No rulebook replaces common sense.

Don't confuse a majority opinion with intellectual prominence. Idiots travel in groups sometimes. Not saying they are in this case, but just saying.

Because is disingenuous insult is not a insult?

You miss that your opponents understand your argument but you have shown no understanding of theirs.

It bares repeating that I REALLY want to understand what you guys are saying. If I could suddenly snap my fingers have your perception, Id do it in a minute. I do like almost every element of this game and would love to run a campaign in it for a while. Believe me if something one of you said 'clicked' it somehow, Id be jumping for joy... but so far it seems the biggest disconnect is between what Im trying to describe as a problem and what most of you come back with as a solution. For me, they just don't fit. I really wish they did.

As for all the nastiness on here, sometime mine included. That's just unfortunate and completely unnecessary. Not the way gamers should relate at all under any circumstances.

Because is disingenuous insult is not a insult?

You miss that your opponents understand your argument but you have shown no understanding of theirs.

No, I say this as kindly as I can but I haven't seen evidence that they do. I blame myself actually, somehow Im not relating the issue clearly or Im certain the responses would be more in line with "Yeah, we had that issue to but got over it in favor of a more freeform interpretation of range bands" etc.

A few have actually said something like that but were unclear even then as to how they actually used the rules now after a realization.

No more insults, from me certainly. That's not who I am as a gamer or person.

It bares repeating that I REALLY want to understand what you guys are saying. If I could suddenly snap my fingers have your perception, Id do it in a minute. I do like almost every element of this game and would love to run a campaign in it for a while. Believe me if something one of you said 'clicked' it somehow, Id be jumping for joy... but so far it seems the biggest disconnect is between what Im trying to describe as a problem and what most of you come back with as a solution. For me, they just don't fit. I really wish they did.

As for all the nastiness on here, sometime mine included. That's just unfortunate and completely unnecessary. Not the way gamers should relate at all under any circumstances.

Then you need to step back and do what we have suggested. Ask your self and your players what purpose does knowing the ACTUAL numbers serve? What purpose does knowing the speed of a craft actually serve? In the Mechanics niether really matters. Your example shows how the numbers DO NOT serve the narrative. If you had said they were at medium range and it would take them 3 rounds to get to them. They likely would have been happier. The problem came up BECAUSE you used numbers where they really didn't matter. If you had said around 40km...It will take them a few rounds to get to you...

Try not using numbers for a session and see how it goes. I think what you really need is to reset expectations. This game behaves different. Give a listen to the order 66 podcast.

Exert from private message sent today...

I think, God help me, that Im beginning to see that exactly what a couple of my players were complaining of is what this system is really intended for. One of them bitched that it sounded like you were supposed to just "tell a friggin story any way you liked with some buddies and maybe use a rule or two if you had to in order to keep it straight."

In essence, I think that's what I'm hearing, well in a much more sophisticated and complementary way. The GM carries the action and uses the various tools of range bands, turns and what have you to lend a bit of structure but not to constrain or even control the action. Its way more freeform than anything Ive ever been involved with.

What Im hearing is that in say one encounter, the GM declares the end of the clearing they have just engaged some Stormtroopers in as Medium range, where the ATST has just emerged... while in another encounter, perhaps in a city, he declares Medium range to be way down there at the end of a couple of blocks. Yes, the two distances don't exactly jive if you were to measure them and yes, that means that the missile launcher they have available suddenly kind of changed effective range a bit but... so what?, the ranges are there to facilitate the encounter, nothing more. If you want to throw a number at it for color's sake - "The ATST looks to be about 400 or so meters away." go ahead, but its just that, color or flavor.

Does that sound anything at all like what you and others were trying to explain to me?

So if the verbatim movement mechanics create some kind of weird anomaly, don't describe it that way or just hinder the movement a bit till it does make since and fits the 'narrative' of whats going on.

If Im on the right path here, let me know... and if so I have some apologies to make but also some serious politicking to do with a few members in my group as they will see this as taking far too much power away from them. I have a couple that study the rules like a bible and use them pretty effectively. To know that it can be pulled out of their hands like that on a whim will probably take some getting used to.

If Im on the right path here, let me know... and if so I have some apologies to make but also some serious politicking to do with a few members in my group as they will see this as taking far too much power away from them.

How can it take any power from them? Their shooting ranges, movement, and all the other equipment/powers/etc are based on range bands, not actual distance. Nobody can "cheat" the system, there is nothing the GM or a player can leverage if you say something is 50 meters away vs 45 meters. Only the range band matters, and it applies equally to everybody.

I have a couple that study the rules like a bible and use them pretty effectively.

Well then they should know how it works and know that it's abstract, because it's very clearly spelled out. If they're berating you for not translating range bands to real distances, then you need to have a talk with them and tell them it's not your issue to fix, and to either back off or play a different game.

Don't confuse a majority opinion with intellectual prominence. Idiots travel in groups sometimes. Not saying they are in this case, but just saying.

I would eschew labeling an understanding of the rules an opinion. Additionally, I don't feel like I've read anything in this thread that questions anyone's intelligence until now, and frankly it seems like a slap in the face to all the people who have attempted to help you that you can't even bother to quote when replying.

There are those that understand and accept the rules, and there are those that do not. I would defend your right to run your game however you see fit using whatever rules you want, as I would for anyone playing any game at their table. If you don't like a rule or don't understand a rule, don't use it. Bolt on whatever rules you and your players see fit to bring you all the maximum enjoyment of your limited gaming time.

Don't confuse a majority opinion with intellectual prominence. Idiots travel in groups sometimes. Not saying they are in this case, but just saying.

I would eschew labeling an understanding of the rules an opinion. Additionally, I don't feel like I've read anything in this thread that questions anyone's intelligence until now, and frankly it seems like a slap in the face to all the people who have attempted to help you that you can't even bother to quote when replying.

There are those that understand and accept the rules, and there are those that do not. I would defend your right to run your game however you see fit using whatever rules you want, as I would for anyone playing any game at their table. If you don't like a rule or don't understand a rule, don't use it. Bolt on whatever rules you and your players see fit to bring you all the maximum enjoyment of your limited gaming time.

The slaps were incoming long before any went out. But Ive apologized for those and don't want to see them revisited. As to quotes, yes sometimes they do help isolate where a particular statement is coming from but when read in order the posts make it pretty obvious what instigated a particular remark.

Yes, on the right path!

Yuck, did you say rules lawyers?

This really isn't a game about being effective or winning or competing with the gm or the other players. It really is a game about telling a cool stories together!
I understand Roleplaying games can be hard to get into if you aren't joining an already established and experienced Group.
I suggest you and your players start listening to some podcasts! One Shot, Campaign, Silhouette Zero, Bothan Banther.
Enjoy:)

This really isn't a game about being effective or winning or competing with the gm or the other players. It really is a game about telling a cool stories together!

I understand Roleplaying games can be hard to get into if you aren't joining an already established and experienced Group.

I suggest you and your players start listening to some podcasts! One Shot, Campaign, Silhouette Zero, Bothan Banther.

Enjoy:)

Exert from private message sent today...

I think, God help me, that Im beginning to see that exactly what a couple of my players were complaining of is what this system is really intended for. One of them bitched that it sounded like you were supposed to just "tell a friggin story any way you liked with some buddies and maybe use a rule or two if you had to in order to keep it straight."

In essence, I think that's what I'm hearing, well in a much more sophisticated and complementary way. The GM carries the action and uses the various tools of range bands, turns and what have you to lend a bit of structure but not to constrain or even control the action. Its way more freeform than anything Ive ever been involved with.

What Im hearing is that in say one encounter, the GM declares the end of the clearing they have just engaged some Stormtroopers in as Medium range, where the ATST has just emerged... while in another encounter, perhaps in a city, he declares Medium range to be way down there at the end of a couple of blocks. Yes, the two distances don't exactly jive if you were to measure them and yes, that means that the missile launcher they have available suddenly kind of changed effective range a bit but... so what?, the ranges are there to facilitate the encounter, nothing more. If you want to throw a number at it for color's sake - "The ATST looks to be about 400 or so meters away." go ahead, but its just that, color or flavor.

Does that sound anything at all like what you and others were trying to explain to me?

So if the verbatim movement mechanics create some kind of weird anomaly, don't describe it that way or just hinder the movement a bit till it does make since and fits the 'narrative' of whats going on.

If Im on the right path here, let me know... and if so I have some apologies to make but also some serious politicking to do with a few members in my group as they will see this as taking far too much power away from them. I have a couple that study the rules like a bible and use them pretty effectively. To know that it can be pulled out of their hands like that on a whim will probably take some getting used to.

To ad to the list above give a listen to the order 66 podcast. This is probably one of the best rules advice podcasts for the game. Start with Episode 24 Kung Pow Chicken. Listen to 7 the List strikes back and 11 The Holocron 2.0. They are all good. but I think those 3 episodes will help you the most.

This really isn't a game about being effective or winning or competing with the gm or the other players. It really is a game about telling a cool stories together!

I understand Roleplaying games can be hard to get into if you aren't joining an already established and experienced Group.

I suggest you and your players start listening to some podcasts! One Shot, Campaign, Silhouette Zero, Bothan Banther.

Enjoy:)

I've said this a couple time already I think but 30+ year GM here with seasoned group. Our issues werent with roleplaying or even narrative roleplaying but with one section of the rules. We are getting a handle on it now, more or less, but thanks.

Don't dismiss the value of hearing how other GMs handle things in a game like this. There is always something another GM can teach you. Even when you have 30 years experience. You were running into some serious issues even with that experience. The attitude I don't need to learn anything from another GM just hinders you as a GM.

This really isn't a game about being effective or winning or competing with the gm or the other players. It really is a game about telling a cool stories together!

I understand Roleplaying games can be hard to get into if you aren't joining an already established and experienced Group.

I suggest you and your players start listening to some podcasts! One Shot, Campaign, Silhouette Zero, Bothan Banther.

Enjoy:)

I've said this a couple time already I think but 30+ year GM here with seasoned group. Our issues werent with roleplaying or even narrative roleplaying but with one section of the rules. We are getting a handle on it now, more or less, but thanks.

Don't dismiss the value of hearing how other GMs handle things in a game like this. There is always something another GM can teach you. Even when you have 30 years experience. You were running into some serious issues even with that experience. The attitude I don't need to learn anything from another GM just hinders you as a GM.

This. Don't presume that just because of your vaunted experience you can't learn anything more. You obviously are having some trouble even if only with one factor. As noted it may be helpful to you and your group to see/hear how others run their games or listen to advice from people who have been playing the game since it came out. Some of us have been here since the beginning and have contributed to it during each beta, especially the EotE beta. Some continue to be playtesters. And we have a vast range of people playing this game from young Haley (at about 16-17 years old) to old timers like myself and others that have been role-playing for about 40 years or more (yes I'm almost 50). I don't begrudge anyone their help. Even young Haley has some astute observations that amaze even me what with her more limited experience. Not to mention that many of us range across the world and have various backgrounds and experiences that don't always mesh except we all enjoy Star Wars and this game specifically. Even at my age I still find new things every day. small and large.

This really isn't a game about being effective or winning or competing with the gm or the other players. It really is a game about telling a cool stories together!

I understand Roleplaying games can be hard to get into if you aren't joining an already established and experienced Group.

I suggest you and your players start listening to some podcasts! One Shot, Campaign, Silhouette Zero, Bothan Banther.

Enjoy:)

I've said this a couple time already I think but 30+ year GM here with seasoned group. Our issues werent with roleplaying or even narrative roleplaying but with one section of the rules. We are getting a handle on it now, more or less, but thanks.

Don't dismiss the value of hearing how other GMs handle things in a game like this. There is always something another GM can teach you. Even when you have 30 years experience. You were running into some serious issues even with that experience. The attitude I don't need to learn anything from another GM just hinders you as a GM.

I never claimed to know it all, or even to know a little. I was responding to a comment that assumed I was a beginner GM or that our group was inexperienced. One can always learn, even from a newbie with fresh ideas.

This really isn't a game about being effective or winning or competing with the gm or the other players. It really is a game about telling a cool stories together!

I understand Roleplaying games can be hard to get into if you aren't joining an already established and experienced Group.

I suggest you and your players start listening to some podcasts! One Shot, Campaign, Silhouette Zero, Bothan Banther.

Enjoy:)

I've said this a couple time already I think but 30+ year GM here with seasoned group. Our issues werent with roleplaying or even narrative roleplaying but with one section of the rules. We are getting a handle on it now, more or less, but thanks.

Don't dismiss the value of hearing how other GMs handle things in a game like this. There is always something another GM can teach you. Even when you have 30 years experience. You were running into some serious issues even with that experience. The attitude I don't need to learn anything from another GM just hinders you as a GM.

This. Don't presume that just because of your vaunted experience you can't learn anything more. You obviously are having some trouble even if only with one factor. As noted it may be helpful to you and your group to see/hear how others run their games or listen to advice from people who have been playing the game since it came out. Some of us have been here since the beginning and have contributed to it during each beta, especially the EotE beta. Some continue to be playtesters. And we have a vast range of people playing this game from young Haley (at about 16-17 years old) to old timers like myself and others that have been role-playing for about 40 years or more (yes I'm almost 50). I don't begrudge anyone their help. Even young Haley has some astute observations that amaze even me what with her more limited experience. Not to mention that many of us range across the world and have various backgrounds and experiences that don't always mesh except we all enjoy Star Wars and this game specifically. Even at my age I still find new things every day. small and large.

Well I wouldn't have called my experience "vaunted" unless you are being sarcastic, hard to tell sometimes in the written form. I kind of get the idea you are prodding me a little without reason, but I could be wrong. My comment was informational, nothing else was intended. The post assumed we were an inexperienced group. We are not. I passed 50 a couple years ago and started RPing with the little white boxes Gary Gygax started off with. There is nobody in our group under the age of 40 or has less than 20 years experience in gaming. (That could be a problem all its own, a bunch of old farts stuck in their perceptions!) You are right of course though, you can always learn if your open to opinion and I certainly am. I have been throughout this thread, except in response to a few who seemed more interested in berating me rather than offering anything useful.

I never claimed to know it all, or even to know a little. I was responding to a comment that assumed I was a beginner GM or that our group was inexperienced. One can always learn, even from a newbie with fresh ideas.

I`m sorry, sir. I didn`t mean it like that. I admit that I assumed you might be new to more narrative systems or varied gaming. This is based on my own experiences of branching out and trying different systems after playing different editions of dnd for 15 years. Didn`t mean to offend you and sorry if I was wrong.

Well I wouldn't have called my experience "vaunted" ...

In a previous thread, with different words, you have done exactly that. If you want to know where the backlash comes from, it's when you berate the group for things you aren't understanding.

You don't give up do you? You must be a very unhappy person. Ive apologized, accepted responsibility and even acknowledged Im coming around to your way of thinking and you still want to nag. Geeze man, chill a little.

Maybe it's because only a few posts ago you said "The slaps were incoming long before any went out." It just seems a little disingenuous.

Don't dismiss the value of hearing how other GMs handle things in a game like this. There is always something another GM can teach you. Even when you have 30 years experience. You were running into some serious issues even with that experience. The attitude I don't need to learn anything from another GM just hinders you as a GM.

Excellent advice! I too have been GMing since the very early 1980's, and I openly seek to improve my craft. What I've found is that there's always something new to learn, even though I'm say, 33 years into this. I also don't feel the elitist need to discount the observations of people just joining the hobby - good ideas can come from anywhere.

Maybe it's because only a few posts ago you said "The slaps were incoming long before any went out." It just seems a little disingenuous.

Perhaps but if you go back and read the posts in order that they were made, its entirely accurate. I came in looking for help and several decided that I was therefore an easy target to ridicule. When I didn't take to their sometimes very vague explanations of what I was doing wrong, their impatience fostered some heat. Its not a big deal, it happens and I did my best to put it to rest there. Some have a tougher time letting things go. I get that. But really, lets call it over please.

Perhaps you could take the advice in the vein it is given. Instead of just shooting it down because you don't feel you need it. I have repeatedly seen you discount the advice you are being given while at the same time complaining about the system. It does not come across well. I think you really could benefit from actually listening to other GMs who run this game in live play podcasts as well as listening to some very experienced GMs in the system going over it to teach others.