Someone is having trouble getting the system and is asking a lot of questions and all he's getting back is "it's simple", "stop worrying about the details", "why are you having trouble with this", etc.

Now, that's a bit unfair - there have been more people trying to help than those slinging vitriol, but sure there are those slinging that too.

I'd just like to chime in - though I am not sure if this supports your argument, rgrove, or otherwise.

There's nothing prohibiting the use of exact measurements. The range bands are areas of effect but you can say that something is x distance (and so falls within that area of effect).

In most cases, the FFG scenarios do not specify exact distances because it narrows down the options of both GM and player in a way that serves no purpose other than to offer specificity. Instead, they rely on the GM to answer the player's questions where relevant. Also, it affords players the ability to utilise the mechanics such as destiny point usage to affect the narrative without being confined by those specifics.

Someone is having trouble getting the system and is asking a lot of questions and all he's getting back is "it's simple", "stop worrying about the details", "why are you having trouble with this", etc.

Now, that's a bit unfair - there have been more people trying to help than those slinging vitriol, but sure there are those slinging that too.

It's true that many have tried to help in this thread and others. But a lot of that help boiled down to "it's abstract, stop worrying about it and it'll make sense." But, from my observation, their help didn't explain things adequately enough for it to click for the OP and when he said as much both sides started getting frustrated. One side trying to understand the rules but the helping suggestions weren't explaining it well enough. Another trying to explain the rules but their examples weren't working for the OP and they expressed many expressed their frustration in a negative way. I can understand the OPs frustration, and I wish I could have helped more but I'm not experienced enough to feel comfortable trying explaining it.

Many tried and it didn't work but didn't get frustrated, and that's great.

All of this is my observations, so take that with a grain of salt.

One thing I like about Star Wars is that, rather than having the "John Wayne riding through the wilderness on a horse-drawn carriage for 8 minutes" malarky, or the "Hobbits walking across fields and marshes for several paragraphs" business, you just have the screen wipes. So my answers here are going to be influenced by the cinematic nature of the game setting.

Possible problem solutions:

1. If you're not in vehicle combat, you shouldn't really be using Planetary Scale range bands.
2. If you're not in combat at all, you probably shouldn't be using combat rounds. Wait to roll initiative until both parties have engaged, or are just about to engage like in an ambush type scenario. Don't roll it up when they are dozens of kilometers out from their target, and they have time to stop and build stuff.
3. If you must use structured play for some reason (there are many non-combat scenarios that deserve turns and rounds), embrace the elastic nature of the structured round. It's as long as you need it to be. In other words, it's as long as it needs to be for someone to do something significant (and also something cool, one would hope).

As to determining the distance: again, if there is a reason, and the PCs have some means of actually telling the distance, then (first) you as the GM can determine the precise distance of whatever your PCs are seeing (or perceiving through sensors or whatnot).

If the object is in their line of sight, you can have them make an Average Survival check, and they can get a rough estimate (thumb and finger method). Or have them use electrobinoculars or a rangefinder on a sniper rifle, and they will be able to more accurately determine the distance.

If the object is only visible through their sensors or satellite imaging, then probably an Easy Computers or Astrogation check should be sufficient to pinpoint or triangulate the distance. Or if you're not sensing with sensors, but you're picking up a signal on your comlink or something, then signal triangulation might be possible through other means.

But the main point is just to work with the actual distances (if necessary) until you actually need range bands (for turn-based play), and then use range bands that make sense for the current situation. Like combat rounds, the range bands should be flexible. Use them as written if it makes sense for the current situation, discard them or change them if they don't make sense. That is your prerogative as the GM, and it is assumed by the rules that you'll do so. That isn't an answer that's going to satisfy everyone, but this is totally my kind of game. It gives me enough pieces to build with, and I can be a granular as I like, but the rules don't stop me or my players from being creative.

Something occurred to me during lunch - Rgrove, have you actually tried out the rules as written with your group? Or is this all just you and your inability to wrap your head around this mechanic and the assumption that they'll balk? Because if your group is fine with the vagueness, then why reinvent the wheel. If they're cool, just roll with it.

It tells me that there are a lot of people on this forum that can be less than helpful. Someone is having trouble getting the system and is asking a lot of questions and all he's getting back is "it's simple", "stop worrying about the details", "why are you having trouble with this", etc.

No, we fully understand that he’s having trouble.

From what I've read he's trying to understand, but almost no one is really helping with an explanation outside of vague quit worrying about details answers or attacking him for not understanding their vague answers. There have been very few posters who have actually tried to help by explaining things. Absol197 did a great job here at breaking things down and explaining them and for that I commend him/her.

The biggest part of the trouble he’s having is that there are certain concepts that he has apparently gotten rather attached to, if not entirely married to, that do not serve you well in the Star Wars universe.

So, how many ways — and how many times — can we say “You must unlearn what you have learned”?

Perhaps some of us should back off and quit attacking him for not understanding and instead really try to help.

As I see it, there haven’t been any attacks. Some people frustrated that he’s apparently not getting certain basic concepts, perhaps. But not outright attacks.

I think it's important to note that the range bands aren't fixed. If the length of a round varies, the distance you can cover in a turn needs to as well.

You are accustomed to referring to distance in real-world units, but for the mechanics the only units of distance that matter are how many maneuvers it takes get there and how difficult the shot is. Try to get in the habit of using the relevant units when you can. Will your players ask for clarification if you start off by giving them all the information they need to make tactical choices? I think you'll find that most won't.

Sometimes real-world distances are needed to adequately describe something, and the numbers given in the range band descriptions are meant to help with that. Trying to use those numbers as a conversion ratio when the your time-scale is changing really messes things up. Adjusting the time-scale or the distances the bands represent (even if it is well outside the given range) makes it easier to maintain an internally consistent and exciting narrative. Some incongruities will crop up, such as how far a given weapon will shoot, but they can generally be explained away with convenient differences in circumstance when necessary.

The vagaries of the system allow it to be more robust than a more rigid system would be at handling diverse situations. Using representational times, speeds, and distances; a system designed to handle relative motion on a surface breaks down quickly when applied to orbital mechanics and vice versa. If the system allows you to adjust the definitions of the units on the fly, it handles both with a bit more aplomb.

Yes! So in combat, rather than "it's 150 meters away," why not, "It'd take you a couple rounds to get there on foot." I certainly don't look at a space and think in feet or meters. If anything, I think in more general terms, like "I could probably run that length in 20 seconds;" or, "It'd probably take me about 4 minutes to get to the bottom of the hill."

One of the things I’ve been trying to get better at doing with my players is involving them in important decisions in the story.

So, maybe when the players ask “How far is it to X?” perhaps your response might be something like “Well, how far do you want it to be?”

Many times, the players are going to want to be a little outside of the range of a certain type of weapon or effect. So, if they know the enemy has Medium-range weapons, then they’ll want to be a bit beyond Medium range. So, put them a bit beyond Medium range, and you don’t have to get specific with the numbers.

The more you can get your players involved in helping you to set an interesting scene, I think the more invested they are going to be in helping to tell an interesting story, and the more fun that is going to be had all around the table.

So, if the players ask you a question, think about whether you can turn that around to having them give you an answer they would like it to be, and then whether or not that is plausible in the circumstances.

I think in more general terms, like "I could probably run that length in 20 seconds;"

If you're anything like me, its "I could probably run that length in 20 seconds and then fall over from a heart attack panting and wheezing"

Yes! So in combat, rather than "it's 150 meters away," why not, "It'd take you a couple rounds to get there on foot." I certainly don't look at a space and think in feet or meters. If anything, I think in more general terms, like "I could probably run that length in 20 seconds;" or, "It'd probably take me about 4 minutes to get to the bottom of the hill."

I would think you are in the extreme minority there.

I think in more general terms, like "I could probably run that length in 20 seconds;"

If you're anything like me, its "I could probably run that length in 20 seconds and then fall over from a heart attack panting and wheezing"

Don't make me run! I'm full of chocolate!*

*How I feel after running those 20 seconds.

Even I'm getting tired of this thread now and have about decided to fix my issues on my own or give up and consider ebay. I have run 3 sessions for my group and my complaints are felt throughout.

If the rules allow that a given vehicle can move from medium to short range for example in the span of about 2 minutes, but the description of that distance in the book ranges from a few dozen meters to several kilometers then the variance becomes problematic even to narrate abstractly. In my opinion. You can ignore the numbers sure, I huess. I hear that's what I'm being urged to do. I get it really.

When my players ask what the distance to something is I give the measurement in jawas. Sometimes wookies or Star Destroyers.

It usually gets a laugh and allows them to use their imagination to define the distance between objects.

In my experience, the only time in a roleplaying game that descriptively defining a distance with a narrative wasn't accepted was when my players were trying to play a miniatures battles game. (Like 4th edition D&D)

I'm sorry but this sounds rediculous. In real life if anyone asks for a distance they get, well a distance measurement as an answer.

"How far away do you think that water tower is?"

"I don't know, maybe a mile?"

Why the heck is it taboo in this game for some of you guys?

Do you ever see anyone in the movies use exact measurements in the heat of combat? Did they use something like a macrobinocular or Electrobinocular? No? Then the best they are going to get is their characters best guess. And again does it matter? AT ALL? I am going to go with no it don't. Stop obsessing about exact numbers. You do not really use them in real life. So why would your characters in a game do so?

And no one here is saying not to use numbers. They are saying be fuzzy about what those numbers are and add the range band. So

"How far away do you think that water tower is?"

"I don't know, maybe a mile?" which is extreme range.

There done. You gave them a rough idea and what range band they are in. everything the player needs. If someone has a really good ranged heavy skill be more accurate for them than you are for the smuggler.

If they use something that would give them an exact measurement give them an exact measurement. But otherwise lean towards fuzzy.

I've never complained about fuzzy guesses, it was the magnitude of the guesses that bothered me. Looking at the water tower and not knowing if it were a few dozen meters or several kilometers away seemed odd, as did the fact that some could travel there in a couple minutes in a slow vehicle, that's all. But I get it, really, if anything the rules should not have given distance equivalents at all and it would be less confusing.

I think you are misinterpreting what we are telling you. When one tells you the range band you have just told them what magnitude the range is in. And really all the player actually needs to know is the range band. All you need to know is about how big those range bands are which the game tells you. You seem to be way too hung up on this.

If the rules allow that a given vehicle can move from medium to short range for example in the span of about 2 minutes, but the description of that distance in the book ranges from a few dozen meters. . . .

You explode out of the cantina onto the crowded street, gunmen hot on your heels, and leap onto the back of the speeder. Blaster shots tear through the air as you hurriedly flick switches and slam down the throttle. Almost instantly you nearly run headlong into a baby carriage, forcing you to veer to the left and plow through a stack of cardboard boxes and garbage cans before weaving back onto the street. By the time you pull the Meiloorun fruit peels out of your eyes, you're barely at the end of the block.

. . . .to several kilometers then the variance becomes problematic even to narrate abstractly.

You explode out of the cantina into the empty parking lot, henchmen hot on your heels, and leap onto the back of the speeder. Blaster shots tear through the air as you hurriedly flick switches and slam down the throttle. You're almost thrown off by the raw power as the tricked out engine roars to life. Within moments, you are a distant figure receding on the open savanna, gunmen firing desperately after you.

Yes! So in combat, rather than "it's 150 meters away," why not, "It'd take you a couple rounds to get there on foot." I certainly don't look at a space and think in feet or meters. If anything, I think in more general terms, like "I could probably run that length in 20 seconds;" or, "It'd probably take me about 4 minutes to get to the bottom of the hill."

I would think you are in the extreme minority there.

You have to consider why you want the measurements. What are they for? Why do I need them? If I need to know how long it would take me to get from Chalmun's Cantina to Docking Bay 94, why would I want an answer in distance? I'm just gonna need to do math in my head to convert the distance to meters per second. Best to say, "it'll take you 5 minutes, maybe half that if you hussle." That is what I need to know.

Then you roll the dice, maybe add your Shortcut talent Boost dice because you're in a chase, and come up with some massive success...hey, you found a shortcut! Only took you two minutes.

Or say you need to be able to estimate distance so you know what you can shoot at. All you need to know, when looking, is "could I hit that target with my gun?" That's where the range bands come into play. "Your blaster pistol isn't accurate/powerful enough to shoot that far, but that rifle you got off the stormtrooper could sure handle the shot." That is what I need to know.

I can't think of any situation where I'd need to know the exact measurements for the sake of knowing the exact measurements. Unless I'm doing interior decorating or something. And even then...

If the rules say that meters aren't important, then I would urge you to run it as written. Don't hand out distances in meters. You don't need to be all "It's just short range, get over it!" with your players, but you can say "It's a real easy shot from here, or you can just sidle on over that way in less than one round." That's all they need to know.

Even I'm getting tired of this thread now and have about decided to fix my issues on my own or give up and consider ebay. I have run 3 sessions for my group and my complaints are felt throughout.

If the rules allow that a given vehicle can move from medium to short range for example in the span of about 2 minutes, but the description of that distance in the book ranges from a few dozen meters to several kilometers then the variance becomes problematic even to narrate abstractly. In my opinion. You can ignore the numbers sure, I huess. I hear that's what I'm being urged to do. I get it really.

Well yeah a range band is just that. If it takes 2 manuevers to get to a range band that means it takes that long to get to the near edge of it. not the far edge. To get to the far edge takes nearly the number of maneuvers to get to the next one. So the near edge of the range bands is really what yu should be paying more attention to. Not the far edge.

Sorry you and your group are having such a rough time with this. It is a speed bump with most 'narative' and/or 'rules light' (this is not rules light but it is an issue I see in those systems frequently) that involves lots of hand waving. In a 'works as designed' moment, one of the elements to speed things along is hand waving a lot of those kind of hard numbers so they don't bog down combat with too much detail. From the sounds of it your group wants and enjoys that level of detail and, saddly, should probly look at converting another system over to the star wars setting.

In your example above of vehicle movement the exact distance really dose not matter. Before combat it took x time and distance before initiative was rolled, combat lasts x amount of rounds, when the combat is over your crew has moved x distance from where they start. All those X's are simply numbers that work best for the given situation. I agree it can get very confusing and contradictory but they done that way not because of an over site but as one less layer of complication that eats up play time. There really isn't a simple 'fix' without putting in a lot of extra time and work to re-do the entire range system and modify gear and equipment descriptions. Truthfully once you start a project that big it's just simplest to slap the setting on shadowrun or some other system with those kinds of hard numbers your team is asking for. Even you very first post the comment of 'its medium range get used to it' is actually kinda the answer. the actual distance from you to them in combat beyond range bands isn't in any way important as far as the system is concerned. They are just extra numbers that muddle things up. So they removed them from combat and when they show up in the gear section, really, they are just flavor text and not a hard rule.

To be honest that is why I'm glad I'm not running the game and just a player!

If the rules allow that a given vehicle can move from medium to short range for example in the span of about 2 minutes, but the description of that distance in the book ranges from a few dozen meters. . . .

You explode out of the cantina onto the crowded street, gunmen hot on your heels, and leap onto the back of the speeder. Blaster shots tear through the air as you hurriedly flick switches and slam down the throttle. Almost instantly you nearly run headlong into a baby carriage, forcing you to veer to the left and plow through a stack of cardboard boxes and garbage cans before weaving back onto the street. By the time you pull the Meiloorun fruit peels out of your eyes, you're barely at the end of the block.

. . . .to several kilometers then the variance becomes problematic even to narrate abstractly.

You explode out of the cantina into the empty parking lot, henchmen hot on your heels, and leap onto the back of the speeder. Blaster shots tear through the air as you hurriedly flick switches and slam down the throttle. You're almost thrown off by the raw power as the tricked out engine roars to life. Within moments, you are a distant figure receding on the open savanna, gunmen firing desperately after you.

Yes! So in combat, rather than "it's 150 meters away," why not, "It'd take you a couple rounds to get there on foot." I certainly don't look at a space and think in feet or meters. If anything, I think in more general terms, like "I could probably run that length in 20 seconds;" or, "It'd probably take me about 4 minutes to get to the bottom of the hill."

I would think you are in the extreme minority there.

You have to consider why you want the measurements. What are they for? Why do I need them? If I need to know how long it would take me to get from Chalmun's Cantina to Docking Bay 94, why would I want an answer in distance? I'm just gonna need to do math in my head to convert the distance to meters per second. Best to say, "it'll take you 5 minutes, maybe half that if you hussle." That is what I need to know.

Then you roll the dice, maybe add your Shortcut talent Boost dice because you're in a chase, and come up with some massive success...hey, you found a shortcut! Only took you two minutes.

Or say you need to be able to estimate distance so you know what you can shoot at. All you need to know, when looking, is "could I hit that target with my gun?" That's where the range bands come into play. "Your blaster pistol isn't accurate/powerful enough to shoot that far, but that rifle you got off the stormtrooper could sure handle the shot." That is what I need to know.

I can't think of any situation where I'd need to know the exact measurements for the sake of knowing the exact measurements. Unless I'm doing interior decorating or something. And even then...

If the rules say that meters aren't important, then I would urge you to run it as written. Don't hand out distances in meters. You don't need to be all "It's just short range, get over it!" with your players, but you can say "It's a real easy shot from here, or you can just sidle on over that way in less than one round." That's all they need to know.

We need to know precisely because this is a narrative based game. We need to visualize the scene and despite what some are saying here we visualize according to our perceptions of distance. The house across the street is about 100 feet away, that car down the road is maybe 50 yards away, that cliff looks maybe 70 feet high. Etc. This is how things are described and game rules should convert.

But honestly guys, I'm obviously wrong here so...ok point taken somehow it makes sense to you all. That's great really. Our group will do as you say, get used to it or change systems. Shame though.

We need to know precisely because this is a narrative based game.

In a narrative game, those measurements don’t exist. Hence the term “narrative game”.

We need to visualize the scene and despite what some are saying here we visualize according to our perceptions of distance. The house across the street is about 100 feet away, that car down the road is maybe 50 yards away, that cliff looks maybe 70 feet high. Etc. This is how things are described and game rules should convert.

Please show me the examples from the books where this is true. Please quote book name and page numbers.

First off, read what Darksyde said, I agree with him fully. I'm sorry you guys are struggling with these concepts, and thus not getting the most out of this RPG.

One thing I'd like to suggest is watching/listening to some let's play videos. Seriously, I really like the broker series! Pay attention to how they handle distances and the range bands. Get your players to watch them as well, and listen to how they rule on any game mechanics you have questions about. I listened to hours of this series before running my first game and it really got me ready and comfortable with the system.

We need to know precisely because this is a narrative based game.

In a narrative game, those measurements don’t exist. Hence the term “narrative game”.

We need to visualize the scene and despite what some are saying here we visualize according to our perceptions of distance. The house across the street is about 100 feet away, that car down the road is maybe 50 yards away, that cliff looks maybe 70 feet high. Etc. This is how things are described and game rules should convert.

Please show me the examples from the books where this is true. Please quote book name and page numbers.

A narrative based game may mean we don't measure precisely but we still use measurements to Guage weapon ranges, movements, explosive radii etc. We describe rather than present them physically on a map. Geeze cmon.

As to page numbers. What are you talking about? Those are real world examples of how we perceive distances. Converting them to something abstract like short range is fine but they have to be consistent.

Hmm first example he is still in gun range, close or maybe short. Second example he is way out of range, possibly even rifle range, by your description, so maybe long range or even extreme, all in In a turn. Interesting.

Ah, but the key is that both are open ended enough - but still giving enough description of the scene to visualize what the hell is going on - that the GM could say "The target is medium range". The one is the close end of medium and the other being far end of medium. The range is what you say it is.

We need to know precisely because this is a narrative based game. We need to visualize the scene and despite what some are saying here we visualize according to our perceptions of distance. The house across the street is about 100 feet away, that car down the road is maybe 50 yards away, that cliff looks maybe 70 feet high. Etc. This is how things are described and game rules should convert.

Right - and you give them the perception of distance through the narrative. For example:

"Sensing an ambush, you stumble out of the front door of the cantina into the bright noonday sun. There's a disheveled man huddled in the next door down, lighting up a death stick. There's a gunman leaning against a lightpost across the boulevard, doing his best to be nonchalant despite him obviously eyeing you up. Down at the far end of the block is a repulsortruck, two more seedy looking men at the wheel. The best avenue of escape is probably the towering, rugged cliffs, looming behind the establishment."

Everyone has a good idea how wide a two lane boulevard is, everyone has a pretty good idea how long a city block is. Disheveled smoker is at short, Nonchalant Gunman is at Medium, the Van is at Long, and the cliff is really f'ing tall. The setting has been firmly established in the mind's eye, the players now have a good idea what the setting is like and there's not a number to be seen anywhere.