A tournament is happening this upcoming weekend, just about the same time as Wave 8 will be available for the first time (some will even buy the miniature there). I'm trying to ward off questions before they even pop up, one of which goes with an assumption that I am making:

Player A has a Y-Wing with title and TLT

Player B has Dengar and has the initiative

Player A attacks Dengar and triggers his ability (after defending), but also, at the same time, triggers the Y-Wing's ability to fire with his secondary weapon (after attacking). Dengar fires first (thanks to his initiative) and destroys the Y-Wing, but the ability of the Y-Wing was still triggered.

In the rules reference, page 8, card abilities, it states: "When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are card abilities whose effects have already been triggered and specify a time when the effect ends, such as “until the end of the Combat phase.”"

Does this means that despite being destroyed, the Y-Wing still gets to finish its attack and fire its twin laser turret?

You've got two abilities triggering at the same time, so initiative dictates who goes first. So in this example, Dengar gets his counter-attack in and destroys the Y-wing. But the BTL-A4 title ability has still been triggered, but only delayed by Dengar's initiative, so the Y-wing does get to "immediately perform an attack with a <turret> secondary weapon". And if that happens to be a TLT, then that's what you attack with.

The same would apply to a TIE/D Defender shooting at Dengar with a cannon, correct? TIE/D would trigger so the Defender would get to hit Dengar with the primary despite having been killed by Dengar's counter-attack.

The same would apply to a TIE/D Defender shooting at Dengar with a cannon, correct? TIE/D would trigger so the Defender would get to hit Dengar with the primary despite having been killed by Dengar's counter-attack.

Absolutely. There's no difference at all.

Thank you!

Not sure about this. There is no definite attack that you get to perform. The card states:

After you perform a primary weapon attack, you may immediately perform an attack with a Turret secondary weapon.

It says you MAY so there is no guarantee and since you are dead it would appear that you MAY NOT attack with a secondary weapon.

Not sure about this. There is no definite attack that you get to perform. The card states:

After you perform a primary weapon attack, you may immediately perform an attack with a Turret secondary weapon.

It says you MAY so there is no guarantee and since you are dead it would appear that you MAY NOT attack with a secondary weapon.

Yes there is an attack. You've just performed a primary attack, and declare that you're going to use the BTL-A4 title to perform a turret secondary attack. At this point, your opponent (with Dengar) declares he is going to use his ability to attack you back. Both abilities/effects have now been triggered, and have exactly the same timing point, so Initiative decides who gets to go first. Both abilities/effects must be resolved as they've been triggered. If Dengar kills the Y-wing, it still gets to finish resolving the BTL-A4 triggered attack.

If Dengar didn't have Initiative, would the Y-wing get it's BTL-A4 attack? Of course it would. But the same timing conflict would still apply, only the other way around.

More generally, does Dengar's ability count as "triggered" if he is shot and killed? Does he get to fire back before being removed?

What if he's the same Pilot Skill as the ship that just killed him. If he has the initiative and has already fired, if return fire kills him can his ability trigger?

Is it possible that the "immediately" on the BTL takes precedence over the "after defending" on Dengar?

More generally, does Dengar's ability count as "triggered" if he is shot and killed? Does he get to fire back before being removed?

What if he's the same Pilot Skill as the ship that just killed him. If he has the initiative and has already fired, if return fire kills him can his ability trigger?

If Dengar has lower or higher PS, his effect doesn't trigger because he is removed from play when he has damage cards equal to his hull value (TFA Rules, p 10)

Otherwise, the Simultaneous Attack Rule applies: (TFA Rules, P17)

If he has initiative, he is removed from play as above because his opportunity to attack has passed (first bullet point)

If he does not have initiative, his ability does trigger because he stays on the board until his opportunity to attack (second bullet point)

Yeah that seems very reasonable interpretation.

I think (to play devil's advocate) the confounding quotes are this:

"When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are card abilities whose effects have already been triggered and specify a time when the effect ends, such as “until the end of the Combat phase.” (p8 rules reference)

I think you can argue that Dengar's card has been triggered by defending, then the question then is more about the specified time. I'm not sure it qualifies as an ongoing effect.

And regarding simultaneous attacking:

"After a ship has resolved its opportunity to attack, before it is destroyed, it can resolve any abilities that trigger after performing an attack." (p17 rules reference)

This suggests that triggered effects do happen before being removed. Now it does only allow for attacker's triggered effects but it suggests a precedent at least.

Now I've typed it out I don't think either of these points refute your conclusion. I think I'll play it the way you suggest, if nothing else it is the most conservative conclusion. I suspect a future FAQ may well say that Dengar's ability does work during a simultaneous attack (either way around), but the rules text doesn't quite say it.

Cheers!

Your page 8 reference is a curiosity. Now we are down to word picking - that rule says: "and specify a time when the effect ends", and Dengar's ability doesn't specify when the effect ends, but when it starts (after defending).

The simultaneous attack rule covers the defender already: defenders who have not had their opportunity to attack are not removed from the board, so their abilities stay active until they do.

Is it possible that the "immediately" on the BTL takes precedence over the "after defending" on Dengar?

More generally, does Dengar's ability count as "triggered" if he is shot and killed? Does he get to fire back before being removed?

What if he's the same Pilot Skill as the ship that just killed him. If he has the initiative and has already fired, if return fire kills him can his ability trigger?

If Dengar has lower or higher PS, his effect doesn't trigger because he is removed from play when he has damage cards equal to his hull value (TFA Rules, p 10)

Otherwise, the Simultaneous Attack Rule applies: (TFA Rules, P17)

If he has initiative, he is removed from play as above because his opportunity to attack has passed (first bullet point)

If he does not have initiative, his ability does trigger because he stays on the board until his opportunity to attack (second bullet point)

Dengar's ability has absolutly nothing to do with PS. You just wrote about only case that is clear by the rules.

The rules also state that ship is not removed until he triggers all of his effects (aka. decimator going to 15 dmg cards with gunner/vader combo).

Now we are back to "does he have time to trigger his ability?" I say yea, as we discussed with some troll about tel trevura ability some time ago, timing would be:

Attacker rolls

Defender rolls

Result

Deal dmg

<now is the time window for the ability to trigger as the defending just finished>

if hull == dmg cards >destroying ship rule triggers

<destroying ship rule is delayed by triggered ability>

You need to take notice about, that by the rules destroying a ship is not a part of attack. There is separate rule that triggers if there is enough damage cards AFTERWARDS.

Is it possible that the "immediately" on the BTL takes precedence over the "after defending" on Dengar?

More generally, does Dengar's ability count as "triggered" if he is shot and killed? Does he get to fire back before being removed?

What if he's the same Pilot Skill as the ship that just killed him. If he has the initiative and has already fired, if return fire kills him can his ability trigger?

If Dengar has lower or higher PS, his effect doesn't trigger because he is removed from play when he has damage cards equal to his hull value (TFA Rules, p 10)

Otherwise, the Simultaneous Attack Rule applies: (TFA Rules, P17)

If he has initiative, he is removed from play as above because his opportunity to attack has passed (first bullet point)

If he does not have initiative, his ability does trigger because he stays on the board until his opportunity to attack (second bullet point)

Dengar's ability has absolutly nothing to do with PS. You just wrote about only case that is clear by the rules.

The rules also state that ship is not removed until he triggers all of his effects (aka. decimator going to 15 dmg cards with gunner/vader combo).

Now we are back to "does he have time to trigger his ability?" I say yea, as we discussed with some troll about tel trevura ability some time ago, timing would be:

Attacker rolls

Defender rolls

Result

Deal dmg

<now is the time window for the ability to trigger as the defending just finished>

if hull == dmg cards >destroying ship rule triggers

<destroying ship rule is delayed by triggered ability>

You need to take notice about, that by the rules destroying a ship is not a part of attack. There is separate rule that triggers if there is enough damage cards AFTERWARDS.

Actually, I beg to differ on the timing on this.

Page 9, under Damage states:

"During the “Deal Damage” step of an attack, a ship suffers one damage for each uncanceled <boom> result and one critical damage for each uncanceled <kaboom> result."

It goes on to say:

"If a ship has a number of Damage cards equal to its hull value, it is destroyed."

Now it has been established that the attack is all seven steps, and any ability such as "after attacking" or "after defending" triggers once the attack is complete. There's nothing in there that says to interrupt the imminent destruction to check if a card ability might trigger. It appears to me that destruction is most definitely within the time frame of Step 7 - Deal damage, and still during the attack.

Furthermore, page 8, under Card Abilities states:

"When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are card abilities whose effects have already been triggered and specify a time when the effect ends, such as “until the end of the Combat phase.”

To me it seems Dengar's destruction happens during the attack and before he can trigger his ability which triggers after the attack has been resolved ("after defending" in his case). I think he still needs a hull point left in order to be able to use his ability, otherwise he's gone.

There has been so much debate over this very scenario lately, that I'm surprised no one has emailed FFG for further clarification.

There has been so much debate over this very scenario lately, that I'm surprised no one has emailed FFG for further clarification.

I actually have, but haven't heard anything back...

If someone else wants to throw in another to increase our odds, it certainly wouldn't hurt.

Your page 8 reference is a curiosity. Now we are down to word picking - that rule says: "and specify a time when the effect ends", and Dengar's ability doesn't specify when the effect ends, but when it starts (after defending).

I think that only applies to something like Torkil Mux. "At the end of the Activation phase, choose 1 enemy ship at Range 1-2. Until the end of the Combat phase, treat that ship's pilot skill value as "0"."

So it is an ability that is activated and is an ongoing effect (you can't kill Torkil and recover your pilot skill this turn - which could be really weird as a ship could skip it's chance to attack that way). I don't think Dengar's ability has a specific end time so it doesn't qualify.

So I think the question is this:

Does it go:

1) Attack

2) Deal Damage

3) Trigger "after defending" effects

4) Death?

Or

1) Attack

2) Deal Damage

3) Death?

4) Trigger "after defending" effects

Another question .. Dengar is attacked by a tlt.. can he trigger after the first attack, or does he have to wait until after the second .. would be nice to destroy a tlt carrier before the second attack .. sorry if I missed this somewhere already ..

Another thought on Dengar .. another ship with same ps destroys Dengar .. does he get both his retaliation attack and his regular attack before he is gone.. I'm thinking he would

Another question .. Dengar is attacked by a tlt.. can he trigger after the first attack, or does he have to wait until after the second .. would be nice to destroy a tlt carrier before the second attack .. sorry if I missed this somewhere already ..

He can trigger after the first attack, but if he destroys the ship, it still won't stop the second attack from the TLT as that has been triggered and both attacks must be resolved.

Another thought on Dengar .. another ship with same ps destroys Dengar .. does he get both his retaliation attack and his regular attack before he is gone.. I'm thinking he would

This one is possibly still up for debate.

If he takes his regular attack first, he's now skipped his trigger point for his counter-attack and cannot take that next, so one attack only before being removed from the play area.

If he takes his counter-attack first (as triggered), then some are arguing that that attack counts as his "opportunity to attack" for the sake of the Simultaneous Attack rule and he's removed as soon as that's resolved, so again, one attack only before being removed from the play area.

This particular scenario may need FFG clarification.