@Absol197 thank you for that great post! Im also surprised noone until you mentioned that the first post was providing way too many maneuvers in one turn.*thumbs up*

@Rgrove0172 there is nothing stopping you from using numbers for your distances. Completely feel free to say, "you see a squad of stormtroopers 100 feet from you, stopping foot traffic and checking ID, they are focused on their task and havent paid any special attention to you."

Player 1: "im gonna step aside and take cover behind the nearby dumpster and start shooting"

Player 2: "as this starts i epically facepalm and barrate Player 1 for being reckless af"

GM: *chuckles at P2* *to P1* "okay,you'll be taking this shot at medium range, and you'll have 2 setback dice due to the crowds you are trying to avoid hitting.

(Posted from mobile)

I haven't read through this whole thread but I have read a good bit of it and I think it really just comes down to a matter of perspective. Honestly, range bands are really important as they dictate the difficulty of combat in most cases. I can see where some players and GMs would have a hard time playing loose and fast with range bands and thus the difficulty of the game. Distances(range bands) are a big part of the structure of play in ETOE, but the issue I see here is, how and who determines the distances?

The how is simple for me, the story determines the distance. If it is a chase, and I want it to be thematic and tense, for the story then the story is telling me it should take 3 maneuvers to make it, to and then on and then moving with the speeder, thus the NPCs get to shoot.

If the story is telling me that the encounter before was already thematic and tense and it is best for the player to get the hell out of here, then how far is the distances becomes 2 maneuvers and an action(piloting check), thus the NPCs don't get to shoot.

The who is the gm, you just have to judge what is the best distance depending on the scene and setting. There have been times recently where I have judged correctly the distance and had a good chase scene and then there have been others where I have judged wrong and had players drag through a chase that really didn't do anything for the story or enjoyment of the game. You live and you learn.

The key really is consistency; that will just come with time and experience.

The only time actual measurements of distance should become a concern are when either A) a player wants to know them, or B) when the GM wants to know them. And honestly the GM should only want to know them when it is best for the story, or they believe the players are taking advantage of the nebulous nature of the distance.

Either way, from my perspective, either A or B should be the exception and not the rule. As important as range bands(distances) are in this game, rigid measurements of distance can really grind this game to a halt, and hurt the pacing and style of the system.

Gee you make it sound like the actual distances do have a part in the game. Be careful, that opinion won't win you many friends. Laugh

You know, I don't think anyone here is saying "Don't use numbers" to you, but more that hard and fast numbers are unnecessary. The book says "medium range is a solid shouting distance" (or thereabouts - I'm at work and don't have my book with me). You know about how far that is, so guesstimate. A combat indoors is probably not going to be longer than Medium, so just eyeball it.

When I use maps, I'm totally eyeballing it. "These troopers are about here, so we'll call that short. Those troopers are about there, so call that medium". So "Eh, that stormtrooper is about 150 feet away, give or take" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

Be careful, that opinion won't win you many friends. Laugh

You've just misrepresented everyone. Again. Good job.

I was joking, trying to lighten the mood that admittedly I helped darken.

At the very least due to the narrative style of this RPG. As the guy in the speeder starts up engages thrusters and heads away the other side will see them and get at least a parting shot...or call in some goons to chase him

Please see my last post on range bands.

The GM can describe that scene in many ways but the fact of the matter is that in about 4 minutes the speeder traveled somewhere close to 50km, according to the descriptions in the book everyone is reminding me to read. (page 239) that's 750kph. (Perhaps more oddly, a sandcrawler full of Jawas would have made the trip just as fast)

But forget the numbers and the speeder still closed on a object that was originally on the horizon at way beyond many sensor and weapons ranges in under 5 minutes, the time it took some others to set up a tripod and camera or something.

How do you narrate that in a game and not have the players stare at you a little stunned?

You keep clinging to those numbers, but you don't have to. Frankly you can use whatever range band intervals you want, and scale them according to the encounter at hand. I don't know why you keep translating range bands to "real distance" anyway, it's only going to do you and your players a disservice. All they need to know is if they're shooting someone at Extreme range, it's far enough that at minimum it will take the target 6 maneuvers to get close enough to worry about.

And if they keep asking you, or insist you provide and won't play without it, then maybe it's not the right game for them.

I have to ask though, when have ranges ever been "accurate"? I'm pretty sure D20/Saga didn't have an accurate representation of a sniper rifle according to your military-spec-quoting player.

This is why I enjoy using grid maps and minis!

That may be a solution for rgrove, and it's perfectly viable, but if the next thing he does is translate the grid to meters, he's back to the same problem.

For my game, I put range bands at 6 squares per (just like in Saga). Most maps are 22x34 or close to it, so it works fine.

You've just misrepresented everyone. Again. Good job.

FWIW, he did say “Laugh” at the end of his post, so I took that to mean that he was joking.

Maybe not an actual smiley or something that might have been more obvious, but still an indicator that he wasn’t serious.

From Force and Destiny CRB, page 215:

With the engaged status and the range bands, the GM is free to describe things dynamically and set scenes without having to worry about exact distances. Exact distances in meters do not matter. The details and adventure come first, creating a vivid picture in the minds of the players while allowing the GM to quickly provide the mechanical information they need to use their actions and build strategies.

Emphasis is mine. Now, I know you're about to say "Yeah, but...", so try to resist It really doesn't matter. The fact that this is becoming a major bugaboo with you, means that:

(For Haley: A picture of Yoda with the quote "You must unlearn what you have learned.")

I've been playing a campaign for three years now (with a couple of Pathfinder people no less) and ranges have never been an issue. They ask me what their range is to a bad guy, I tell them it's short, medium, or whatever, and they just go with it. When you have a story-driven game, the ranges are just another story element. If you're watching a movie on your TV with a car chase, do you pause it, take your your tape measure, and try to estimate the distance between the two vehicles on the screen? No. And why? Well, first, because that would be very weird And second, because knowing the distance in feet or meters between the cars doesn't enhance the story or the action one iota. In fact, it detracts from it. Which seems to be exactly what's happening with you.

The real issue, obviously, is that you're coming into combat with a tactical mindset. You may be used to systems where exact distances in feet, meters, squares, or hexes, are necessary to play out the combat. SWRPG is not one of these systems. You're not supposed to picture a map grid in your head when you go into combat, you're supposed to picture what the scene would be like if you were watching it in a movie. This is cinema of the mind, not D&D 4e or an X-wing Miniatures game.

This can be quite a hump to get over at first, but once you do, this will cease to be a problem.

Also you don't teleport to the end of the range band it takes time for you to travel that distance. A round is about a minute but everyone gets to act in that same minute so everyone gets a time slice of that minute and those time slices overlap a bit.

That's true but take two tanks engaged at short range. One decides to maneuver away. In the time it takes his opponent to fire (one turn) he moves dozens of kilometers. That's at slow speed.

except that no not one turn. The end of a turn is when you get to the top of the initiative. not when the heroes turn ends. So on the bad guys turn they get to move and thus when they fire they won't be out of range. You keep slicing time wrong. When one person ends their turn the round is not over. And the other guys can move then act if they choose to.

You missed my point, they didn't follow, they just fired on them as they left, getting one shot off as the target apparently warps kilometers away.

And they are NOT kilometers away. At best they are only a few seconds behind. As I have said a few times this is not a system where people teleport about. And as someone noted you still have to take a maneuver to accelerate A maneuver to get in a action to fly drive. And all of those take time.

just say the storm troopers are about 100 meters away at medium range. keep those edges of those range bands fuzzy sometime the shot might be short...sometimes it might be medium. Since the characters don't really have a way to measure in the game that just means sometimes they guessed better than others.

Also, from EotE CRB page 210:

One other thing. I know this whole deal with range bands is probably frustrating you, and I understand how you must feel about it. However, from an outside perspective, getting so hung up on such a trivial thing to the point of quitting the game is... well... ridiculous. When a dozen people tell you that it doesn't matter, you can be pretty much assured that it doesn't matter You're over-complicating a simple mechanic. I know it's going to be hard to do, especially if you come from more simulationist rule systems, but just forget about feet, meters, squares, hexes, yards, furlongs, leagues, or miles. Feel free to use them in your descriptions of the scene, but as far as actual structured time goes, "There is no distance, there is only The Range Bands"

It isn't terribly unrealistic (well... STAR WARS unrealistic) that, to people on foot, vehicles move so far as to effectively disappear as soon as they're moving. It happens in RotJ. Once those speeder bikes start moving, they're just gone.

Then we get to feel the abstract nature of ranges when, after some super high speed chase through the forest that had to end up at extreme range from the stationary rebel team, Luke walks back in a matter of minutes.

The ranges are abstract. The numbers provided are a crutch for those times when they matter. Those times should be few and far between. In my experience, the numbers might come up at the start of a scene but, after that, distances are usually spoken in range bands.

Numbers just mess things up in Star Wars, in general! If you use the narrative for how long it takes to navigate from a planet to its moons and use our own planet's and moon's distances to calculate the speed, the Millennium Falcon is moving so fast that, when Han says, "That'll do nicely." as he looks out at the not-cave, he'd be looking at it in Los Angeles while flying low over New York. And don't get me started on 12 parsecs!

Don't throw your rulebook away. Just figure out how to prioritize what's in there so that you're not feeling like you need to reconcile numbers vs. story... and when the two seem to clash, story should win with a nod and wink at the numbers. It was, after all, a 2m wide target shaft rather than a, "super teensy weensy" target shaft even if both descriptions would have the same game effect.

As the turn can only be a minute or so

1. The game focuses on the characters and the heroic actions they take, rather than on measurements, statistics, or other minutiae.

2. Rounds can last for roughly a minute or so in time, although the elapsed time is deliberately not specified. Players should keep in mind that a round lasts long enough for their character to move to a new location and perform an important action. They should also remember that although each round is broken up into turns that happen sequentially in gameplay, narratively the turns are occurring at roughly the same time.

The speeds and range bands only really simulate speed relative to vehicles of the same type and distances appropriate for that speed. If used in that context, the mechanics work fine. However the numbers given for the planatery range bands are more appropriate for starships, less so for walkers and landspeeders.

Even if you were to create a "land vehicle" scale to assuage your cognitive dissonance, it won't really change how the mechanics would operate. The reason is simple: it doesn't take a whole lot of speed to zoom through personal range. It takes five maneuvers to go from extreme range to short range at personal scale. If you assume that's at a 10 kph jog, one manuever as slow as 50 kph covers that distance. Maybe a little quick for a sandcrawler but easy for most vehicles.

I heard "rules don't matter" loud and clear above. If that's the case I have over $250 in useless books. I could have told a Star War bed time story to my players before without them.

I will echo the advice of those that came before, the range bands can be adjusted for your needs and they are a variable range. The key is that your players know the difficulty of the task involved.

I'm not sure why anyone would be measuring time when all that's going on is two people set up a device and another is driving. None of that should be done in measured time.

Yeah, that's my takeaway from all this.

They were being shot at, combat rounds.

Depends if those shots are there to provide flavour or to actually effect the players, structured time is not always necessary only for direct combat when all are in danger of hitting one another.

Furthermore...you are being really childish and insulting to the community suggesting the game is nothing more than a bedtime story system. Maybe it's thanks to this being my first ever RPG as both a player and GM I am not beholden to restrictive views brought on by past systems.

I took a dive and tried other RPGs, specifically Shadowrun and found the entire system non intuitive and inflexible, a procedure for every minutia.

Apologies to any I offended. Another similar, well dang near identical, threat on this went way off into an argument and I don't want that repeated here. Many have given good advice, some privately too (much appreciated), and although I still have my feelings on the rules strict interpretation I have come to an understanding of how others use them. It will take some doing but I believe my players and I can work our way through it.

My comments on "story telling" weren't meant to be derogatory, rather aimed at the notion that the rules seemed to be ignored (or at least heavily modified) when the narrative didn't fit them. Again, unintentional slap to some of you I guess and Im sorry for that.

It would appear that the biggest problem I will have to overcome is my long time practice of describing the scene, heck describing my entire game actually, in real terms instead of game terms. We tend to avoid terms like 'wound thresholds, range bands, encumbrance limits, and the like unless absolutely necessary and even then as a sort of foot note.

This translation from real world to game terms is kind of problematic where the ranges come in, once you've established a distance. Doing it the other way is far easier, but kind of weird to my mind. Ill give it a try though.

Thanks again everybody.

I for one detest D&D 4.0 and all games of it's ilk. If I can play a game without numbers or without ever having to use a map or minis, I will be one happy dragon. IMO ( and I know some people do like the numbers) measuring every little detail takes away from the roleplaying part of the game. If you have to stop and have a two hour combat a la warhammer, it just disrupts the flow of the game for me, and I know my players feel the same way.

I think this is why FFG designed the game the way they did. In Star Wars, the story comes first, and the combat merely adds a bit of color.

I think what threw us off was how some sections of the rules are incredibly detailed and strict. Including rules for typically abstract notions like Obligation and Morality for example. Many of the skills and talents come with their own individual rules, dice interpretations and such that are quite intricate. Then, when you move to something as conventional as movement during combat, things get very freeform and abstract.

Theres a reason for it design wise certainly, and apparently a good one as sales would indicate, but it kind of a departure from the norm. To the typical player that sits down and figures out how to use his character and the rules surrounding him to best advantage, its a BIG shift.

We played a brief session last night and one of the players announced, at the onset of combat, that he wanted to remain back out of typical blaster range in order to keep an eye out for a participant that was expected to appear. The others moved in to engage but he remained at long range. When he was spotted by a cluster of minions, they moved on his position. In just a few rounds they closed to gun range. He was pretty frustrated when he told me he figured he was far enough away to prevent that and it should have taken far longer for them to reach him. (He moved to cover once and fired at them twice) I explained that it was only long personal range and perhaps they weren't that far away, maybe 60-70 meters or so (longer than a few dozen by the book). He baulked saying he thought of it as easily double that. Further than a few dozen meaning 150 or more!

When I told him it didn't matter and that either way they would have reached him in the same 3 rounds he was pretty confused.

We got passed it but that's a good idea of what we have run into. Nothing really major but misunderstandings between the game terms and what we envision in our heads.

Ok, to talk about Range Bands a little bit more. Rgrove0172 and I have been having a private conversation about it, and I made this chart for him that I wanted to share. I did a little extrapolation from the books, but I think I came up with a pretty good chart here to look at Range bands and help explain them to people. the book does use terms like "few", "several" lot, and I looked up the meaning and had to guess and some of the numbers. What I am presenting is an idea, not a final say or what has to be. just an IDEA of what CAN BE, and a better to show the distances of range. I do not and will not engage in arguments over what constitutes a "few" or "several". Please do not disrespect me that way. I do understand the FFG bands are somewhat fluid to an extent and my numbers I am putting on them do not mean these are concrete, but just a rough idea. Some people seem to think that range bands can and do change sizes, like from 100 meters one round to 500 meters the next. this is not true either. So, I'm just trying to help a friend out, and any others out there that might be having trouble with the "nebulous" Range Bands. If any one has any thoughtful critique, i would love to here it, but please nothing about "several" "few" or that my numbers are not concrete. I know they are not. Thanks for reading my bad guy monologue! Now, on with the show!

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I think what threw us off was how some sections of the rules are incredibly detailed and strict. Including rules for typically abstract notions like Obligation and Morality for example. Many of the skills and talents come with their own individual rules, dice interpretations and such that are quite intricate. Then, when you move to something as conventional as movement during combat, things get very freeform and abstract.

I agree that this system is a little odd in many ways. It feels like it's trying to be a 'rules lite' system like 13th Age, and yet has enough tables and charts to make E Gary Gygax a happy man.

It's an odd bird, I'll give you that.

But we had no problems at all with the range bands - it played perfectly to my 'theatre of the mind' way of running RPGs.

Some elements of the system are a tad fiddly, even counter-intuitive... but every table can change things if they wish and play as they see fit. We use some systems and not others - I use a simplified system for vehicle combat, so we can play the game in the style of the movies; fast moving and exciting. I don't roll for damage when our Exile picks up an ATAT and smashes it into another - by Rule of Cool, these walkers are now scrap metal, because that's what the players expect to happen.

My advice is not to sweat the small stuff. If it plays like pulp sci-fi, you're doing it right.

If you really love complex tactical battles, FFG do some fine games like Imperial Assault or X-Wing that might suit your needs.

I think you can just look to the movies for examples of firing at a ship from a stationary position. You have Leia shooting at the Slave 1 as it's getting up to speed from being in park. She gets a few rounds off on the thing, and then very quickly, it's out of range and off at high speed. We also have Padme shooting at a speeder/ship thingy, from a stationary position. She gets some shots off right at the start, as the ship is basically still accelerating, but again, it very quickly vanishes. Then we have Return of the Jedi, where you have a speeder attacking a stationary human. Or heck, just about any cop movie out there, where the car is speeding away, and a few people come out into the street and shoot at them. In all of those examples, the stationary person got what would probably be 1, maaaaybe 2 rounds of opportunity to shoot at the vehicle, and then it was simply out of range. Just do that. Use personal range for that initial round or two, while the person is getting up to speed, and the thugs are coming out into the street to shoot at them. If they don't get into their own vehicle to give chase, it's basically over at that point. They got a pot shot or two in, and then done. Maybe they get lucky and hit the driver, maybe not, either way, if the vehicle is still accelerating, it won't be an issue at all. If you have a character who specializes in extreme range shots, like a sniper, I'd let that person get a few more rounds worth of shots in, to reflect their skill/better weapon at long range shots. But after that, yeah sorry, vehicle is away, and the people standing are just out of luck.

At that point, the encounter is over, and the ship can operate under planetary range band rules.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Ok, to talk about Range Bands a little bit more. Rgrove0172 and I have been having a private conversation about it, and I made this chart for him that I wanted to share. I did a little extrapolation from the books, but I think I came up with a pretty good chart here to look at Range bands and help explain them to people. the book does use terms like "few", "several" lot, and I looked up the meaning and had to guess and some of the numbers. What I am presenting is an idea, not a final say or what has to be. just an IDEA of what CAN BE, and a better to show the distances of range. I do not and will not engage in arguments over what constitutes a "few" or "several". Please do not disrespect me that way. I do understand the FFG bands are somewhat fluid to an extent and my numbers I am putting on them do not mean these are concrete, but just a rough idea. Some people seem to think that range bands can and do change sizes, like from 100 meters one round to 500 meters the next. this is not true either. So, I'm just trying to help a friend out, and any others out there that might be having trouble with the "nebulous" Range Bands. If any one has any thoughtful critique, i would love to here it, but please nothing about "several" "few" or that my numbers are not concrete. I know they are not. Thanks for reading my bad guy monologue! Now, on with the show!

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We have the five Personal Scale bands. For use with people and smaller vehicles

And we have the Planetary range Bands.For use with vehicles and Starships. (these can be weird)

Personal

Engaged:With in to more than a meter

Short: up to Several Meters : (Several meaning more than two but not many.) call it 3

Medium: Several dozen meters: call it 3

Long: Further than a few dozen meters (Few can mean more than three or more than but many) call it 6

Extreme: No example given. High tech sniper rifle range.

Engaged 1 meters

Short: 1.1 - 3 Meters

Medium: 3.1 - 36 Meters

Long: 36.1- 72 meters

Extreme about 72+ - 1000 meters, 1 Km. Sniper range.

Planetary Scale range Bands

Here we have 5 bands but also we have Surface/Atmosphere and Space distances to adjust for.

Close Range: Slightly further than Extreme in Personal Scale. A few dozen meters up to several Km.

Short Range: Several dozen Km (several =3)

Medium Range: Surface/Atmo: 50 Km Space: few hundred Km

Long Range: Surface/Atmo: 200 Km Space: Several Thousand Km

Extreme: Surface/Atmo: Far edges of a vehicles scanner, beyond any weapon range. Space: beyond the range of almost all weapon ranges.

Close: 36 meters - 3,000 Meters (3 Km)

Short Range: 36 Km

Medium: Surface: 50 Km Space: 200 Km

Long: Surface: 200 Km Space: 3000 Km

Extreme: There is nothing out there Sir!

Yes, we put together something very similar to that in our first session. We felt pretty good about it until our first session where a vehicle at speed one ( a truck ) moved from Close to Short range in one round. In your chart that's a max of 36km or at the very least 4 or 5km in the Planetary/Vehicle scale. As there is no mention of a different time scale in that scale we had to assume it was about the same as a guy moving on foot from Close to Short or about 3 meters by your chart. If a vehicle can move 4 or 5 km in the time it takes a guy to run a few yards, its moving way faster than even the fastest Star Wars speeders did in the movies.

Obviously the range bands aren't meant to be used that way, or at least the movement rules within them. Lets not even get started on a short range light blaster cannon shooting that same 4 or 5 to up to 36km. It just doesn't seem to work literally. And I hear all of you saying that but I cant get a handle on how it therefore DOES work.

Any examples of play at the planetary or space scale would be appreciated.

And hey, gang, if your sick of this thread, just bow out really... I completely understand. Im at a bit of a loss of why I cant grasp the concept better. Im not a stupid individual and I have a lifetime of gaming experience behind me, some even in narrative, rules lite, type games. This one issue just has me stuck.

If range bands were all linear and constant, even across a given range, all the way up from a few steps to thousands of kilometers, and correlated with movement rates and weapon ranges directly, I think it would be simple. When a move equals a hundred meters this turn, a couple thousand next turn and then 10 thousand the turn after that, all at the same speed. I just lose it somewhere.

Ok, to talk about Range Bands a little bit more.

Okay, so first off, understand that I disagree with your basic concept here. Adding specific crunch of this sort does not serve this game well. In the movies, everything works at PLOT distance at PLOT speed, damage done is at PLOT scale, and damage deflected or absorbed is also at PLOT scale.

In one scene, they’ll do something that should be at a given range, and it will look like just a few feet. In the very next scene, they’ll do the same thing again, but now be separated by much greater distances.

If you try to take a ruler to the movies, one or more of several things will happen:

1. You will conclude that the writers in the movies do not understand the concept of distance, and therefore they must live in a universe that doesn’t have the normal kind of dimensions that we see in the real world.

2. You will hurt yourself as you try to whip your ruler around to measure various things.

3. You will hurt your brain as you try to comprehend how to take all these various different things and make sense of them.

This game tries to at least partially solve that problem by applying a great deal of abstraction. So, lots of common sense crunchy stuff gets thrown out the window, in the interest of trying to make it easier for people to tell fun stories.

If you want to use a ruler and still play something related to Star Wars, then try X-Wing or Armada.

But if you’re bound and determined to go through this process anyway, I believe you’ve made some fundamental logic errors. I believe that these kind of logic errors are unavoidable, so long as you’re trying to hold onto that old crutch of the ruler.

Personal

Engaged:With in to more than a meter

Short: up to Several Meters : (Several meaning more than two but not many.) call it 3

Medium: Several dozen meters: call it 3

Long: Further than a few dozen meters (Few can mean more than three or more than but many) call it 6

Extreme: No example given. High tech sniper rifle range.

Engaged 1 meters

Short: 1.1 - 3 Meters

Medium: 3.1 - 36 Meters

Long: 36.1- 72 meters

Extreme about 72+ - 1000 meters, 1 Km. Sniper range.

So, you’ve got a factor of 10x between Short and Medium range. But only a factor of 2x between Medium and Long. That makes no sense at all.

Keep in mind that a round can be up to a minute long, and an entire Minion group is frequently within Engaged range of each other. The blast radius on most grenades is Engaged range. So, Engaged range would need to push out to about 10 meters.

Most holdout blasters have a range of Short. Grenades can only be thrown out to Short range, unless you’ve got a specific talent that lets you throw them farther. So, stopping Short at 3 meters makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I could see pushing it out to 30 meters, but then I could also see it pushing out beyond that. Let’s call it 30 for now.

Most blaster pistols and carbines can reach out to Medium range. 100 meters sounds good, for now.

Rifles can get to Long range. 300 meters sounds about right. I’ve shot a standard M-14 rifle with a good scope at 300m and put my first three rounds into a space smaller than a dime. So, good rifles can get further than 300m, but let’s stick with this number for now.

Extreme makes sense for the longest-range sniper rifles, and in this modern world they can exceed 2km. But for these purposes, I’d be willing to go to 1000m.

So, that’s one set of range bands, based on what blaster weapons and modern projectile weapons can do.

Now, we need to have the same sort of discussion regarding how fast someone can run. Guess what? You’ll come up with different numbers.

Now, we need to go through a sequence of the same sort of discussion regarding range bands, based on a variety of other factors. And you’ll get different answers every time.

Then you need to rinse and repeat that whole process for each and every one of these categories, based on what happens in the movies, so that you can get that authentic Star Wars feel.

You see, this is a process that the game developers already went through, years ago. They discovered the same problem. You just can’t come up with a simple fixed set of range bands that fit into rigid ruler-based mentality thought processes, and still have it work for narrative game purposes.

For narrative purposes, you MUST NECESSARILY throw out the rulers. You MUST NECESSARILY get more abstract. Only then can you start to weave the mechanics of the game around the plot and the narrative of the story.

Thanks very much guys. At the risk of annoying anyone too much Im going to relate an example then, if Im still dense as a post, Ill sign this thread to an end and let you guys go back to your lives!

GM: Ok, you dart around the corner and see your speeder right where you left it, despite the streets filling with panicked civilians reacting to the smoke and fire you just came from.

Players: Ok, we hop in. Bregs will drive. Any sign of those security agents on our trail?

GM: (rolls indicate the players don't see closing agents) Nope, it looks like you gave them the slip. Where you headed?

Players: We take off slow, towards the spaceport, don't want to run anybody over. Keep it at speed 1 and hope the streets don't clog completely.

GM: Ok, no problem, you are moving along but slowly, at a crawl really. (GM knows two agents have spotted them from an alley and are calling for backup.)

Players: We are keeping our eyes pealed for those blue uniformed guys. Keeping blasters at hand but down inside the vehicle, no sense drawing attention.

GM: You travel for only a couple minutes, managing only a couple of blocks when a security van pulls out into an intersection in front of you. Its one of the big ones, with the turret. Its lights are flashing and a loudspeaker starts blaring for you to stop and get out of the vehicle.

Players: Screw that, Bregs - get us out of here! We put the thing in reverse and move back toward the nearest intersection behind us. Surely this guy wont open fire with civilians all over the street?

GM: Well these civilians are old hands at avoiding the security bureau's muscle, they are clearing the streets rapidly. Ok, lets go to combat rounds, you guys are in for a fight. Your both in vehicles so we could switch to planetary scale but you are in pretty tight quarters, only a few blocks away so lets stick to personal scale for now.

Players: Ok, heres our initiative rolls.

GM: Alright, you go first. The Van is at Medium range, say a few blocks down the street. Your facing it, the crowds is thinning around you.

Players: Ok, Bregs will back us up, the rest of us will squeeze off some shots toward the vehicle, try to shake them up a bit.

GM: Ok, your shots are all pretty ineffective, everybody is using pistols so.. maybe a few bolts impact off the van's armor but to little effect. It does however cause an even bigger panic in the street. Folks are fleeing now, not just hurrying. As to Breg, backing is going to be slow, Ill say double the maneuvers needed to increase your range band to Long.

Player: Heck with that, if there is room he's gonna whip this thing around and go. That thing is going to open fire on us any second.

Player2: No, it cant. We are Medium range, those are light blaster cannon remember? Short range.

GM: Well not technically, the stats for vehicle weapons are at Planetary scale, short range is quite a bit farther than short range for your side arms.

Player: Oh yeah, that's right, so are we in range then?

GM: Hmm, hold on a sec, I would think so but.. yeah, for sure.. short range in planetary scale is like several dozen kilometers. Yeah, your in range alright.

Player: Several dozen kilometers? The short range light blaster cannon can shoot us at like 30 or 40 clicks away? That's like on the horizon!

GM: Well they don't have to shoot that far, that's just the farthest the range band goes. Short range right under it could be only several kilometers so, oh I don't know, maybe they could shoot you at 3 or 4 kilometers away. What does it matter? They are only a couple hundred meters from you right now.

Player: A couple hundred? I thought we were at medium range, several blocks you said. The book here says that a few dozen meters. When does a few dozen equal a couple hundred. And wait, is there a log for stuff like the range of those laser cannon? Id like to know what their range is rather than have to wait for a judgement call each time.

GM: I guess it does right now I guess. Laugh, really lets move on guys, quit picking, and their range is Close, lets move on.

Player: Ok, so we (rolls Piloting) turn and dart back the way we came. Do we make it to the intersection, long range or whatever?

GM: That was a crappy roll, the threats killed you. Im going to say you got bogged in by people and unless your willing to run them over, your not moving far.

Player: No we aint doing that, so did we make any progress at all?

GM: Not really. Your only a few meters from where you were but you are turned around.

Player: Ok, so what does the van do.

GM: It guns its engines and speeds toward you, oblivious of the civilians still scattered here and there in the street. The driver knows his stuff, weaving through the traffic pretty effectively, only hitting one or two.

Player: How close does he get, we still got a chance to get to that last intersection?

GM: Well, he is unimpeded really and at planetary scale he could move from close to short, that's several kilometers, in one round after going to speed one. He uses two maneuvers and does both, gunning the engine. I gave him and the van a stress for it. Im going to rule he is right on top of you.

Players: What? You said he was like a couple hundred meters away? What the hell? And wait, did you say he could move several kilometers a round at that other scale? Like if we were out on the dunes or something?

GM: Yeah, I know, just a sec. Something isn't working here. Logically that just doesn't work but the rules don't really give me an option. A vehicle gunning the engine and only moving from close to short, maybe a few meters, in personal scale doesn't sound right but at planetary scale he could cross the whole town. Kind of in limbo here.

Players: Turn is a minute long right?

GM: Well not really, not exactly or consistently. It depends on the situation, what actions are taking place.

PLayers: Well we are firing at him and turning around in a crowd, so how long is the round in this case?

GM: Probably about a minute. Laugh

Players: Fine, so the van covers the 200 meters in about a minute? That's cool, sounds about right with the crowd and all, just kind of surprised me. When you said medium range Im thinking like we will have a chance to fire at him a few times before he gets here. But ok, so hes at short range now and what, like a half a block away?

GM: Umm, I could stick him anywhere, we are outside the rules here. We are kind of leaping back and forth between the range scales and its weird. He moved way too fast for Personal scale and way too slow for Planetary. Im going to go with it though, covered a 150 meters or so, half a block away now. I mean, it works and sounds right if that's ok with you guys?

Player: Sure, lets just play. Those range bands and movement rules are all wonky anyway, skippem if you like, we trust you.