A Death World character can select Jaded as a part of his Home World package. This prevents him from taking Insanity Points (IP) from any source that is not a Terror of the Warp. From reading over the rules for a description of what a Terror of the Warp is, I've seen that any test against such that delivers IP is also going to grant Corruption Points (CP). Since this appears to be the only way for a Jaded character to gain IP, how can such a character start with IP but no CP? Are there other sources of IP that Jaded doesn't protect from that don't inflict CP?

As an example, consider a Death World character that selects Jaded and takes the Stubjack Birthright which gives him 1d5 IP. Would it be reasonable for this character to take 1d5 CP instead of the IP?

HappyDaze said:

Nope. Mainly because it would be insane to assume that all the talents granted from homeworld selection actually arise already from birth. The Origin Path isn't in a chronological order at all times, so it would be safe to assume that the reason why Death Worlders are Jaded is because they've seen some pretty f**ked up **** during their upbringing and matured into becoming jaded individuals. And since Stubjack is a birthright, it described that it was something that was a part of the PC's upbringing, so any corruption and insanity points gained could well have happened long before the PC actually became jaded.

Also, there's nothing saying that only fear tests would grant a PC Insanity Points. Think of it in CoC terms, where you can lose sanity just by reading a "scary book", and it doesn't matter how jaded or strong willed you are, it will erode your sanity anyway.

Blame a pskyer.

Psychic phenomena table, 66-68: Shadow of the Warp gives insanity but not corruption. The peri vice versa gives more insanity.

I also note that the peril Rending the Veil specifics that it is a fear test with warp shock. That suggests that the other phenomena/perils that cause fear tests aren't warp shock. Since they aren't warp shock they won't cause corruption, but they are still terrors of the warp, meaning jaded doesn't make you immune.

Replace Stubjack with Dark Voyage (1d5 IP but no CP) - something that is certainly undertaken after you've grown-up and left the Death World (after you've become Jaded). Does your argument still stand?

As near as I can tell, some implants and mutations are all that fall into this category (maybe - as written a Jaded character may not take IP from them either since neither of these sources is a Terror of the Warp), and neither of these apply to the IP from Dark Voyage.

Most IP comes from Fear Tests, and Jaded characters are immune to all Fear tests except those caused by Terrors of the Warp - which always inflict CP as well. Please give me some examples of things in the game that provide IP without CP that Jaded would not provide protection from.

I may have to go with the 'blame a psyker' option. It's one of the few sources of IP without CP that comes as a Terror of the Warp, but it's still a stretch for some Origin Path options (like Zealot - Unnerving Clarity).

Taking the Jaded character I started my example with, we have a Death World character that was born into the life of a mercenary Stubjack. Rather than the usual clients, he was a bad boy Renegade - Dark Visionary that wanted to be a pirate. After a Dark Voyage ends with his employers brutalizing his people, he leaves the pirate life motivated by Vengeance and now serves as an Archmilitant.

Along the way, this character will pick up 3d5+1 IP in his Origin Path, all of which are apparently caused by something that bypasses Jaded - like a Terror of the Warp - but none of which cause even a single CP. Also note that this character has no mutations or implants that might be a source of IP. So, what qualifies as a Terror of the Warp, and how did this character get so many IP without a single CP?

Daemons? Certainly. You'll get CP here.

Warp Incursions? Oh yeah. CP time again.

Psyker (and Navigator) Powers? Sure. Some with CP, some without.

Tainted Lore/Goods? Maybe. CP is almost certain if it gives IP.

Mutation/Implants? Not sure, but not relevant for this character.

HappyDaze said:

Nobody said that the psyker had to survive giving you the insanity points.

Then there is insanity coming from torture. Or something self-inflicted. For example, while meditation is beneficial in moderation, this link suggests that it might have some risks of mental harm. Especially if someone leaps right to the really intense training.

Think of how many crazy cults you have heard about in the news. If your character is/was a member of something similar, that would explain a lot.

Or there could be a genetic cause for it.

Don't look for game mechanics for the explanation. Look at the causes of mental illness in the real world.

HappyDaze said:

Indeed it does. Talents from certain home worlds could also imply a certain predisposition of people from that home world, meaning that the Jaded talent could have happened pretty much anywhere down the line.

You're just making your life harder if you're trying to apply a chronological order to all the aspects of the Origin Path.

HappyDaze said:

the keyword here is "most".

There are pleny of examples that will give insaity points without coming from fear tests. Check over Disciples of the Dark Gods and certain "forbidden texts" for instance. No fear test, yet a PC reading them suffer a chance of acquiring fate points. Then of course there's the psykers. Then there's the very simple but effective case of GM FIAT!

A GM might feel that certain situations or phenomena will grant some IP for certain characters, without fear tests being involved.

Then we have basic psychology, while not a really exact or accurate science, it has got some good theories about mental disorders and how they grow in human beings. Meaning that it would be pretty improbable to assume that the only ways for a person to get insanity points is through "scary situations". Fear is a common aspect to induce a mental trauma in a person, but far from the only aspect.

the keyword here is "most".

There are pleny of examples that will give insaity points without coming from fear tests. Check over Disciples of the Dark Gods and certain "forbidden texts" for instance. No fear test, yet a PC reading them suffer a chance of acquiring fate points. Then of course there's the psykers. Then there's the very simple but effective case of GM FIAT!

A GM might feel that certain situations or phenomena will grant some IP for certain characters, without fear tests being involved.

Then we have basic psychology, while not a really exact or accurate science, it has got some good theories about mental disorders and how they grow in human beings. Meaning that it would be pretty improbable to assume that the only ways for a person to get insanity points is through "scary situations". Fear is a common aspect to induce a mental trauma in a person, but far from the only aspect.

This is all largely irrelevant since Jaded doesn't just block IP from Fear Tests - it blocks all IP from anything that is not a Terror of the Warp, which means that 'basic psychology' and even most uses of GM fiat are bull cop-outs if you're trying to use them to give IP to a Jaded character.

HappyDaze said:

Now you're the bullshitter here. I'll quote:

Jaded

The Explorer's wide travels have shown both wonders and horrors beyond the ken of most. The galaxy has thrown it's worst at him and he has yet to flinch. Outrageous events, from death's horrific visage to xenos abominations, will not cause Insanity Points or Fear Tests. Terrors of the Warp still affect the character normally.

From what I can see, there's a varied spectrum of aspects between "death's horrific visage" and "xenos abominations", and exactly what constitutes as an "outrageous event" is largely up for interpretation. Also if we are to take the written passage at face value here, it doesn't say anything about protection from insanity points by reading forbidden texts, it only concerns something in between "Death's horrific visage" and "xenos abominations", and it is ENTIRELY up to the GM if he or she wants to include the aspects which could cause insanity within that spectrum.

So no, GM fiat in this case are NOT "bull cop-outs", but rather perfectly justifiable. Mainly because they didn't even bother to go into exact detail about what aspects a Jaded character would be protected from Insanity points or not.

The Jaded character might not flinch by seeing a Tyranid lictor, but if that character is subjected to torture of a Dark Eldar Haemonculus and the Willpower just doesn't hold up, insanity will ensure, regardless of how jaded or not that character is...

HappyDaze said:

Since when is it a cop-out to be using the rules as they are written ?

The RAW states that a character can have insanity points without corruption even if they were jaded from a young age. All our talk of psychology, forbidden texts, etc is just attempting to justify the RAW.

The only cop-out I see is if someone is trying to weasel out of their starting insanity.

Besides, what is the lore explanation of how jaded works ?

My guess is that the character has seen so many horrific things that he is used to seeing them. But seeing the results of horrific torture and experiencing it yourself are two very different things.

HappyDaze said:

Yes it does, I quoted the talent word by word from the rulebook itself. Perhaps its not the way YOU'RE reading it, but I can't really be responsible for your personal interpetation now can I?

Varnias Tybalt said:

If it is an 'outrageous event' that is not caused by a 'Terror of the Warp' then Jaded shields the character from taking IP from it. The terms 'outrageous event' is not well defined other than a reference to death's visage and xenos, and neither is 'Terror of the Warp' all that clear for that matter. So tell me, how do you read it, and under your reading, what constitutes an outrageous event per the book?

My guess is that the character has seen so many horrific things that he is used to seeing them. But seeing the results of horrific torture and experiencing it yourself are two very different things.

Using this logic, then Jaded will often be useless. What you suggest is that Jaded is only helpful if you witness something happening to others, not if it happens to you. A Genestealer rends your best friend apart - since you're Jaded, it doesn't faze you a bit. But if that same Genestealer charges at you, Jaded offers no protection. I don't think it's meant to work like that.

HappyDaze said:

That's the thing isn't it, you have to ask me. And since you are asking me, that pretty much goes to show that it is up for interpretation so far, meaning that GM fiat in this case is NOT a "bull cop-out" like you tried to claim it was.

HappyDaze said:

Actually, Jaded and Nerves of Steel are the talents considered to be the lowest ranking talents that influence the psychology of the character. In all the Dark Heresy careerpaths it is usually Jaded or Nerves of Steel that comes earliest, with the good stuff like Fearless or Rite of Pure Thought coming in later on. So I wouldn' be surprised if it is meant to be quite limited.

Also when you think about it, it does make sense. Fearless characters might not fear for their own lives (hey actually have to roll WP-tests to retreat from combat), Jaded characters however still have to. They might not care much for what happens to their fellow man, but even Jaded characters can be pinned and are still ruled by a survival instinct.

Varnias Tybalt said:

You're avoiding the question: What constitutes an outrageous event per the book?

Less bull and more straight answers if you please.

I personally side with "The exact definition is up to the GM".

Why not email for clarification or whatever, they still do that, right?

HappyDaze said:

I gave you a straight answer. You might considering cutting your lousy attitude.

The book DOESN'T HAVE a proper descritpion for an "outrageous event" other than the two listed under the Jaded talent. HENCE IT IS ENTIRELY UP TO THE GM TO DECIDE!

There, I highlighted the point with caps. If you still miss it then there's really no helping you...

Nice tantrum there buddy. I'd have to say you're as guilty of flinging mud as I.

However, I will thank you for admitting that your interpretation is no more correct nor supported by the rules than the position I held despie your earlier rantings.

HappyDaze said:

It wasn't a tantrum, you just displayed a clear lack of understanding, so I thought it might help you if i highlighted the gist of the point I tried to get across.

Also, I haven't ranted at all, nor have I ever had the need to "admit" anything, I was pretty adamant from the start about my position in saying that it all bottles down to individual GM interpretation.

You're the one who called such varied interpretation as a "bull cop-out", remember?

Got to agree with Varnias here (funny thing... in 50% of all threads I vehemently disagree with him and in the rest I'm completely in agreement. Meh.). There are quite a few sources of Insanity that are not related to pure sensory input, which is all Jaded protects from.

As near as I can tell, some implants and mutations are all that fall into this category (maybe - as written a Jaded character may not take IP from them either since neither of these sources is a Terror of the Warp), and neither of these apply to the IP from Dark Voyage.

Er... mutations are to a relatively large degree inflicted by the forces of Chaos, aka Terrors of the Warp. As for implants... well, they're drilling holes in your head and wire some stuff into your central nervous system. With the AdMech being the kind and loving people they are, I really can't see how that could inflict Insanity Points.

The GM always has last say. That having been said the way it is written it seems to give a fairly broad blanket of protection against IP not coming from warp related sources. So I would encourage the GM to only award them in extreme cases, prolonged torture, a botched cybernetic implant that dealt with the brain, etc.

As to mutation and corruption points.. We had one character (each player rolled up 2 so we could get all the classes in the group) who took tainted:mutant path. For fun he decided to roll randomly.. yep double zeros, so now we have a hell spawn with zero corruption points (after he rolled hell spawn he purposefully avoided them for the rest of his character gen just to see if he could).

Hilarity ensued, and continues to do so.

llsoth said:

Also, some scenarios actually include segments that will grant insanity points without the source being either a psychic, mundane or warp related phenomena.

To illustrate this, I'll draw a parallel to Stargate SG-1. Colonel O'Neill was once grabbed by this Ancient knowledge computer that implanted all their accumulated knowledge into his brain. But the thing is that human brains are too limited to be able to cope with such a massive surge of information, so his mental state began to gradually decline.

In dark heresy, this would certainly have granted Insanity Points, but the source was neither from a fear test, or necessarily warp related, nor something that the Jaded talent would protect against. It doesn't matter if you're "used to" seeing outrageous stuff, if your brain is too limited and uncompatible with events such as this, you will go crazy... Or perhaps everyone else is really crazy and you're the only one who have been granted with true clarity of vision, but to everyone else you will still seem pretty insane because your brain has been re-programmed to work in a way that it wasn't designed. Hence you will recieve insanity points.

llsoth said:

Well, the warp works in mysterious ways. Perhaps it was only that characters corporeal flesh that was tainted by the warp, but his soul was strong enough to endure (after all, corruption points first and foremost afflict the soul of the character, and then that corruption of the soul proceeds to warp the characters body to fit his tainted soul better).

Think Quasimodo from The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Fate (or possibly the warp, we can't be sure) deformed his body from birth, but despite his awful appearance he was a more decent person than most normal looking people.

However, as the GM I'd probably fiat the Hellspawn result on the mutation table for a tainted PC. Becoming a wyrdling or having a ravaged body can be dealt with, because that person would still be a mutant. Hellspawn on the other hand makes him or her daemonic and it would make him/her too much of a pariah to be able to function at all with a group of normal people. It would be like the group had a pet bloodletter or a pet plaguebearer. It's just not gonna happen aboard a Rogue Trader vessel unless the entire crew and all the PC's consists of heretics and chaos worshippers...

Happy Daze:

you're being excessively broad in your read of it.

Essentially, it implies to me that you're immune to scenes of gore, horrific monsters, and dead or decaying bodies, and the resultant fear and insanity points, except when terrors of the warp are the trigger.

It says absolutely nothing about other sources, such as psychic effects, drug overdoses, critical wounds, etc. Sure, you won't be afraid of the hallucinatory monsters in a drug overdose, but you can still be driven insane by it. (One of the most deranged guys I ever met was a serious acid head. Absolutely scared of nothing. But totally insane. Eventually committed suicide because he just couldn't get high enough any more.)

Since it doesn't state that it grants immunity to Insanity points from CGen, it's not going to protect from that.

You whingeing about people disagreeing with your desired interpretation simply makes you look petulant, immature, and munchkinish.