To be fair, the first Bayformers movie is pretty okay, but people seem to want to forget that because of the garbage sequels. Not perfect, not great, but pretty okay.

I fell asleep during Michael Bay's first Transformers film.

I wasn't the only one, either.

Watched it on the plane. Got bored halfway and switched to Spongebob Squarepants.

"Better than the prequels" remains a low bar I'm not sure is a legitimate argument in anything's favor.

*coughs* I think a couple of the Rebels arcs are better than Episode 7...

That's a pretty low bar; it was an entertaining movie to be sure, but as to being a decent film it's a lot closer to the Bay Transformers movie.

To be fair, the first Bayformers movie is pretty okay, but people seem to want to forget that because of the garbage sequels. Not perfect, not great, but pretty okay.

The first Bayformers was pretty ok like the first Star Trek or TFA was pretty ok. And then it got a bunch of pretty ok sequels. And that was the moment when people started to get angry, because they accepted pretty ok for the first, but expected better for the sequels which are just as good or bad as the first one.

The cinematography of VII is way above anything Bay (and the school of cinema he spawned) has ever done. It was refreshing to see a movie that wasn't like "Ohhh obvious fake CG explosions, lets show them from 70.000 different angles!" TFA, despite its flaws, shows a lot of potential.

Cinematography was indeed way better. Though the plot was just running along the bay formula in very, very predictable paths. Well, or any young hero's + old mentor for the rescue story of the last ~30 or so years of hollywood cinema. But hey, at least the female was the lead this time, so something "new" and completely irrelevant to the formula added. ;-)

TBF, it wasn't running along the Bay formula so much as Bay and it were both running along several MUCH older formulae, which not least Star Wars ep IV also followed.

Abrams wasn't copying Bay, he was copying Star Wars, is what I'm saying.

It's not like I was saying something else.

What stands is that the formula is getting old. No matter if Michael "explosions" Bay or JJ "lens flares" Abrams.

I don't get how people complain about a predictable plot in Star Wars, when the "big twist" in EPV is that Darth Vader is Lukes father. Star Wars has always been formulaic and was carried by good executution, characters and setting. I don't say you can't dislike EPVII. If the characters didn't resonate with you there is nothing that can be done about it, but please don't make up pseudo-objective nonesense reasons for it.

Maybe "it has been always been that way" is not the best base for "don't complain about it". ;-)

In Contest that we get these days every year a bunch of "well executed" movies with formula, Michal Bay being one of the most prominent film makers to keep pushing this, it kind of understandable that people get tired of it.

Besides that, VII is not only using the formula, but playing as well homage to IV by replicating a lot of scenes directly. Still remake is for sure not fitting, they deviate on purpose with the antagonist. Instead of dark father we get this time angsty millenial kid. They might do something interesting with this in the next one, even when this decision lead to problem of a weak antagonist in VII. Which would btw be another variation of the formula which was popularized by Bay (I am megatron, I am megatron, I am megatron …), a weak Antagonist which are just there to give a reason for explosions.

I don't get how people complain about a predictable plot in Star Wars, when the "big twist" in EPV is that Darth Vader is Lukes father.

If you are refering to Dutch/German word for father, it's a coincidence, Vader wasn't meant to be Luke's father back in ANH.

The only name of relevance is that of Luke Starkiller, which is obviously George Lucas making an angry self-insertion (hey, he was even supposed to be studying to be an archaeologist, just like a certain film director before he dropped out and took up cinema). Leia was originally Luke's cousin and the daughter of Owen and Beru. In the nearly-final draft of ROTJ, Owen was supposed to be Obi-Wan's brother. Because ROTJ was a family movie, they did not take the obvious route out - that Luke's mother was impregnated by someone not her husband.

No story starts out fully fleshed out, especially something as complex as making a movie.

Frankly, keeping Luke on the farm where Anakin's mother lived is one of the most idiotic plot points of Star Wars. And called him Skywalker instead of Lars. One that they thankfully did not repeat for Rey. Hey! Maybe her parents were just drug addicts who sold her to pay off debts!

Laugh at Kylo Ren all you want, but you can certainly picture him showing up at the Lars with a shuttle full of dead sandpeople as a Boonta Eve present. That would be one awkward family dinner.

I don't get how people complain about a predictable plot in Star Wars, when the "big twist" in EPV is that Darth Vader is Lukes father. Star Wars has always been formulaic and was carried by good executution, characters and setting. I don't say you can't dislike EPVII. If the characters didn't resonate with you there is nothing that can be done about it, but please don't make up pseudo-objective nonesense reasons for it.

Maybe "it has been always been that way" is not the best base for "don't complain about it". ;-)

In Contest that we get these days every year a bunch of "well executed" movies with formula, Michal Bay being one of the most prominent film makers to keep pushing this, it kind of understandable that people get tired of it.

I do get the impression that Star Wars might not be the right franchise for you. A huge part of its charm is its "pulpiness", sticking to a formula is very much apropriate.

BTW, Pulp Fiction is a disney film.

They just use the Disney brand for different movies than they would use something like miramax or touchstone for.

I don't get how people complain about a predictable plot in Star Wars, when the "big twist" in EPV is that Darth Vader is Lukes father. Star Wars has always been formulaic and was carried by good executution, characters and setting. I don't say you can't dislike EPVII. If the characters didn't resonate with you there is nothing that can be done about it, but please don't make up pseudo-objective nonesense reasons for it.

Maybe "it has been always been that way" is not the best base for "don't complain about it". ;-)

In Contest that we get these days every year a bunch of "well executed" movies with formula, Michal Bay being one of the most prominent film makers to keep pushing this, it kind of understandable that people get tired of it.

I do get the impression that Star Wars might not be the right franchise for you. A huge part of its charm is its "pulpiness", sticking to a formula is very much apropriate.

I get the impression that you use that phrase to dismiss anything negative said about your object of fandom ;-)

Formulas were indeed part of the original trilogy, It is full of them, it is full of scenes which were translated nearly 1 to 1 from one movie to another, from one setting into another. The thing about the OT is that it used elements from literally everywhere. A kaleidoscope from ideas to create something distinctive new and brilliant.

And this imho a big difference to VII, which is constantly jerking off to its own self-references and added dash of the most boring new formula of hollywood bull. Well at least I think the Bay formula changes are indeed new. And btw, I think Michael Bay is brilliant, I just don't to watch his movies. They are not for me.

Grognard noun A person who only enjoys the older version of a given wargame, even when there are newer versions available. Origin: French, from grognar (to grumble) + ard. Tim is such a grognard, he'll never stop playing first edition AD&D.

Usually has a negative connotation, as in someone who's so stuck in their ways that even if a newer version is BETTER (such as D&D5e versus 2e) they will refuse to change over out of spite and find reasons that the new version is somehow 'worse'. It also extends to other media as well, and I think it's particularly appropriate here.

You're being a grognard about Star Wars, folks, and especially TFA - and honestly, a lot of the same objections you raise about TFA I remember hearing from the mouth of Alec Guinness, ya know, the guy who played Obi-Wan? He HATED Star Wars, thought it was hokey and stupid, and was a genuine cruel jerk about the whole thing. Telling a fan, "I'll give you my autograph if you promise never to watch Star Wars again"? What an ass.

And... he wasn't too far wrong. Star Wars IS hokey. It's a cobbled-together story with elements stolen from a ton of different sources and genuinely silly names. A mystical power called the FORCE? The loner is named Han SOLO, how clever Lucas. And so on, so on...

But it has heart, and so does the newest version - whether you like it or not. It does speak to people, and uses the classic hero's journey just as intentionally as the last set of movies. It changes the characters around to refresh the cycle, and the fact that it has the older characters who've been through their journey as the wise elders in this one is just the right touch of reminding us that it's a cycle, a continuous loop with newer characters replacing the older. Continuity, that's the word.

But... I'm not going to convince you. A lot of the folks I've met decided to hate the movie as they were buying the tickets, before even sitting in the theatre. "No way will it be as good as Lucas did." It's DISNEY and they're really evil." "How dare they touch something from my childhood?" "It ended, and it had a good ending, and this is such a blatant cash-grab."

It's a little different from the prequels, where it took a month or two for people to overcome the burst of nostalgia and realise, holy hell, Phantom Menace was ****. It's the exact opposite phenomenon: some fans decided TFA was going to be bad, convinced themselves it WAS bad while watching it, and (I think) will slowly come around once they realize that it's just fine.

I don't get how people complain about a predictable plot in Star Wars, when the "big twist" in EPV is that Darth Vader is Lukes father. Star Wars has always been formulaic and was carried by good executution, characters and setting. I don't say you can't dislike EPVII. If the characters didn't resonate with you there is nothing that can be done about it, but please don't make up pseudo-objective nonesense reasons for it.

Maybe "it has been always been that way" is not the best base for "don't complain about it". ;-)

In Contest that we get these days every year a bunch of "well executed" movies with formula, Michal Bay being one of the most prominent film makers to keep pushing this, it kind of understandable that people get tired of it.

I do get the impression that Star Wars might not be the right franchise for you. A huge part of its charm is its "pulpiness", sticking to a formula is very much apropriate.

I get the impression that you use that phrase to dismiss anything negative said about your object of fandom ;-)

Oh, I can acknowledge issues with TFA, it had a lot of them. My worst eye-rolling moment was when Finn accidently sliped to turn on the holotable which not only contributed nothing but nostalgia nonsense but also took up far too much time. Starkillerbase being a third Deathstar is ridiculous and shouldn't have been part of the movie.

The way these issues get overblown on the internet is however just comical at this point, since TFA managed to be a good - not a masterpiece, not even a great - movie despite them.

I went in to TFA with high hopes, It started off strong but as soon as Poe opened his mouth to Kylo the movie went downhill. That's about 5 minutes in. I was disappointed when I left the theater and I was pissed off that I had preemptively agreed to see if again with my family. I'll go see the next one because who knows, I'll likely never watch TFA again.

I don't get how people complain about a predictable plot in Star Wars, when the "big twist" in EPV is that Darth Vader is Lukes father. Star Wars has always been formulaic and was carried by good executution, characters and setting. I don't say you can't dislike EPVII. If the characters didn't resonate with you there is nothing that can be done about it, but please don't make up pseudo-objective nonesense reasons for it.

Maybe "it has been always been that way" is not the best base for "don't complain about it". ;-)

In Contest that we get these days every year a bunch of "well executed" movies with formula, Michal Bay being one of the most prominent film makers to keep pushing this, it kind of understandable that people get tired of it.

I do get the impression that Star Wars might not be the right franchise for you. A huge part of its charm is its "pulpiness", sticking to a formula is very much apropriate.

I get the impression that you use that phrase to dismiss anything negative said about your object of fandom ;-)

Oh, I can acknowledge issues with TFA, it had a lot of them. My worst eye-rolling moment was when Finn accidently sliped to turn on the holotable which not only contributed nothing but nostalgia nonsense but also took up far too much time. Starkillerbase being a third Deathstar is ridiculous and shouldn't have been part of the movie.

The way these issues get overblown on the internet is however just comical at this point, since TFA managed to be a good - not a masterpiece, not even a great - movie despite them.

Oh, that just the Zeitgeist, everything gets overblown and turned into a "them vs us" thing. You know what is even worse? The hate for the prequels. Which so far have impressed me more than TFA despite all their flaws. Does not mean TFA is a bad movie, it is an ok-movie which is actually really for me. But if they run the next 20 star wars movies exact in the same way … not a fan of that perspective.

Which is especially ironic as I am in general a fan of the stuff disney produces.