Thanks everybody for the info!

Fel with an advanced escort or two can cause serious havoc. You cannot shoot at him (Therefore you take automatic 1 damage.)

I also like to pair him with Howlrunner and Dengar. 5 attack dice and Counter 4 is pretty nasty.

Still shocked that howlrunner increases counter.

I didn't think howlrunner added to counter. Her ability only adds dice to your attack pool, but doesn't say anything about counter.

Fel with an advanced escort or two can cause serious havoc. You cannot shoot at him (Therefore you take automatic 1 damage.)

I also like to pair him with Howlrunner and Dengar. 5 attack dice and Counter 4 is pretty nasty.

Still shocked that howlrunner increases counter.

I didn't think howlrunner added to counter. Her ability only adds dice to your attack pool, but doesn't say anything about counter.

It doesn't explicitly call out counter, but because counter is an attack, and Howlrunner applies to all attacks, it is included.

Perfect example to Hastatior's point:

Last tournament my opponent had the Soontir/Mauler/Vader/Dengar combo (with a Rhymerball to boot). I was running a heavy Rhymberball (IIRC about five or six Bombers, three Advanceds, Rhymer and Vader) in a Tarkin squadron (three VSD-Is). He overreached with his Soontir cluster and engaged my Rhymerball while they were still in range of my VSDs' flak dice, but not in range of his ISDs. I engaged Soontir with my Advanceds but didn't fire, then burned down Soontir with two rounds of Ruthless Strategist flak. Actually, the entire blob was taken out in a single turn.

I'm not saying I am a good squadron player (I'm not, which is why it was foolish to take a list so reliant on them!). But I saw that he had a nice anti-squadron build, so I kept my bombers well within blue range of my VSDs. Had he kept his fighters back as a screen, they would have clashed with my bombers when my VSDs would be forced to choose between firing flak or tangling with the ISDs. My Advanceds also would have been tied up in the blob, and unable to lock down his Rhymerball, which would have been a very different game.

The thing to remember is that Soontir (and, to an extent, Dengar) is very fragile. And an Escort squadron only prevents other squadrons from targeting him. He still gets hit by flak, Mauler, Boba Fett, etc., all of which cannot be prevented by Escort or his defense tokens. And his ability only triggers if your opponent attacks. So if your opponent has an Intel ship, they can just fly away and Fel only contributes his attack, not the ability you're paying for.

Yes, but why take Soontir Fel when you can take Rhymer and add more bombers/firesprays? After all, dead capital ships do a lot more for you than dead fighters. Especially with intel coming in to free up the bombers to shoot at enemy capital ships and ignore your fighters......

Yes, Fel is great. vader is great. But in a way I feel these things don't matter with Intel combined with Bomber. I wish it wasn't so, but there it is.

Cutter9999 is running like 9 bombers, Dengar, and 2 vanilla Jumpmasters with 3 VSD carriers. If you don't include squadron protection, your Intel ships will die immediately to even a very token squadron screen, which will then proceed to rapidly tear up your whole Rhymer ball.

Edit: ugh, looks like that replay never got posted. I'll see if I still have it saved when I get home tonight.

Yes, but why take Soontir Fel when you can take Rhymer and add more bombers/firesprays? After all, dead capital ships do a lot more for you than dead fighters. Especially with intel coming in to free up the bombers to shoot at enemy capital ships and ignore your fighters......

Yes, Fel is great. vader is great. But in a way I feel these things don't matter with Intel combined with Bomber. I wish it wasn't so, but there it is.

Go watch Cutter9999 vs Miferr in the Team Vassal Tournament to see what happens when you do this. Spoiler: you lose horribly.

Cutter9999 is running like 9 bombers, Dengar, and 2 vanilla Jumpmasters with 3 VSD carriers. If you don't include squadron protection, your Intel ships will die immediately to even a very token squadron screen, which will then proceed to rapidly tear up your whole Rhymer ball.

Edit: ugh, looks like that replay never got posted. I'll see if I still have it saved when I get home tonight.

Yeah and these days a "token" fighter screen might be 5 x-wings. With no advanced, 5 x-wings will feed a pure bomber ball its lunch and even if completely destroyed will earn back its points twice over, not only in destroyed squadrons but in denying your 130 points of bombers from fulfilling its reason to be on the table. And since they are bombers they are also useful against squadron light builds.

Come to think of it, I think I predicted the resurgence of the x-wing in counter to the rhymerball a few months ago (as i'm sure many others did)

Yes, but why take Soontir Fel when you can take Rhymer and add more bombers/firesprays? After all, dead capital ships do a lot more for you than dead fighters. Especially with intel coming in to free up the bombers to shoot at enemy capital ships and ignore your fighters......

Yes, Fel is great. vader is great. But in a way I feel these things don't matter with Intel combined with Bomber. I wish it wasn't so, but there it is.

Go watch Cutter9999 vs Miferr in the Team Vassal Tournament to see what happens when you do this. Spoiler: you lose horribly.

Cutter9999 is running like 9 bombers, Dengar, and 2 vanilla Jumpmasters with 3 VSD carriers. If you don't include squadron protection, your Intel ships will die immediately to even a very token squadron screen, which will then proceed to rapidly tear up your whole Rhymer ball.

Edit: ugh, looks like that replay never got posted. I'll see if I still have it saved when I get home tonight.

Yeah and these days a "token" fighter screen might be 5 x-wings. With no advanced, 5 x-wings will feed a pure bomber ball its lunch and even if completely destroyed will earn back its points twice over, not only in destroyed squadrons but in denying your 130 points of bombers from fulfilling its reason to be on the table. And since they are bombers they are also useful against squadron light builds.

Come to think of it, I think I predicted the resurgence of the x-wing in counter to the rhymerball a few months ago (as i'm sure many others did)

Fighter doctrine is becoming a really interesting part of the game for sure. I really like how the X-wing as made a comeback.

As primarily an Imperial player, I'm enjoying learning how to coordinate a notionally weaker fighter screen with my star destroyers. In Wave 1 it wasn't really an option unless you ran a Glad 2, and even it didn't have access to many antisquad boosters. But with wave 2 and ISD flak, plus Ruthless and Raiders, and Imperials can play a really well developed fighter game now. Look forward to the day that I can avoid my VSDs being burned down by Ywings and Keyan!

I thought by "face card" he meant an ace. Cause they have faces on them?

Under no interpretation that I am aware of are Aces "face cards." Only the Jack, Queen and King count as face cards.

I've found Advanceds work perfectly in a Rhymberball. They have Escort, so they can keep your Dengar/Jumpmaster and Rhymer from getting shot down, they fly at the same speed, and they have five hull, so they can stick around. But most importantly - they throw a black die at ships. Yes, you lose the 25% chance of doing double damage and you can't resolve crits. But every Bomber you replace with an Advanced still has a 75% chance of damaging a ship. And you can use them to fire at ships first, so they can drop those pesky shields and allow the Bombers to start dealing face up damage cards. Especially with Precision Strike, they synergize well.

True, Advanceds don't have the anti-squadron capability of Howlrunner TIEs or Interceptors, but they can put out a decent amount of damage, and their five hull is great for some Ruthless Strategist action.