons chart, not a Light Laser personal weapon mounted on a vehicle. It would do vehicle damage, not personal damage if it hit, x10 to personnel.

I think what threw us off was how some sections of the rules are incredibly detailed and strict. Including rules for typically abstract notions like Obligation and Morality for example. Many of the skills and talents come with their own individual rules, dice interpretations and such that are quite intricate. Then, when you move to something as conventional as movement during combat, things get very freeform and abstract.

Theres a reason for it design wise certainly, and apparently a good one as sales would indicate, but it kind of a departure from the norm. To the typical player that sits down and figures out how to use his character and the rules surrounding him to best advantage, its a BIG shift.

We played a brief session last night and one of the players announced, at the onset of combat, that he wanted to remain back out of typical blaster range in order to keep an eye out for a participant that was expected to appear. The others moved in to engage but he remained at long range. When he was spotted by a cluster of minions, they moved on his position. In just a few rounds they closed to gun range. He was pretty frustrated when he told me he figured he was far enough away to prevent that and it should have taken far longer for them to reach him. (He moved to cover once and fired at them twice) I explained that it was only long personal range and perhaps they weren't that far away, maybe 60-70 meters or so (longer than a few dozen by the book). He baulked saying he thought of it as easily double that. Further than a few dozen meaning 150 or more!

When I told him it didn't matter and that either way they would have reached him in the same 3 rounds he was pretty confused.

We got passed it but that's a good idea of what we have run into. Nothing really major but misunderstandings between the game terms and what we envision in our heads.

I don't know if this helpful or not but this is how I would have handled this situation:

First, I would have asked the player if he wanted to be within range to really be part of the encounter - does he want to just observe what's going on and report it to the group via a comlink or whaterver, does he just want to physically be at the edges of the encounter space, or does he want to be in a position to intervene if a third party shows up (and essentially creating a second encounter 'space' some appropriate distance away).

If the player wanted to be part of the encounter but just at the edges then he can pick Long or Extreme (from the rest of the group). The rules cover how long it takes to cover these range bands, etc, and if a third party shows up and he makes a Perception check or whatever then he can intervene with the third party at Extreme range.

This is not too dissimilar to what you did but the point is to make it clear to the player (who should understand how long it takes in Maneuvers) what he's dealing with in terms of his ability to interact and be interacted with.

If he's frustrated that it took several rounds for minions to close in on his position then he should have picked a position that was functionally not part of the encounter (where he could observe and report but not directly intervene). But it should have been plain to him that this was the decision he was making.

Also, I'm not sure how this would have played out much differently in a more "tactical" game like Saga Edition - he would have had to pick some distance to stay behind which would have resulted in the same sort of scenario - either he's 1000 sqaures back (and effectively not part of the encounter) or he's several rounds to being within range of enemy weaponry.

First off rgrove, there are some really good suggestions here that you'd do well to take to heart. Sometimes the "problem" might lie in the fact that you're using the wrong tool for the job. So don't be too quick to dismiss what people write as "not applicable." You are being given lots and lots of help here from people who've spent lots of time on this particular system, so take advantage of the added perspective. I can understand your frustrations with the way the range bands are defined, but the big problem that I see is that you're trying to get them to do something that they weren't designed to do.

As soon as the PCs turn and run you should have converted to a Chase scene.

It wouldn't have mattered. The chase rules simply regulate how the participants move from one band to another in relation to one another. It wouldn't change the inconsistentcies. One turn the guy darts ahead 1 km, the next he is ahead 10km...

Regarding vehicles "darting ahead" 10km or whatever, remember that turns happen at roughly the same time. Any "weirdness" or "inconsistencies" can be fixed with one simple word from the GM: "Meanwhile..." As in, "Okay, you take off in your landspeeder and gun it. Meanwhile, the hostile party that followed you out the door has taken their own speeder and given chase, and their blasters are filling the air around your speeder with a hail of red bolts."

...and in the time it took the other guy to shoot once.

Nope. If the guy is going to stand and shoot instead of giving chase, the shooting is an action that comprises much more than letting off a single shot. This is a strawman that deserves to be thrown into the fire. Actions deserve lots of narration and denote much effort on the part of the character acting. "Shooting once" doesn't really connote much of an effort, does it? The weirdness here is due, in part, to the fact that you're not narrating the action properly. But if a character decides to shoot and not chase, then it doesn't matter if it's 1km or 10km; the important piece of info here is that his target is now out of range.

It would appear that the biggest problem I will have to overcome is my long time practice of describing the scene, heck describing my entire game actually, in real terms instead of game terms. We tend to avoid terms like 'wound thresholds, range bands, encumbrance limits, and the like unless absolutely necessary and even then as a sort of foot note.

This translation from real world to game terms is kind of problematic where the ranges come in, once you've established a distance. Doing it the other way is far easier, but kind of weird to my mind. Ill give it a try though.

Thanks again everybody.

It's not that one shouldn't use "real world" terms. Rather, use narratively descriptive words rather than technical terms. The range bands are perfect for this, because you can simply say "He's a short distance away from you. It'd be Easy to toss a grenade under his feet." or "He's a long distance from you, out of the effective range of your blaster pistol." Or, "he's extremely far away; he won't even hear you talking unless you shout as loud as you can, and even then you probably won't be heard distinctly." Like you can use the dice to tell your players how difficulty something will be: "This is an Easy task," or "This is a truly Daunting undertaking. Not for the faint of heart or those lacking in skill."

"Short, medium, and long" are relative terms, but that doesn't make them "not real" terms when it comes to distances. This is why we use expressions like "a stone's throw," or "a hop, skip, and a jump," or "a ways down," or "just down the street/around the corner." We also use measurements like "a few car lengths," or "a couple blocks," or "several strides," or "a head taller than me." All real world terms, all descriptive, but also all relative—and yet it's all good, because we got the point across well enough.

When describing the size of a room, if I need to give an accurate depiction of size and in-universe terms will not suffice, I will usually compare it to something in the immediate physical world. Like, "Out of character, this room that your characters are in is about twice the size of the room we're in now, but the ceiling is about 4 times higher."

--

I rarely use numbers, because I use them for mathematical calculations, not visualizing environments. Also, I know that bringing hard numbers into the game can generate fruitless arguments that have nothing to do with the actual scenario.

And after all that, if a player ever complains about inconsistency, I can just say "Thanks for being willing to roll with it for right now, but please remind me that you want to talk about it after the session." Then when we have the conversation, I just lay out that Star Wars is space opera and that numbers and distances are really not that important in the setting. Vehicles move at the speed of plot, there are loud & fiery explosions in space, and the majority of planets in the galaxy have exactly one biosphere. I will also continually remind the players that I am there to give them a good time, and that they should trust me to run a fun game & to not screw them over. I have never had a problem that I could not settle with these sorts of explanations—and because I do, I've never had the need to deal with rules lawyering head-on. You just take it from a different angle, turn it on its head, and carry on.

Please stop saying that Rounds can be up to a minute long.

Yes, they can be. But It means nothing to do with anything, and has no bearing here. What does have bearing is if you are in Narrative game play (NGP) or Structred Gameplay(SGP). NGP can be, according FFG ECRB three minutes, three hours, three days. SGP is broken down into rounds which is then broken down into turns.

If you take time out of the equation, then you must also take distance out of the equation. Time and Space are actually both things we call “Dimensions”, and when talking about doing Thing-X to Thing-Y, it would be a complete non-sequitur to remove one dimension while saying that these other dimensions are sacrosanct.

Nothing in this game, or anywhere else in any Universe in existence anywhere, happens instantaneously. A blaster bolt doesn’t instantaneously cover any given range of distance. Nor does a laser beam. The laser beam might travel much faster, but it still travels at a given speed — and the very definition of speed is “distance over time”.

So, you’ve basically argued yourself all the way back to where you started out. Do you know the place any better now?

First off rgrove, there are some really good suggestions here that you'd do well to take to heart. Sometimes the "problem" might lie in the fact that you're using the wrong tool for the job. So don't be too quick to dismiss what people write as "not applicable." You are being given lots and lots of help here from people who've spent lots of time on this particular system, so take advantage of the added perspective. I can understand your frustrations with the way the range bands are defined, but the big problem that I see is that you're trying to get them to do something that they weren't designed to do.

As soon as the PCs turn and run you should have converted to a Chase scene.

It wouldn't have mattered. The chase rules simply regulate how the participants move from one band to another in relation to one another. It wouldn't change the inconsistentcies. One turn the guy darts ahead 1 km, the next he is ahead 10km...

Regarding vehicles "darting ahead" 10km or whatever, remember that turns happen at roughly the same time. Any "weirdness" or "inconsistencies" can be fixed with one simple word from the GM: "Meanwhile..." As in, "Okay, you take off in your landspeeder and gun it. Meanwhile, the hostile party that followed you out the door has taken their own speeder and given chase, and their blasters are filling the air around your speeder with a hail of red bolts."

...and in the time it took the other guy to shoot once.

Nope. If the guy is going to stand and shoot instead of giving chase, the shooting is an action that comprises much more than letting off a single shot. This is a strawman that deserves to be thrown into the fire. Actions deserve lots of narration and denote much effort on the part of the character acting. "Shooting once" doesn't really connote much of an effort, does it? The weirdness here is due, in part, to the fact that you're not narrating the action properly. But if a character decides to shoot and not chase, then it doesn't matter if it's 1km or 10km; the important piece of info here is that his target is now out of range.

It would appear that the biggest problem I will have to overcome is my long time practice of describing the scene, heck describing my entire game actually, in real terms instead of game terms. We tend to avoid terms like 'wound thresholds, range bands, encumbrance limits, and the like unless absolutely necessary and even then as a sort of foot note.

This translation from real world to game terms is kind of problematic where the ranges come in, once you've established a distance. Doing it the other way is far easier, but kind of weird to my mind. Ill give it a try though.

Thanks again everybody.

It's not that one shouldn't use "real world" terms. Rather, use narratively descriptive words rather than technical terms. The range bands are perfect for this, because you can simply say "He's a short distance away from you. It'd be Easy to toss a grenade under his feet." or "He's a long distance from you, out of the effective range of your blaster pistol." Or, "he's extremely far away; he won't even hear you talking unless you shout as loud as you can, and even then you probably won't be heard distinctly." Like you can use the dice to tell your players how difficulty something will be: "This is an Easy task," or "This is a truly Daunting undertaking. Not for the faint of heart or those lacking in skill."

"Short, medium, and long" are relative terms, but that doesn't make them "not real" terms when it comes to distances. This is why we use expressions like "a stone's throw," or "a hop, skip, and a jump," or "a ways down," or "just down the street/around the corner." We also use measurements like "a few car lengths," or "a couple blocks," or "several strides," or "a head taller than me." All real world terms, all descriptive, but also all relative—and yet it's all good, because we got the point across well enough.

When describing the size of a room, if I need to give an accurate depiction of size and in-universe terms will not suffice, I will usually compare it to something in the immediate physical world. Like, "Out of character, this room that your characters are in is about twice the size of the room we're in now, but the ceiling is about 4 times higher."

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I rarely use numbers, because I use them for mathematical calculations, not visualizing environments. Also, I know that bringing hard numbers into the game can generate fruitless arguments that have nothing to do with the actual scenario.

And after all that, if a player ever complains about inconsistency, I can just say "Thanks for being willing to roll with it for right now, but please remind me that you want to talk about it after the session." Then when we have the conversation, I just lay out that Star Wars is space opera and that numbers and distances are really not that important in the setting. Vehicles move at the speed of plot, there are loud & fiery explosions in space, and the majority of planets in the galaxy have exactly one biosphere. I will also continually remind the players that I am there to give them a good time, and that they should trust me to run a fun game & to not screw them over. I have never had a problem that I could not settle with these sorts of explanations—and because I do, I've never had the need to deal with rules lawyering head-on. You just take it from a different angle, turn it on its head, and carry on.

Read this several times take it to heart. This is what I mean when I say don't use real numbers because we do not use numbers for more things in real life as we are very bad at judging distance. The only time you should use real numbers is if they are using a device that measures for you. like a scope or macrobinoculars. and even then it would be better to avoid them. They just cause the arguments you see in your example.

I think you should probably watch the forest scene in Return of the Jedi again. We see exactly the scenario you are describing. Nevermind my earlier examples of cop/action movies, just look at Return. The 2 stormtroopers on speeders, see our heroes, and one of them gets on his speeder and starts to accelerate away. while he is getting up to speed , which isn't an instantaneous thing, it takes a few seconds to speed up and actually travel distance, the heroes shoot at him. One of them gets away, the other one gets blown up.

Player: Heck with that, if there is room he's gonna whip this thing around and go. That thing is going to open fire on us any second.

Player2: No, it cant. We are Medium range, those are light blaster cannon remember? Short range.

GM: Well not technically, the stats for vehicle weapons are at Planetary scale, short range is quite a bit farther than short range for your side arms.

Player: Oh yeah, that's right, so are we in range then?

GM: Hmm, hold on a sec, I would think so but.. yeah, for sure.. short range in planetary scale is like several dozen kilometers. Yeah, your in range alright.

Player: Several dozen kilometers? The short range light blaster cannon can shoot us at like 30 or 40 clicks away? That's like on the horizon!

GM: Well they don't have to shoot that far, that's just the farthest the range band goes. Short range right under it could be only several kilometers so, oh I don't know, maybe they could shoot you at 3 or 4 kilometers away. What does it matter? They are only a couple hundred meters from you right now.

Player: A couple hundred? I thought we were at medium range, several blocks you said. The book here says that a few dozen meters. When does a few dozen equal a couple hundred. And wait, is there a log for stuff like the range of those laser cannon? Id like to know what their range is rather than have to wait for a judgement call each time.

Even at keeping both those scales. The problem im seeing here is that, in this situation, you make the problem here, not your players. (and i dont mean this in a insulting/pointing fingers sort of way, what i mean is:)

Player: Heck with that, if there is room he's gonna whip this thing around and go. That thing is going to open fire on us any second.

Player2: No, it cant. We are Medium range, those are light blaster cannon remember? Short range.

GM: Well not technically, the stats for vehicle weapons are at Planetary scale, short range is quite a bit farther than short range for your side arms.

Player: Oh yeah, that's right, so are we in range then?

GM: Hmm, hold on a sec, I would think so but.. yeah, for sure.. short range in planetary scale is like several dozen kilometers. Yeah, your in range alright. Yeah, you guys are pretty sure that cannon can hit you from there!

Player: Several dozen kilometers? The short range light blaster cannon can shoot us at like 30 or 40 clicks away? That's like on the horizon! OKAY THEN LETS GTFO!

GM: Well they don't have to shoot that far, that's just the farthest the range band goes. Short range right under it could be only several kilometers so, oh I don't know, maybe they could shoot you at 3 or 4 kilometers away. What does it matter? They are only a couple hundred meters from you right now.

Player: A couple hundred? I thought we were at medium range, several blocks you said. The book here says that a few dozen meters. When does a few dozen equal a couple hundred. And wait, is there a log for stuff like the range of those laser cannon? Id like to know what their range is rather than have to wait for a judgement call each time.

I dont know where or why those distances go brought into it...

rgrove,

Just read through your long chase example.

I'd recommend sticking to using the range band terms and using it from the beginning and throughout because it does add clarity.

In terms of actual distance covered the range band rules are really loosy goosy - especially at planetary (surface or space?) scale but their purpose is to convey distance in a way that allows the players to know how they can interact with it - how many Maneuvers (whether on foot or in a vehicle) does it take to get closer/further away to is it within range of some sort of weapon.

Pick a scale - planetary(surface or space) or personal and stick to it.

Focus on what they want to accomplish (and ask them to focus on what they want to accmplish) instead of wondering if their planetary scale weapon range lets them fire to the horizon or not.

Just think about the descirption and the Maneuvers it takes to cross that distance.

The key thing that seems to be at issue here is cleary communicating between players and GM what is where and what can interact and keeping it consistent.

Pick a range band appropriate to the scene and that scales well relative to the participants (e.g., if the party and the opponents are in speeders then their relative speeds to each other is going to be consistent - using the range bands keeps things clear and consistent without the need to get into what Medium means at planetary scale).

To be honest I don't think I've played any version/edition of a Star Wars RPG where things didn't get a little wonky when mixing vehicles and personal scale.

*snip*

As soon as the PCs turn and run you should have converted to a Chase scene.

It wouldn't have mattered. The chase rules simply regulate how the participants move from one band to another in relation to one another. It wouldn't change the inconsistentcies. One turn the guy darts ahead 1 km, the next he is ahead 10km, and in the time it took the other guy to shoot once. Same weirdness applies.

Really wish this made sense. Any examples of play anybody?

This is where the narration in a narrative game comes into play. Now they're in the open, now they're flying through Beggar's Canyon, now they're in the open, now a flock of super parrots got in the way, etc.

You're also insisting on applying a linear interpretation of the chain of events even though the rules, and others have repeateadly pointed out everything happens near simultaneously.

In addition you assume the ground covered represents distance gained in a kind of 2D view of the whole scene, just like a tabletop simulator. There is nothing that says the distances covered represented straight line linear measurements. That could be 10km of tight cork screw turns and barrel rolls that never left one range band if the two targets stay on one another.

In addition since things are happening near simultaneous the only way to open distance is win the roll. If the PCs don't win that roll, they didn't surge forward 10km, and then the bad guys caught up, they may have covered 10km (which may or may not be straight line distance) but they both covered it and the relative distance between targets never increased.

Even in non Chase scenarios, everyone essentially gets the same numbers of maneuvers so everyone can more or less stay/move within range of one another. Given things happen near simultaneously everyone just stays on one another in a non Chase scenario. You keep describing the events in this Step 1 through X, chronological linear sequence of events, as if there is this huge inch worm progression occurring, but that isn't what's happening.

Not sure if this is helpful:

The mathematical relationship between things is in the range band term itself and not what the range band represents because narratively what the range band represents can be very fluid and vary greatly.

Everything interacts mathematically based on the range band "term" - e.g., It takes X Maneuvers to move from Band A to Band B. Your weapon is effective out to Band Y. What literal distances those bands represent is narrative.

*snip*

As soon as the PCs turn and run you should have converted to a Chase scene.

It wouldn't have mattered. The chase rules simply regulate how the participants move from one band to another in relation to one another. It wouldn't change the inconsistentcies. One turn the guy darts ahead 1 km, the next he is ahead 10km, and in the time it took the other guy to shoot once. Same weirdness applies.

Really wish this made sense. Any examples of play anybody?

The numbers are not going to add up a lot of the time - especially when it comes to planetary scale. There are no inconsistencies when you stick with range bands. Inconsistencies in the literal distance should be avoided because this is the realm of narrative.

Saying the guy darts ahead 1km, the next he's ahead 10km, is not really the way the game encourages the players to look at it. They moved from Short to Long range (or whatever). Narratively the players can decide what that means as it fits the scene (as 2P51 says above).

@Brad. See, first, I don't wish to argue... But I guess you do.

But saying "A round can be a minute long" means nothing. I never said the take time out, but thank you for putting words in my mouth.

We are talking about range bands. Not debating the nature of Space-Time, or the Fourth Dimension. Well you are, I'm not. This a game. And like I pointed out ever so clearly, but apparently you chose to ignore, in the game we can be in Narrative Game Play or Structred Game Play. Maybe you should go re-read that section of the ECRB.

But yes rounds can be up to a minute long. They can also be seconds long. So in the grand scheme of it all, it doesn't matter if we say that the round is ONE minute long or Three minutes, or 6 seconds long, it has no bearing here or effect on the size of a range band. So you see you argued your self back in a circle, because the like the spoon, there is no argument. The length of time that makes up a round does not change the size or the range band. ECRB says Close Range is up to Several Meters. YOUR time doesn't change that. It is still just Several Meters. Now if you choose to make your round last a certain time length and want to change close range to something other than several meters, you can, but that is not inside RAW/RAI. Range bands are not so fluid and nebulous as to jump in size from 10 meters in one encounter to 500 meters the next because you want your time to change for the Round, or because you are now calculating the speed of the blaster bolt versus that of some one running...

"Do you know the place any better now?"

This is where the narration in a narrative game comes into play. Now they're in the open, now they're flying through Beggar's Canyon, now they're in the open, now a flock of super parrots got in the way, etc.

This is where the narration in a narrative game comes into play. Now they're in the open, now they're flying through Beggar's Canyon, now they're in the open, now a flock of super parrots got in the way, etc.

Exactly. When I want to put a chase into a game (or anticipate where one might be), I don't map out 100 square miles in every direction down to the last meter. I come up with a series of scenes, some cool action beats. For example. . .

Round one, the players (already racing along in their speeder) come to an enemy roadblock and have to turn hard left down a disused road leading into a canyon. Call it a purple and a red difficulty to not broadside the blockade, and (depending on the roll) I might have the pursuing biker scouts close slightly.

Round two will be them having to dodge some rocks and outcroppings. The pilot gets to roll their difficulty (we'll call it two purples, a red and a couple of blacks for the rocks) while the players can shoot at the speeder bikes hot on their tail (we'll call that medium personal range) and the biker scouts get to return fire.

Round three, there's a split in the canyon, off to the left and off to the right. The pilot can try a deception roll to fake out the pursuers on which direction he'll choose, plus a one purple one red roll (no blacks) to execute the maneuver. Passengers shoot as before, but also have them do an athletics to hang on when the speeder swerves unexpectedly. The enemy pilots roll their discipline to not get fooled and a either two purples (if they don't fall for it) or two red (if they do) piloting roll and they might move to close personal range, depending on how both well sets of pilots roll.

Round four - they have to navigate a cave. The pilot has to roll against two reds and a black for the darkness and a black for the stalagmites. Passengers get to roll against coordination to not get clobbered on the head by the stalactites.

Round five - when they race out of the cave, one last piloting roll on the (presumably) dwindled biker scouts, who will probably try and go at the same time, collide with each other and explode majestically as the players sail to safety just ahead of the fireball.

Boom, one satisfying and cinematic chase sequence and no range bands or measurements of distances anywhere in sight.

Well scripted and very cool but completely ignoring the game rules. I'm tempted to go this route though. It woukd seem the best way to dodge the whole issue.

Well scripted and very cool but completely ignoring the game rules.

No, it isn't..."completely ignoring the game rules", that is. It's exactly how the game expects you to run these kinds of things. It's exactly why the game isn't fussed about exact distances, and is only concerned with relative distances.

Kind of had the same thoughts myself at little when reading that section.

Kind of had the same thoughts myself when reading that section.

Sorry for the mixup. Im using my stupid phone.

Thanks again though for your feedback. Im really not trying to argue with anyone, rather just sharpen in on the exact nature of my misunderstanding. Thanks for being so patient.

Dude, can you stick with just one account? Switching back and forth makes it really confusing to follow who is saying what.