Ive been ranting about my misunderstanding or my perceived problems with the range rules so I thought I would ask a simple question rather than get into unintended arguments with you guys.

The Hero is running out of a cantina and jumps into his speeder and start the repulsers, bad guys right behind him. The parked speeder was a few meters from the door so began at Close range.

Its his turn and he uses two maneuvers to speed away. Looking at the rules he uses Fly/Drive to move his speeder from Close range of the cantina to one range band away (Short) as he is at speed 1 and used the required 2 maneuvers.

The bad guys are a turn behind him and appear at the Cantina door, looking for their target. The hero is now at Short range. According to page 239 he is "several dozen kilometers away" and well out of sight, sound and reach. (say 36 or maybe 48 km away, you choose)

The bad guys curse and head home, wondering how he got away so fast. As the turn can only be a minute or so, no matter how you look at it, his speeder managed to travel 2400kph or so. Shorten the turn as some do and it gets worse.

That's a fast speeder or something is very very wrong.

If the length of a turn is different (longer) in vehicular encounters, it doesn't say so anywhere and even if it was the whole notion of other actions would have to be changed. So whats up?

p. 241 EoE CRB Chase rules.

"If the chase consists of two ground vehicles

I didn't recall that bit about using personal range but ...

Ok, switch it to an air speeder, same applies. Speed 1, one turn, 2400kph. It gets way crazier if he makes medium range etc. The ranges either have an equivalent distance or they don't. Perhaps they should have multiple levels at the higher ranges, taking several maneuvers to traverse them. (like 10!)

Set this scenario up with a spacecraft and it goes off the deep end. Ships traveling a constant speed accelerate into the thousands of km per turn in the upper ranges.

If you don't recall 'the bit' then you need to post less here and read the CRB, because 'the bit' is in the first three paragraphs.

That's helpful. Obviously nobody on the forums has ever asked a question that was answered in the rulebooks oh great one.

Ill concede you know the rules better than I. Obviously you read and depend on them more than you work on your narrative skills as GM or you would at least sympathize with what Im trying to illuminate here.

You are posing a series of questions and stomping your virtual feet about the game not being proof read, and not play tested and obvious problems. In many cases all the questions you have asked are explained in the book. In addition you insist on needing a linear set of numbers in order to be able to properly narrate something and I don't think it's necessary or frankly adds anything to the drama at all.

Ok, look I didn't want to start some flame war, certainly don't want to get into an argument with you. I can see our opinions differ, strongly. That's fine. You've made your point and Ive made mine. Perhaps someone else has something useful to offer but is afraid of collateral damage if they step in.

I will hold that the rules have some serious issues when you actually use them and none of the explanations about abstraction help at all, except to essentially exclude them as useless... again in my opinion. Obviously there are thousands of players using them and having a ball without my issues so its very much a personal thing.

My apologies for sounding nasty, I got heated too.

Good gaming.

I didn't recall that bit about using personal range but ...

If I run to a car and jump in and you don't have one then the chase will be rather short lived. So you have to assume that for a chase to exist the bad guys have a similar form of transport to the good guys.

If you have a speeder then you need to consider what a turn is, it may be a minute but you don't get a full minute head start on me, just a few seconds. You have the initiative and move to a vehicle and hop in and fly off, my action is not independent of yours, I move to my car and fly off after you all within that same minute. In game terms you will roll against me and based on the outcome I'll catch up or fall behind.

By acting first you get an advantage and a head start, but as our actions are "semi-simultaneous" I am not too sure you are measuring the beat of time properly.

Also you don't teleport to the end of the range band it takes time for you to travel that distance. A round is about a minute but everyone gets to act in that same minute so everyone gets a time slice of that minute and those time slices overlap a bit.

I didn't recall that bit about using personal range but ...

If I run to a car and jump in and you don't have one then the chase will be rather short lived. So you have to assume that for a chase to exist the bad guys have a similar form of transport to the good guys.

If you have a speeder then you need to consider what a turn is, it may be a minute but you don't get a full minute head start on me, just a few seconds. You have the initiative and move to a vehicle and hop in and fly off, my action is not independent of yours, I move to my car and fly off after you all within that same minute. In game terms you will roll against me and based on the outcome I'll catch up or fall behind.

By acting first you get an advantage and a head start, but as our actions are "semi-simultaneous" I am not too sure you are measuring the beat of time properly.

Understood but if their intention was to shot at my fleeing butt. What range am i? It's not a chase, they are stationary. If using personal ranges I barely moved, if planetary I'm in the next county.

Also you don't teleport to the end of the range band it takes time for you to travel that distance. A round is about a minute but everyone gets to act in that same minute so everyone gets a time slice of that minute and those time slices overlap a bit.

That's true but take two tanks engaged at short range. One decides to maneuver away. In the time it takes his opponent to fire (one turn) he moves dozens of kilometers. That's at slow speed.

It's also worth pointing out that these actions occur virtually simultaneously. IE you reach your speeder at roughly the same time they reach theirs. You don't get your max speed away. During that first round they still have time to shoot at you and/or get on their speeder and give chase. It's not an instant thing where you get on your speeder and then zoooooom you're gone before they can even react. No, your actions and their actions are occuring roughly at the same moment with the Hero's actions given a slight advantage to having gone first.

At the end of the round if they haven't gotten on a speeder and given chase then yes you can move to planetry range bands and you're effectively gone. But being effectively gone doesn't happen till the start of the NEXT round. During that first round of combat/chase though they can still act and shoot/give chase

Also you don't teleport to the end of the range band it takes time for you to travel that distance. A round is about a minute but everyone gets to act in that same minute so everyone gets a time slice of that minute and those time slices overlap a bit.

That's true but take two tanks engaged at short range. One decides to maneuver away. In the time it takes his opponent to fire (one turn) he moves dozens of kilometers. That's at slow speed.

except that no not one turn. The end of a turn is when you get to the top of the initiative. not when the heroes turn ends. So on the bad guys turn they get to move and thus when they fire they won't be out of range. You keep slicing time wrong. When one person ends their turn the round is not over. And the other guys can move then act if they choose to.

Also you don't teleport to the end of the range band it takes time for you to travel that distance. A round is about a minute but everyone gets to act in that same minute so everyone gets a time slice of that minute and those time slices overlap a bit.

That's true but take two tanks engaged at short range. One decides to maneuver away. In the time it takes his opponent to fire (one turn) he moves dozens of kilometers. That's at slow speed.

It's not a YGIG wargame, its a narrative RPG, please stop thinking that one action is independent of the other. If the other tank wants to it can pursue and we have a chase. it can pursue or flee as it wants and the players can flee or pursue as they want.

At this point the GM takes over and tells the tale, not on a hex or square grid but in the imagination of the players. Think of this as a movie in your mind, not a table top board game or war game.

From Force and Destiny CRB, page 215:

With the engaged status and the range bands, the GM is free to describe things dynamically and set scenes without having to worry about exact distances. Exact distances in meters do not matter. The details and adventure come first, creating a vivid picture in the minds of the players while allowing the GM to quickly provide the mechanical information they need to use their actions and build strategies.

Emphasis is mine. Now, I know you're about to say "Yeah, but...", so try to resist It really doesn't matter. The fact that this is becoming a major bugaboo with you, means that:

(For Haley: A picture of Yoda with the quote "You must unlearn what you have learned.")

I've been playing a campaign for three years now (with a couple of Pathfinder people no less) and ranges have never been an issue. They ask me what their range is to a bad guy, I tell them it's short, medium, or whatever, and they just go with it. When you have a story-driven game, the ranges are just another story element. If you're watching a movie on your TV with a car chase, do you pause it, take your your tape measure, and try to estimate the distance between the two vehicles on the screen? No. And why? Well, first, because that would be very weird And second, because knowing the distance in feet or meters between the cars doesn't enhance the story or the action one iota. In fact, it detracts from it. Which seems to be exactly what's happening with you.

The real issue, obviously, is that you're coming into combat with a tactical mindset. You may be used to systems where exact distances in feet, meters, squares, or hexes, are necessary to play out the combat. SWRPG is not one of these systems. You're not supposed to picture a map grid in your head when you go into combat, you're supposed to picture what the scene would be like if you were watching it in a movie. This is cinema of the mind, not D&D 4e or an X-wing Miniatures game.

This can be quite a hump to get over at first, but once you do, this will cease to be a problem.

I'll have to agree with Oggy.

From what I've learned about you and your threads over the last couple of months, is that FFG SW might be fundamentally the wrong game for you.

Not trying to discourage you from playing it, but EotE and it's siblings are very rule-light games and fundamentally interpretative in nature, the dice itself are the best evidence to that.

I've struggled with that too in the beginning, asking questions like, why are the hyperspace travel rules so vague at best.

Range bands are also like that in my opinion, they're a guideline, not a end all be all of every characters position in relation to every other character.

You seem to be used to very crunchy systems, where every possible speck of dust has it's place. Those can be fun to, no question, but this Star Wars game is not about that.

Just try to do what feels right. Let it come to you naturally and organically, like the force.

Doesn't the vehicle start at Speed 0? It takes a maneuver to bring it up to speed 1, and even at speed one, you still cannot move out to short with your second maneuver. Do not forget to have the vehicle suffer system strain for two pilot-only maneuvers.

Finally, I agree with 2P51 that it would take a separate manuever just to hop into the vehicle, otherwise you devalue a talent.

Also you don't teleport to the end of the range band it takes time for you to travel that distance. A round is about a minute but everyone gets to act in that same minute so everyone gets a time slice of that minute and those time slices overlap a bit.

That's true but take two tanks engaged at short range. One decides to maneuver away. In the time it takes his opponent to fire (one turn) he moves dozens of kilometers. That's at slow speed.

except that no not one turn. The end of a turn is when you get to the top of the initiative. not when the heroes turn ends. So on the bad guys turn they get to move and thus when they fire they won't be out of range. You keep slicing time wrong. When one person ends their turn the round is not over. And the other guys can move then act if they choose to.

You missed my point, they didn't follow, they just fired on them as they left, getting one shot off as the target apparently warps kilometers away.

Also you don't teleport to the end of the range band it takes time for you to travel that distance. A round is about a minute but everyone gets to act in that same minute so everyone gets a time slice of that minute and those time slices overlap a bit.

That's true but take two tanks engaged at short range. One decides to maneuver away. In the time it takes his opponent to fire (one turn) he moves dozens of kilometers. That's at slow speed.

It's not a YGIG wargame, its a narrative RPG, please stop thinking that one action is independent of the other. If the other tank wants to it can pursue and we have a chase. it can pursue or flee as it wants and the players can flee or pursue as they want.

At this point the GM takes over and tells the tale, not on a hex or square grid but in the imagination of the players. Think of this as a movie in your mind, not a table top board game or war game.

Again your not paying attention. It's not a chase, one element is stationary. The rules allow the target to move at incredible speeds with longer range, kilometers in seconds.

Ok, switch it to an air speeder, same applies. Speed 1, one turn, 2400kph. It gets way crazier if he makes medium range etc. The ranges either have an equivalent distance or they don't. Perhaps they should have multiple levels at the higher ranges, taking several maneuvers to traverse them. (like 10!)

Set this scenario up with a spacecraft and it goes off the deep end. Ships traveling a constant speed accelerate into the thousands of km per turn in the upper ranges.

You know, if the player runs out of a cantina, leaps into a landspeeder and races off his two maneuvers, I'm going to say that there's no way he can hit top speed in city traffic. You ever try and race your lamborghini at 190kph in rush hour? Not happening.

(or at the very least all the pedestrians, men carrying panes of glass, fruit carts, cardboard boxes and baby carriages in the way mean that his roll is ridiculously difficult and full of Red Dice)

The Hero is running out of a cantina and jumps into his speeder and start the repulsers, bad guys right behind him. The parked speeder was a few meters from the door so began at Close range.

Its his turn and he uses two maneuvers to speed away. Looking at the rules he uses Fly/Drive to move his speeder from Close range of the cantina to one range band away (Short) as he is at speed 1 and used the required 2 maneuvers.

The bad guys are a turn behind him and appear at the Cantina door, looking for their target. The hero is now at Short range. According to page 239 he is "several dozen kilometers away" and well out of sight, sound and reach. (say 36 or maybe 48 km away, you choose)

As noted, in a round, the turns are somewhat simultaneous. A different example might show the consistency in the rules: you can only use a maneuver to gain cover, you can't disappear entirely. Say you're behind a completely impenetrable wall. If you don't pop up to shoot, I'd be okay with saying you can't be shot at. However, if you expose yourself (eh...you know what I mean) on your turn in order to take a shot, it means the best you can do is "take cover": you can still be shot, but you do get the benefit of +1 defense. If the next turn you want to stay hunkered down, I might ask for another maneuver to make sure you are really behind the completely impenetrable wall.

So in your case, the PC doesn't just disappear. The bad guys still get their shot. Maybe you can grant the PC "cover", if you're generous. Next round, Close planetary range is way beyond Extreme, so he leaves them in the dust. Haven't you seen the shows, where the speeder takes off and everyone is shooting wildly in vain? That's the scene you paint.

(or at the very least all the pedestrians, men carrying panes of glass, fruit carts, cardboard boxes and baby carriages in the way mean that his roll is ridiculously difficult and full of Red Dice)

...also, this^ The PC should have to make a piloting roll using the terrain rules to get away like that. Note that if they fail their piloting roll, they make "no progress", they do not increase their distance from their pursuers. There is never "no" terrain, unless you want to let the PCs get away clean.

Ok, thanks for the input guys but at the risk of sounding like a blockhead, there is still a fundamental disconnect in my opinion between how some things Mechanically work in the rules and therefor they foul up any reasonable interpretation. That same interpretation or narrative that is being stressed so heavily. BELIEVE me, I understand the concept and have played such games before but the rules should support such narrative not hinder it.

Ill try this one last time then let it go. When playing we use the rules of the game, interpretation of the dice and decisions of the players and GM to introduce a story line. So... what follows is a flow of events from the game in involving just one of the areas I believe are flawed. Feel free to provide an interpretation.

**Its the player's turn and they are in a speeder approaching a foritified camp. The GM states they come over a rise and there it is as medium planetary range. (The players, especially new ones, may ask about how far that is away. They glance at the book and see that is says under 50 kilometers which isn't extremely helpful but for purposes of this example the GM states its about 40 kilometers away but ok, whatever)

Two of the party jump out and set up a piece of equipment necessary for their mission. It will take several turns to assemble. They unload and begin assembly on the same turn the rest of the party proceed in the speeder.

They spend a turn assembling, approximately a minute as many of you claim, and make some progress. Meanwhile the speeder driver took one maneuver to increase to speed one and begins driving toward the camp. In the next turn he takes two maneuvers at speed 1 and moves from medium to short range and comes under fire. The next turn they do the same, and the speeder proceeds, still at speed 1, and then moves short to close range returning fire as it approaches. Since there is no closer planetary range, they come within Personal range and the rules state they can cross that distance easily, minutes to microseconds or something like that, so they arrive at the camp on the fourth turn, unload and begin a pitched small arms battle.

The GM can describe that scene in many ways but the fact of the matter is that in about 4 minutes the speeder traveled somewhere close to 50km, according to the descriptions in the book everyone is reminding me to read. (page 239) that's 750kph. (Perhaps more oddly, a sandcrawler full of Jawas would have made the trip just as fast)

But forget the numbers and the speeder still closed on a object that was originally on the horizon at way beyond many sensor and weapons ranges in under 5 minutes, the time it took some others to set up a tripod and camera or something.

How do you narrate that in a game and not have the players stare at you a little stunned?

Ok, switch it to an air speeder, same applies. Speed 1, one turn, 2400kph. It gets way crazier if he makes medium range etc. The ranges either have an equivalent distance or they don't. Perhaps they should have multiple levels at the higher ranges, taking several maneuvers to traverse them. (like 10!)

Set this scenario up with a spacecraft and it goes off the deep end. Ships traveling a constant speed accelerate into the thousands of km per turn in the upper ranges.

You know, if the player runs out of a cantina, leaps into a landspeeder and races off his two maneuvers, I'm going to say that there's no way he can hit top speed in city traffic. You ever try and race your lamborghini at 190kph in rush hour? Not happening.

(or at the very least all the pedestrians, men carrying panes of glass, fruit carts, cardboard boxes and baby carriages in the way mean that his roll is ridiculously difficult and full of Red Dice)

Its a mechanical example... for purposes of explaining the rules...

This is why I enjoy using grid maps and minis!

The GM can describe that scene in many ways but the fact of the matter is that in about 4 minutes the speeder traveled somewhere close to 50km, according to the descriptions in the book everyone is reminding me to read. (page 239) that's 750kph. (Perhaps more oddly, a sandcrawler full of Jawas would have made the trip just as fast)

But forget the numbers and the speeder still closed on a object that was originally on the horizon at way beyond many sensor and weapons ranges in under 5 minutes, the time it took some others to set up a tripod and camera or something.

How do you narrate that in a game and not have the players stare at you a little stunned?

You keep clinging to those numbers, but you don't have to. Frankly you can use whatever range band intervals you want, and scale them according to the encounter at hand. I don't know why you keep translating range bands to "real distance" anyway, it's only going to do you and your players a disservice. All they need to know is if they're shooting someone at Extreme range, it's far enough that at minimum it will take the target 6 maneuvers to get close enough to worry about.

And if they keep asking you, or insist you provide and won't play without it, then maybe it's not the right game for them.

I have to ask though, when have ranges ever been "accurate"? I'm pretty sure D20/Saga didn't have an accurate representation of a sniper rifle according to your military-spec-quoting player.

This is why I enjoy using grid maps and minis!

That may be a solution for rgrove, and it's perfectly viable, but if the next thing he does is translate the grid to meters, he's back to the same problem.