*wakes up and sees Road to Legend news update*
*gets happy and excited reading the cool ideas in the news*
"so awesome, so awesome!"
*rushes on official forums to share the joy and enthusiasm*
*reads the entirety of each lengthy forum post*
"..."
*slowly backs away and quietly closes the door*
Alternating activations works really well in IA because there is an intelligence behind it, how will the app know when to activate each group?
*wakes up and sees Road to Legend news update*
*gets happy and excited reading the cool ideas in the news*
"so awesome, so awesome!"
*rushes on official forums to share the joy and enthusiasm*
*reads the entirety of each lengthy forum post*
"..."
*slowly backs away and quietly closes the door*
Yep. And again, its only a official game variant , one you can "choose" not play. The game everyone love still there and breathing. So much speculation and crying on a " game mode" that nobody even played yet ... For me, i wll be happy to bring Descent in table with a new set of rules to te st with my friends or even solo.
By the way, i love yours variants Nerdook
I had a feeling this was gonna be a pretty straight port of the co-op ruleset which is fine as I thought they were a pretty clever and fun way to play a fully co-op version of Descent but I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed that FFG couldn't find a solution to Overlord card hiccup. In co-op, skills and abilities that forced the Overlord to discard cards were completely ignored which made certain classes and heroes less effective. I was really hoping they would find a solution to this for the app because it was easily the most annoying part of the co-op experienc for me. Why would anyone take Elder Mok when he effectively has no heroic feat at all in co-op? The preview mentioned that the random bonuses for monster activations were replacing Overlord cards. Maybe whenever a game effect would cause the Overlord to discard a card, the activation bonus for the next monster group to activate is cancelled instead? I have no idea what that would do to balance but it looks like that would have to be a house rule anyway. Overall tho, looks good and I'm looking forward to giving this a try.
I like what this update had to say. I'm still very excited for the app. What's still not clear to me, and what I wish they would talk more about, is how random quests/encounters will be in the app. If you play a quest/encounter multiple times, will it be the same every time but just with different monster groups? Will it have the same kind of randomness as the co-op expansions? Or will it have even more randomness (a unique dungeon delve every time you play?!?)
I quite enjoyed the switch to alternating turns in IA. Having played heroes and OL/IP in each game numerous times I can see some merits and pitfalls for either turn variant. It will be interesting to hear from FFG regarding the reasoning they went with alternating turns, how balance is affected, what they implemented mechanically to address balance issues, etc. There is so much we don't know right now. It's such a fundamental change one can't help but think they will address it in a future pre-release article to help un-melt some minds. I have to admit that the speculation and poo-pooing of the new mechanics in relation to how they currently work with an OL, all prior to having exercised them on a game table, does seems rather pedantic if not downright pessimistic. Either way, mission accomplished FFG. My enthusiasm for D2E is peaked once again. I am shelling out money to aquire lieutenants and expansions I am behind on so I can play this new game variant with all options unlocked. Some of us REALLY love our co-op, and this has been a gigantic, glaring hole that's needed filled since day 1 which the co-op PoDs didn't go far enough to fill.
Edited by cdj0902Whaaaaaat!!! Who the hell though that alternative turns in the app will be a good idea? This now confirms Indalecio's perspective and makes it less exciting for me to use it.
Before sharing my opinion I'll modify the first post of this discussion in order to add the second news for future readers. In addition, I ask Any2cards to do the same in his so useful topic "Index of Useful Links".
That been said, here are my thoughts.
1) Whenever a new system is created, there are always interpretation issues. Oh yes, Zaltire, my friend, get ready to see posts like “Road to legend: Question about turn/activation?” or “Road to legend: Did I play this correctly?” I just hope FFG present each new concept very clear wihtout redesigning what already exists (3rd Edition is it you?).
2) In the beginning I was excited about the app because it was going to do the work on a few minutes. Now you come and tell me that after every hero turn a player must take the app and use it. In my group it means ME taking the app and put it near me, telling every time what monsters do, without the possibility of leaving it, otherwise the game will lag or stop. If that happens then I will return to the old system hahaha only I’ll play linear and clumsy… and no, I cannot afford ignoring this expansion, because I am one of the people that wants coop systems. The solution I can think is that all heroes take their turn and then I would grab the app FOR A COUPPLE OF MINUTES to activate the monsters. This reaffirms Indalecio’s fears, now the app will have a bigger presence in the table, something now I dislike. I wanted to be a support not a hero/overlord player system.
3) I share the idea alternative turns brings a more complex and strategically approach, but also I think it is awful to let this brainless system (move/attack/retreat) will be part of it. If FFG really want Descent to use this system, Why don’t they release a SKRIMISH mode for it?
4) The monsters and heroes are not designed to develop in this system, or I am the only one looking at the future problems. I think this is the strongest issue of all. For instance, it is said Mok will be useless, well I think the opposite. Will the Overlord turn be divided into monsters activation? If no, then when does the Overlord turn happens? If yes, then Mok’s hero ability will be awesome. Just imagine this, Mordog as knight, with defend, then he gets hits, recovers 1 stamina and Mok uses he’s ability, then another monster group does the same and Mordog repeates…and also does Mok’s because IT IS A NEW TURN. If Mok’s ability isn’t buffed then let’s take a look to Spawner ability in Kobolds: “Spawner: At the start of each overlord turn , place 1 minion kobold adjacent to this monster, respecting group limits”. Wow, just wow, as every monster group is an Overlord turn, then every time a monster group activates, the Spawner ability triggers; and this is for the SW:AI players out there, isn’t figure/actions economy something broken in this system? I ask because I’m new in this system and I see it can be very strong if there are objectives in play. You aren’t convince yet, ok, let’s take a look now to another ability, shall we? “Regeneration X: At the beginning of the overlord player's turn , this monster recovers X Heart.” Oh my…Sir Alric is laughing now, I can hear him from where I am. Man, I wish this could be use in Descent traditional system. Oh, oh, this one, this was something SW:IA players know and discussed, at least the people I know. Weakened condition now passes to be an extremely powerful (yet situational) condition. Heroes are tasked to kill a lieutenant, so they weaken him/her after the activation, they focus him/her (something common), however, now, the round is over, and the lieutenant still is weakened. Now, someone already issued this (we don’t know yet how to app chooses to activate a figure) that been said, let’s say the app activates the lieutenant at last in the round, that means heroes managed to hit the weakened lieutenant twice while it had the condition without that figure had the possibility to rest, once during the round he/she got weakened, and secondly during the round it activated (I hope I made this point clear). Or think it the other way, a hero gets weakened after his/her activation; then it seems that hero must activated after any other heroes next turn. I mean, I can continue with this (Air: elemental ability; Resilient: Bol’ Goreth ability; Unseen: Thief class; Undercover; Bounty Hunter class; Roganna the Shade’s Heroic Feat) the list is endless.
This is what I meant in point 1, ruling, errata, patches…Anyway, if they say all of that monster abilities conrcen only to their figure activation and not to monster activation, Mok's ability continue to be awasome.
Well, that is my perspective, I can be wrong, I don’t know how others see it.
This is an exciting development.
To have an additional way of playing this great title, and to have it as software rather than 'print and ship' co-op expansions - to have it as something that allows for frequent and easy updates and alterations as required, that may at some time include the most recent and up to date rules index, blah, blah, blah.
Any negatives that may arise (stop guessing at how bad it could be) can easily be modified and updated with minimum impact to the developers and consumers.
Who actually thinks that this app hasn't been play-tested?
Who thinks FFG haven't selected the best features/rules that they could think up?
Who thinks that the app was developed to replace any previous methods of playing the game?
Who thinks they have a right to tell FFG that they have it wrong based on nothing better than an announcement and a preview write-up, but not the actual app?
Who thinks that apps are never altered or updated to include better and/or additional ways of doing things?
Who thinks that FFG just cant make games, or cant make fun games?
I don't like coke nor agree with why Fanta was made BUT I don't criticise nor make any demands for their removal or alteration. It is FFGs game and they have the right to do anything they bloody-well want to do to it, and you have the right not to buy in to it if you don't want to. Complaining and criticising at this early stage is less than helpful, and helps to drive people away from forums like this one, as well as demotivating creative minds.
Edited by slambsozNews on the App:
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/3/30/deeper-into-the-dark/
Dang, looks like there will be perma death!!!
Let's make this clear. There is no perma death. Heroes can be knocked out as usual. What's different then? Once you are knocked out certain number of times the party loses their courage and run away from the dungeon.
Edited by Libero03Maybe it's my ignorance (I haven't played IA or currently avaible Descent co-op modules), but I'd say alternating turn order is something that's needed in this new game mode. If not, you could automate heroes actions as well:
Honestly, every OL player knows this pain of heroes just waltzing in and slaughtering whole monster group (or even two!) before even first activation. To make sure those monsters even do something such change is needed. The big question is, how will reinforcements work. If it's not more excessive then in Mists of Bilehall, I doubt we'll get situations when we have 3-4 monster groups at the same time very often. And since it's one activation per hero/monster per round, you can easily have 2-3 heroes going one after another (if there are 4 heroes and 2 groups it goes 1st hero, 1st monster group, 2nd hero, 2nd monster group, 3rd hero, 4th hero).
Have some faith. Also remember that it's very easy to add campaign specific rules that change the game completly. Even if first RtL camapign is medicore/weak because of those mechanics, future camapigns can remedy that.
What is worrying me is that the app will be very similar to PnP co-op adventures, where there is only single path of advance. This is no dungeon, it's a corridor, a tunel with doors. This strips down lots of adventure feels for me and is the biggest minus for co-op PnPs.. Am I the only one?
Finally Descent will hit the table again! Well done FFG!!!! RtL app is what we were missing to play a fully co-op dungeon crawling game and has a lot of potential for near and medium future!!! Again, WELL DONE!!!
It sounds to me with the new news post about the app that basically its an enhanced version of the POD co-ops.
The fate mechanic from pod co-ops seems like the moral mechanic and the doom mechanic is now the peril mechanic and now hidden from the heroes. I like that its taking from SWIA with the alternating order of activation.
My concern right now is will this app allow us to adjust or control in any way the difficulty as my group only enjoys playing the pod co-op when we pad the fate /doom track a bit to allow for more flexibility. Some in our group take over the turns for others when the difficulty is so high they feel they cant win unless every one plays perfectly. It becomes their job to min/max all the players turns and if someone goes against the math or logic they get upset and sometimes rage quit. But magically if the mechanics allow for errors with out taking away from success its much better.
Anyway, This app really needs the option to adjust the moral starting value or the hidden doom mechanic. An easier difficulty is the only environment where some players can coexist with the min/max types and the immersion adventuring role player types out there. There needs to be room to make mistakes and not play perfectly to succeed, unless that's what the group wants. The POD co-ops have felt to me and my group that by the rules as written are really challenging to win. And with that you feel pigeon holed into picking only the best combos of chars and archetypes etc in order to succeed. The Min/max types only care about wining and perfecting the art of making the best efficient decisions.
Having more options is always better in my opinion. If a group feels its too easy they can just turn it up a notch. But I feel it should start out on the easy side by default and not the other way around.
I guess this happened a few months ago. Beware however that some retailers might still sell the old versions (I think there is a sticker on the plastic that says that the Heirs of Blood campaign is inside the box). Also I think reselling the game with the old Shadow Rune campaign might get hard.
I bought a copy of descent last week and it came with the Heirs Of Blood Campaign. There wasn't a sticker to identify it as being the updated version, but on the back in the "Game Contents" section it says "40 Page Act I Quest guide, 32 Page Act II Quest Guide". I think the one that came with Shadow Rune campaign says "44 Page Quest Guide".
Wow so the shadow rune campaign seems like its being killed off in a way. This also makes me wonder whats the use of the hard back book now for heirs of blood if its just included for free in all new copies of descent. ...
What if you actually wanted to play the shadow rune but didn't get into the game until today. I mean I get why they might have wanted to do this since my group absolutely hated the shadow rune and going through it just one time caused my group to never want to ever play descent again after that point. lol I was the OL and still had a good time but I can see their (heroes) side of things. They won in the end but had a long run of losses back to back.
Maybe we'll see a book version of the shadow rune one day.
Best update ever.
It does seem like they are using the app to make the game more like IA.
Alternating turns, the knockout limit, increasing peril (very similar to threat), hidden information.
It's almost like the app is descent 3rd edition.
To me it feels more like the pod co-op rules and mechanics but with enhancements. Def not a 3rd edition.
What is worrying me is that the app will be very similar to PnP co-op adventures, where there is only single path of advance. This is no dungeon, it's a corridor, a tunel with doors. This strips down lots of adventure feels for me and is the biggest minus for co-op PnPs.. Am I the only one?
I agree on this, I too would like it to have multiple paths. The new article did say " While playing Road to Legend , you’ll also immediately notice that Road to Legend is able to truly simulate a feeling of tense, thrilling exploration. At the beginning of the game, only your current tile is revealed, along with any search tokens or monsters in the chamber. Other exits from the tile are closed off with doors , hiding what lies beyond."
So since they used plural I hope it will feel much more expansive. Imagine if there were multiple ways to win the quest with different directions you could take to achieve it.
Edited by oldtimerOne last thing that would be cool is keyboard shortcuts to interact with it so that I can program Voice attack to control the app via voice commands on a laptop. Imagine it being hands free and not get in the way of the action on the table.
Voice attack? This gave me an idea: why not having a sound in the app that corresponds to situation on the board?
Imagine:
Would you like that?
Other exits from the tile are closed off with doors , hiding what lies beyond."
So since they used plural I hope it will feel much more expansive. Imagine if there were multiple ways to win the quest with different directions you could take to achieve it.
I wouldn't expect too much, rooms with multiple doors doesn't necessarily mean more options for completion.
besides, this "exploration" is nothing new. it's the same way it was done in the first edition (and everyone who played that knows that a drag it could be), but I admit I think it works better with co-op and it's smaller mapsize (the POD expansions had very small layouts).
Edited by GraySo much speculation and crying on a " game mode" that nobody even played yet ...
if you played the POD expansions you played the game mode already.
Edited by GrayLooks like they have added an SW:IA thing where one hero goes, then one monster group, and then one here, and so on.
Personally, I don't believe they change the 'rounds' system. That is, a monster with regeneration will only recover with it is activated and not X amount of monster groups present.
This.
I actually feel that the you go I go turn structure is much more challenging than blow all of our cool downs at one time and mow down a bunch of helpless monsters. Nobody was asking them to shave time off the missions, were they? Nobody was saying that either way is faster than the other, were they? I am confused by that.
Having the game constantly evolve by alternating turns adds a whole other level of strategy that just isn't present in the traditional Descent format. As the OL in both games I much, much, much prefer the alternating strategy and find it to actually be quite a bit more challenging than all at once. This will in turn help make the AI more challenging. If you like playing games where you get to mindlessly blast down waves of monsters instead of having to pick your spots and adapt your game strategically turn to turn I can suggest Zombies Ate My Neighbours for the SNES.
My concern with alternating orders is how it will affect skills and abilities like the ones mentioned below. Descent was not designed with this turn structure in mind. I'm not against alternating turns being implemented as long as they've been play-tested thoroughly.
Sir, you forget yourself. Zombies Ate My Neighbors was certainly a chaotic swarm and quick reflexes could save the day but weapon choices and using the environment to mitigate being over run by said swarms was part of successfully making it to the next level. And well... it is just a rad freakin' game too!
I actually feel that the you go I go turn structure is much more challenging than blow all of our cool downs at one time and mow down a bunch of helpless monsters. Nobody was asking them to shave time off the missions, were they? Nobody was saying that either way is faster than the other, were they? I am confused by that.
Having the game constantly evolve by alternating turns adds a whole other level of strategy that just isn't present in the traditional Descent format. As the OL in both games I much, much, much prefer the alternating strategy and find it to actually be quite a bit more challenging than all at once. This will in turn help make the AI more challenging. If you like playing games where you get to mindlessly blast down waves of monsters instead of having to pick your spots and adapt your game strategically turn to turn I can suggest Zombies Ate My Neighbours for the SNES.
What excactly do you find more challanging in alternating turn-structure?
If you play Descent like what you described, you are going to lose if your oponent is just a little bit competent. If you go all in, use all your spells just to kill the "helpless" monsters your objective probably is goingt to be out of reach after the OL's turn. What you need to do is fullfill the objectives and to do that you have to coordinate your turns, which is a much less messy task if all your figures activate before the enemies activate. (Also fatigue is a much more costly resource than strain, considering how resting works.) This way tactical and strategical things are at the center of attention and Descent's skill set is built around it (which in contrast to IA's revolves much less around combat) .
With IA's alternating turn structure administrative and organisational thoughts are in the center of attention, whereas tactical and strategical thoughts take a backseat. In IA you have to deal with the problem that once you kill a miniature that was blocking the door, you need enough MPs to move onto that space, or else the next imperial group will move there, leaving you with the exact same task over and over again. Or you try to kill one group before the IP can activate them, leaving the IP with less groups, which means your 4th hero will be the last to activate this turn. I don't see any tactical or strategical finesse in these things, just administrative obviousness.
In Descent you deal with the monster-blocking problem differently. There are specific skills like the knight's Oath of Honor which enables the knight to jump over monsters if certain conditions are met (there is a hero adjacent ot the monster, you are 3 spaces within this hero and all spots in front of the monster are occupied). You need to coordinate your whole hero-party to execute this strategy to get over this monster blockage. Alternating turns would make this impossible, because well, once both spaces in front of the monster are blocked, you can just move the monster 1 space backwards.
There are a few skills that work like that and I always thought that the Descent turn structure allowed for the much more creative skills of Descent compared to the relativly cookie-cutter skills of IA.
Seeing how negativly this alternating turn-structure influenced IA (no varied objectives, heavy emphasis on killing everything, damage skills being overly usefull), I really hope this doesn't affect this coop-mode the same way. The PoD coops pulled off the varied Descent quest structure so well, I would really be disapointed if this is just a "rush through the dungeon and kill everything" coop.
edited paragraphs
I too hope we will be seeing new and interesting objective rooms. The only reason I felt the co-ops were stale was because I played the only 3 official releases constantly. Most of the objective rooms are burned into my brain at this point. I can throw that **** cauldron into the pit in my sleep with little effort (excluding really bad dice rolls).
New and varied map design and objective rooms are a welcomed addition! Yay for new content to play with the physical content I already own!
One thing which has always bothered me about Descent without an OL is that the heroes get to decide how monsters move.
Yes, an activation card or instruction popup might say, "The monster moves to the space containing the most heroes".
But what if that space is ambiguous, as in there are multiple spaces containing the most heroes. Which space is chosen?
What if there are 3 or 4 paths to that space. Which path is taken?
After a monster makes a ranged attack, say it withdraws afterwards. Where does it withdraw to?
These sorts of square-by-square decisions matter immensely in a tactics game. What if one of the choices is head and shoulders better than the others? What if one path moves through lava, or a path moves through a space adjacent to at Stalker trap token? What if the heroes have a thief which can Caltrops a monster if it chooses a specific path?
If this app is similar to the co-op, then the heroes get to choose whenever there is ambiguity, and of course, will tend to choose whatever works best for them. This shatters the illusion of an intelligent opponent, and also heavily favors certain types of heroes/classes, such as those with Blast. (monsters will stupidly clump up together all the time in co-op).
I personally try to compensate for this whenever I play co-op by pretending I'm the Overlord whenever I'm controlling the monsters and choosing what I consider to be the best possible move for them within the limitation of the activation cards. This does help keep the monsters from seeming stupid, but its still disorienting and less fun to be playing multiple sides at once. Its even worse when there is a disagreement among the players as to what the 'best' move for the Overlord would have been.
It is likely asking way too much for the app to know exactly where everything is on the map and then choose a path for monsters accordingly, so I guess this simply underscores how special Descent is in having an intelligent human opponent as your adversary. Nothing can replace this.
Nonetheless, the app is cool... The alternating turns I'm fairly neutral on. I like the constantly changing game state, but hero synergy suffers as a result. It will definitely support different party compositions and tactics than the traditional game - for better or worse!
Grey Ker for example, is far more powerful in this type of game than he is in the traditional game, as he has excellent ability to react to changing battlefield conditions.
I have to agree, no available A.I. will be able to replace the human brain. The natural balance being a human OL player can make mistakes, while the A.I. will just choose from a set pool of pre-programed options, and some times will, by chance, chose the optimal or worse choice available to it.
I do think that by expanding the available content to include all your purchased content you will find the experience more entertaining. Even a stale quest can become interesting again by changing monster groups. My group has done this with all 3 official co-ops to some interesting results. 4 Sorcerers defending that **** cauldron can be quite a bit more challenging than Flesh Moulders as my group found out.
It would be great to have an official version of this app that integrates a human OL player as well. The more ways to play the better I say!
*wakes up and sees Road to Legend news update*
*gets happy and excited reading the cool ideas in the news*
"so awesome, so awesome!"
*rushes on official forums to share the joy and enthusiasm*
*reads the entirety of each lengthy forum post*
"..."
*slowly backs away and quietly closes the door*
A thousand times this! Even with my own concerns, I have to say I'm 99% excited for this new game mode and the opportunity to try it free before having to purchase additional campaigns. Sounds like a sweet deal to me!
I quite enjoyed the switch to alternating turns in IA. Having played heroes and OL/IP in each game numerous times I can see some merits and pitfalls for either turn variant. It will be interesting to hear from FFG regarding the reasoning they went with alternating turns, how balance is affected, what they implemented mechanically to address balance issues, etc. There is so much we don't know right now. It's such a fundamental change one can't help but think they will address it in a future pre-release article to help un-melt some minds. I have to admit that the speculation and poo-pooing of the new mechanics in relation to how they currently work with an OL, all prior to having exercised them on a game table, does seems rather pedantic if not downright pessimistic. Either way, mission accomplished FFG. My enthusiasm for D2E is peaked once again. I am shelling out money to aquire lieutenants and expansions I am behind on so I can play this new game variant with all options unlocked. Some of us REALLY love our co-op, and this has been a gigantic, glaring hole that's needed filled since day 1 which the co-op PoDs didn't go far enough to fill.
My sentiments exactly!
What is worrying me is that the app will be very similar to PnP co-op adventures, where there is only single path of advance. This is no dungeon, it's a corridor, a tunel with doors. This strips down lots of adventure feels for me and is the biggest minus for co-op PnPs.. Am I the only one?
I agree on this, I too would like it to have multiple paths. The new article did say " While playing Road to Legend , you’ll also immediately notice that Road to Legend is able to truly simulate a feeling of tense, thrilling exploration. At the beginning of the game, only your current tile is revealed, along with any search tokens or monsters in the chamber. Other exits from the tile are closed off with doors , hiding what lies beyond."
So since they used plural I hope it will feel much more expansive. Imagine if there were multiple ways to win the quest with different directions you could take to achieve it.
And the ever looming dead ends! really hoping for interesting may layouts... would it be too much to ask for alternating or random map layouts to keep replays of quests fresh?
Personally, I don't believe they change the 'rounds' system. That is, a monster with regeneration will only recover with it is activated and not X amount of monster groups present.
This.
My only big concern regarding this new game mode is the IA Alternating Turns. If they keep the round structure the same then I don't think we have to worry too much about certain hero/monster abilities not translating well.
I think that FFG would play test this and there won't be some massive exploit with round effects. It's obvious that FFG likes the tweaks they made to the Descent system for IA and it was well received by the masses, so they will forge ahead and if you don't like it well you don't have to use the app that is the beauty of it. It's hard to discuss and argue this mechanic on a Descent forum where the majority of people have not played IA to the extent that maybe some of us IA first, Descent second, people have. But from someone who has played both I can tell you that I think the IA system is superior in both mission progression and strategic challenges. And we can argue this until we are blue in the face, but that is how I feel. And I think that MOST people who have given IA a fighting chance and play it regularly will agree with me. I know it is hard to accept change, but I highly doubt FFG will leave you high and dry with certain abilities unexplained, there is always a way to fix things. BUT, there will definitely be challenges against an automated AI, one of which like others have said being well which space do I move to if it just says to move 4 spaces away? This is something that I am sure FFG is working on, reading about here on the forums and is play testing to tell us about in a future update.
The sky is not falling, there is still a lot they need to reveal about this app before it launches and I will wait to pass my judgement until then. It is definitely fine to speculate and raise concerns, but I would hold off on damning it to the abyss based off your interpretation of an un explained rule or mechanic.
Edited by FrogTrigger