Join Vader's Finest in our twelfth episode as we take another look at the meta and see what's changed since our first episode, just in time for Store Championships and Regionals.

Our Cantina Corner this week was Coop Ale Works' "Alpha Hive."

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Good episode, enjoyed the discussion of the current meta. Are you guys going to do an episode about the Bespin expansion + A&V's that were announced recently? Would love to hear that in an episode.

Another great episode as always, I had a road trip this weekend and re listened to episodes 5-11 so this is perfect timing

I am curious though, VF spends a lot of time at tournaments and discussing the game with others, what is the general feeling you get from people about the entry price for IA Skirmish? We've had a lot of discussion about it on these forums trying to knock around ideas on how to bring new players in and promote the growth of the game. I would be interested to get your guys thoughts on the matter and what you've heard from others.

Currently as it stands with the new map rotation you need to throw about $200 down just to attend a tournament, without even building a list (for the map tiles). Do you guys think this is holding the game back? Having to buy multiple big boxes for extra deployment cards and all that.. I haven't heard much controversy out of your show yet so this might be a topic you purposefully steer clear of, and if that is the matter I understand. But it would be nice to see such a well respected voice in the community give their thoughts and relay any discussions you've had with players.

Currently as it stands with the new map rotation you need to throw about $200 down just to attend a tournament, without even building a list (for the map tiles).

Most store tournaments I've been to have been pretty accommodating about figuring out who's going to bring what to the event, so not everyone would need to have everything. I don't know if that would apply to regionals, but seeing as how they're the same stores running the store championships, I'd imagine they'd be decent with that, too, provided you check in first.

After the errata, I've seen some competitive lists with just the units in the base game. I'd wager that most people wouldn't need to have everything until they show up for nationals, or something.

So let me get this straight. The reigning World Champion is playing and winning with Imperial Troopers. Imperial Troopers are consistently placing high in Store Championships. You dismiss Stormtroopers as inferior to Rebel Troopers, despite them having better surges, better range, more consistent damage and inherent Focus ability, all of which are less conditional than Rebel Trooper abilities.

And then you still state that Empire is below the curve and weaker than everything else - and that's IMMEDIETELY AFTER you yourselves admit that Imps are "winning 90% of Store Championships".

Well, I do admire the tenacity at least.

As an added cherry on top, you dismiss all high cost unique character lists immedietely after praising Luke and Leia as the best, most powerful and most dominating pieces in the game.

Please look past the white die already. The game does not revolve around rolling dodge results, and neither does the skirmish metagame. You really need to acknowledge that, those "meta evaluations" are getting old.

Was slightly confused about this as well. I think maybe they are playing full games of skirmish because they keep talking about Leia's cycling abilities which realistically don't come up in most games. Unless they are getting really really lucky with draws. And I don't know exactly what the beast machines list consists of but it doesn't really sound like the strongest Merc list right now. I don't know that I would put double Bantha up there either.

I would be very interested to see what lists they are specifically using in their testing. From my experience thus far, the twins lists do not stand a chance of beating a trooper swarm list. There was a pretty decent player in our last store championship using Luke/Leia/Gideon/eRebel Troopers x2. I beat him 40-6 in round 1, and my son beat him by the same score in the top 4. Now I'm not saying that player skills may not have something to do with the difference, but I just haven't seen a close match yet between rebels and the current trooper swarm lists. I would love to be wrong, since I definitely enjoy the rebel lists more.

VadersFinest, is it possible to break the podcast into smaller sections? I tried listening to your last one, but after having to stop it for interruptions then try and restream and find my place again I gave up several times.

Solid work though, what I got to hear

So let me get this straight. The reigning World Champion is playing and winning with Imperial Troopers. Imperial Troopers are consistently placing high in Store Championships. You dismiss Stormtroopers as inferior to Rebel Troopers, despite them having better surges, better range, more consistent damage and inherent Focus ability, all of which are less conditional than Rebel Trooper abilities.

And then you still state that Empire is below the curve and weaker than everything else - and that's IMMEDIETELY AFTER you yourselves admit that Imps are "winning 90% of Store Championships".

Well, I do admire the tenacity at least.

As an added cherry on top, you dismiss all high cost unique character lists immedietely after praising Luke and Leia as the best, most powerful and most dominating pieces in the game.

Please look past the white die already. The game does not revolve around rolling dodge results, and neither does the skirmish metagame. You really need to acknowledge that, those "meta evaluations" are getting old.

Regarding the meta, I don't think the size of the game is great enough that we can really determine what's best based on what's winning. There are an extraordinary number of metas where people are playing fun lists or suboptimal lists, and certainly more metas than that where every viable archetype is not adequately represented. Therefore I don't think it's wise to judge Stormtroopers as the best list because they're the ones having the most results (I haven't even actually looked at any data for this, it was an off the cuff remark based on all of the reporting I've seen on Facebook, here, etc. The actual results may be quite different). For one, I think they are definitely the easiest competitive list to build, because they are essentially "pre-packaged," and also contained in boxes people are buying anyway. So it stands to reason that more people would be playing them. Which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, regardless of its actual accuracy.

Do you think Luke and Leia are high-costed? We are referring to lists with figures like Weiss, Chewbacca, Vader, etc. Luke and Leia are really the only unique units that are costed this aggressively, which is why we laud them so thoroughly.

We definitely acknowledge, even in this episode, that the black die is "more consistent," but that the x-man result on certain figures is absurd. Rolling one with a 5 health Rebel Trooper that's going to get Reinforced anyway and that the opponent had to commit a likely overkill attack to is backbreaking.

Was slightly confused about this as well. I think maybe they are playing full games of skirmish because they keep talking about Leia's cycling abilities which realistically don't come up in most games. Unless they are getting really really lucky with draws. And I don't know exactly what the beast machines list consists of but it doesn't really sound like the strongest Merc list right now. I don't know that I would put double Bantha up there either.

What do you consider the strongest Scum list? I personally played double Bantha, but Jesse won one of the Store Championships we just attended with single Bantha Beast Machines. I don't know what else you can really be doing in Scum that's as powerful and point efficient as HKs and melee beaters (Bantha, Nexu, etc).

I would be very interested to see what lists they are specifically using in their testing. From my experience thus far, the twins lists do not stand a chance of beating a trooper swarm list. There was a pretty decent player in our last store championship using Luke/Leia/Gideon/eRebel Troopers x2. I beat him 40-6 in round 1, and my son beat him by the same score in the top 4. Now I'm not saying that player skills may not have something to do with the difference, but I just haven't seen a close match yet between rebels and the current trooper swarm lists. I would love to be wrong, since I definitely enjoy the rebel lists more.

eRTs are going to be focused when you first run into them. A stormtrooper has to die to get another one focused. So... let's take a look-

3 focused eRTs vs 3 unfocused eStormtroopers.... I'll take the focused eRTs every time.

Also, if an eRT is only getting one focused shot off in a game, unless they are winning it that quickly, the person playing them is doing something wrong. Generally speaking.

In general, the +2 damage is better than +2 pierce. It just is- nothing to debate on that really. But, the surge needed to get that surge effect, plus the additional damage from the extra green die is what gives the eRT the edge (unless you are shooting a bantha, which pierce is almost useless).

Basing how good a list is because you've won a store championship with it needs to be considered with caution. Just because someone wins a SC with a list, doesn't make it the top.

That being said- when I won my store championship, I faced all trooper spam. (edit- I was running my own flavor of a Luke / Leia list)

Leia's cycling ability is only good if you are milling your deck (to take an old MtG term). You need to maximize your card draw. You can increase the effectiveness even more if you give Leia multiple attacks each turn (not to give away l33t t3ch, but Loku's special card, Fenn/ Change of Plans, Gideon's Take it Down, ect). I had a deck built around that (well, kind of, it was about maximizing the number of attacks you can generate in a round- Loku, Fenn, Leia, Gideon--- Got Fenn to attack 5 times in one turn). If you are through most, if not all of your deck, cycling cards with Leia wins.

I disagree with some of the things in the podcast as well- but, I'll save that for later.

eRTs are going to be focused when you first run into them. A stormtrooper has to die to get another one focused. So... let's take a look-

3 focused eRTs vs 3 unfocused eStormtroopers.... I'll take the focused eRTs every time.

Also, if an eRT is only getting one focused shot off in a game, unless they are winning it that quickly, the person playing them is doing something wrong. Generally speaking.

In general, the +2 damage is better than +2 pierce. It just is- nothing to debate on that really. But, the surge needed to get that surge effect, plus the additional damage from the extra green die is what gives the eRT the edge (unless you are shooting a bantha, which pierce is almost useless).

Basing how good a list is because you've won a store championship with it needs to be considered with caution. Just because someone wins a SC with a list, doesn't make it the top.

That being said- when I won my store championship, I faced all trooper spam. (edit- I was running my own flavor of a Luke / Leia list)

Leia's cycling ability is only good if you are milling your deck (to take an old MtG term). You need to maximize your card draw. You can increase the effectiveness even more if you give Leia multiple attacks each turn (not to give away l33t t3ch, but Loku's special card, Fenn/ Change of Plans, Gideon's Take it Down, ect). I had a deck built around that (well, kind of, it was about maximizing the number of attacks you can generate in a round- Loku, Fenn, Leia, Gideon--- Got Fenn to attack 5 times in one turn). If you are through most, if not all of your deck, cycling cards with Leia wins.

I disagree with some of the things in the podcast as well- but, I'll save that for later.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hcm8qq65Vq25UC0oz2VABTUAXjACvgZrSbLVMxO0MEQ/edit?usp=sharing

Here's a quick and dirty comparison. It takes a lot more effort for RTs to equal STs. Focus makes them almost even without accounting for the ST reroll.... and puts you out of position. The problem with RTs is they are much less flexible and less mobile if you want to keep their damage up.

Also focusing the RT turn one leaves you really out of position for objectives round two. Only mission that doesn't penalize this is going to be Deception Games. It's basically 18 points getting half a turn for the first round. And assuming you do focus them chances are you won't be able to get Aim off either.

The Merc list I was talking about is Bantha, E Tuskens, Nexu, HK, Hired Guns, Gideon, C3PO, Devious Scheme, Temp Alliance, Beast Tamer. 7 groups with Devious Scheme almost garuntees you will get the last turn round 1 for Bantha and the first turn round 2. If your opponent doesn't play extremely cautious round one you can basically win the game in those two turns. Even more so if you drew Ferocity, Jundland Terror or Crush. Though it's not necessary.

I think Kuat is the most lopsided contest with this list especially on the Data Core mission. There is no chance of an opponent controlling a terminal and all but ensures you will have one. The other mission of Kuat is not as bad but still pretty awful. Cantina deployment zones are just ridiculous in general. Bottom deployment zone gets a free protected terminal and the top side gets the one without and cover at all. If they go for the terminal before the last turn or so then they are just sitting ducks. And if you bait a cheap unit like a HG near the bottom terminal you can bait your opponent into moving a little too far to take them out and basically open fire on them.

The most even map is training grounds and I definitely enjoy that one the most. Though I think deception games is a little lame.

Rebel Troopers also have an easier to trigger inherent Focus ability.

Their Focus is easier to trigger in the sense that it does not rely on the opponent's play. It is much harder to trigger in the sense that you are giving up actions to use it, which Stormtroopers do not have to do. As mentioned earlier in this thread, giving up a move on the first round can leave you terribly out of position, the opponent can just avoid your focused troopers, making you waste even more actions repositioning (and losing your aim bonuses), especially since the skirmish maps are getting bigger and bigger. Not to mention the mission objective thing.

I don't think a black die is really adding any more survivability to the 5 health Stormtroopers, meaning the x-man result is extra powerful on Rebel Troopers (especially since you get to roll so many white dice with them in the mix).

Rolling any defence die is adding survivability to a figure (barring the very specific instance of rolling a blank on a white die), I struggle to see the logic in claiming otherwise. I will reiterate that I strongly feel you should stop going all gaga over the white die already. Yes, rolling a dodge is extremely cool. You know what's extremely sucky? Rolling a blank, for which you have the same exact chance. I can't understand how you can base all of your evaluations, strategies and calculations on rolling a 6 on a d6. Unless you have a crooked white die.

Then again, the proper counter to both kinds of troopers isn't trading shots and hoping they roll rubbish on defence, but trampling/cleaving/blasting/grenading them to death, in which case the colour of the die makes a marginal difference.

I think their Surges are actually very comparable. The Stormtrooper reroll is similar to the reroll the Rebel Troopers get from Luke.

No, they are not. The Stormtrooper +2 damage is flat out better than Pierce 2. And Stormtroopers have more accuracy on their accuracy surge.

The Luke thing made me laugh to be honest. Either we are comparing 9pts of troopers vs. 9pts of troopers, or 9pts of troopers vs. 19pts of troopers + their support. In the latter case I'll gladly agree that the second option is flat out better. But I don't think that's the point.

Regarding the meta, I don't think the size of the game is great enough that we can really determine what's best based on what's winning. [...] Therefore I don't think it's wise to judge Stormtroopers as the best list because they're the ones having the most results

Wait... So the meta is too small to consider stuff that wins consistently (ie. Imperial Troopers) to be the best, but it's big enough to consider stuff that wins less consistently (ie. Luke+Leia) to be the best?

Do you think Luke and Leia are high-costed? We are referring to lists with figures like Weiss, Chewbacca, Vader, etc. Luke and Leia are really the only unique units that are costed this aggressively, which is why we laud them so thoroughly.

Yes, I consider any single figure over 5pts to be "high-costed". Barring <5pt characters like Gideon or Threepio, Luke is the most accurately costed pre-Bespin unique. But he's still high-cost (a quarter of your squad in fact) and that still doesn't mean 100% accurate, IMO he could use a 1-2pt reduction or two extra pips of health. Leia should cost 6pts in my book, or have two extra health. The pair is currently almost half of your squad count. And they don't have the survivability to play that comfortably with the threat of Celebration, unless of course you keep insisting that they are unkillable because they have a 16% chance of rolling a dodge.

I think Kuat is the most lopsided contest with this list especially on the Data Core mission. There is no chance of an opponent controlling a terminal and all but ensures you will have one. The other mission of Kuat is not as bad but still pretty awful. Cantina deployment zones are just ridiculous in general. Bottom deployment zone gets a free protected terminal and the top side gets the one without and cover at all. If they go for the terminal before the last turn or so then they are just sitting ducks. And if you bait a cheap unit like a HG near the bottom terminal you can bait your opponent into moving a little too far to take them out and basically open fire on them.

The most even map is training grounds and I definitely enjoy that one the most. Though I think deception games is a little lame.

I really dislike Deception Game too. Straight up kill missions are always unbalanced in miniature games, and lead to various shenanigans like points denial lists and other wonky tactics. Locally the mission is consistently won by a Wookie list running around the board doing points denial while Gideon ticks VP to make it win on time.

I really like how one of the missions on Warzone is a straight up runny marathon mission - we haven't seen one of those since the first map rotation and I believe it could shake things up a bit... However, that's overshadowed by the fact that the map setup is terribly unbalanced, the deployment zones aren't even remotely even.

I haven't had a ton of practice on the new map but I did get to look at it. What makes you say the deployment zones are so lopsided?

West deployment is 3 spaces away from the nearest objective, then 5 spaces from the next and 7 from the third. By comprison, east deployment is 4 spaces from the nearest droid (one of which is a difficult terrain space, so that's 5 movement if you are not Mobile/Efficient), 6 spaces (7 movement) from the second and 8 spaces (9 movement) from the third.

A two figure, 5 speed deployment group deployed west can nab two droids in their opening move without the opponent being able to do anything, and still get comfortably tucked into corners safe from retaliation. If they have some movement cards or effects and/or the eastern player makes the mistake to do the usual with burning activations with Gideon or Threepio, I can realistically see the western player nabbing all three droids within the first 2-3 activations. And each one is worth 9VP, making the mission potentially even more swingy than Data Core.

This is a bit less of an issue (but still a big factor) with Constant Motion, but I can already see Fallout becoming the most hated mission ever.

Rebel Troopers also have an easier to trigger inherent Focus ability.

Their Focus is easier to trigger in the sense that it does not rely on the opponent's play. It is much harder to trigger in the sense that you are giving up actions to use it, which Stormtroopers do not have to do. As mentioned earlier in this thread, giving up a move on the first round can leave you terribly out of position, the opponent can just avoid your focused troopers, making you waste even more actions repositioning (and losing your aim bonuses), especially since the skirmish maps are getting bigger and bigger. Not to mention the mission objective thing.

I don't think a black die is really adding any more survivability to the 5 health Stormtroopers, meaning the x-man result is extra powerful on Rebel Troopers (especially since you get to roll so many white dice with them in the mix).

Rolling any defence die is adding survivability to a figure (barring the very specific instance of rolling a blank on a white die), I struggle to see the logic in claiming otherwise. I will reiterate that I strongly feel you should stop going all gaga over the white die already. Yes, rolling a dodge is extremely cool. You know what's extremely sucky? Rolling a blank, for which you have the same exact chance. I can't understand how you can base all of your evaluations, strategies and calculations on rolling a 6 on a d6. Unless you have a crooked white die.

Then again, the proper counter to both kinds of troopers isn't trading shots and hoping they roll rubbish on defence, but trampling/cleaving/blasting/grenading them to death, in which case the colour of the die makes a marginal difference.

Do you think an average of 2 block really adds any survivability to a Stormtrooper? I feel like they die in one to two hits regardless of what comes up on the die. Whereas the Rebel Troopers also take one to two hits to take out, but can sometimes eek out that extra hit (or more) because of the x-man.

I think their Surges are actually very comparable. The Stormtrooper reroll is similar to the reroll the Rebel Troopers get from Luke.

No, they are not. The Stormtrooper +2 damage is flat out better than Pierce 2. And Stormtroopers have more accuracy on their accuracy surge.

The Luke thing made me laugh to be honest. Either we are comparing 9pts of troopers vs. 9pts of troopers, or 9pts of troopers vs. 19pts of troopers + their support. In the latter case I'll gladly agree that the second option is flat out better. But I don't think that's the point.

Troopers have Aim that provides accuracy as well. I have never had a problem getting accuracy with either unit, so I don't feel like listing that as a point for either side is relevant. It is always "technically" better (since it fills both roles), but there are, again, plenty of times that it's irrelevant.

Regarding the meta, I don't think the size of the game is great enough that we can really determine what's best based on what's winning. [...] Therefore I don't think it's wise to judge Stormtroopers as the best list because they're the ones having the most results

Wait... So the meta is too small to consider stuff that wins consistently (ie. Imperial Troopers) to be the best, but it's big enough to consider stuff that wins less consistently (ie. Luke+Leia) to be the best?

That has never been the logic for the argument that Twins are good at all. Rigorous testing has been.

West deployment is 3 spaces away from the nearest objective, then 5 spaces from the next and 7 from the third. By comprison, east deployment is 4 spaces from the nearest droid (one of which is a difficult terrain space, so that's 5 movement if you are not Mobile/Efficient), 6 spaces (7 movement) from the second and 8 spaces (9 movement) from the third.

A two figure, 5 speed deployment group deployed west can nab two droids in their opening move without the opponent being able to do anything, and still get comfortably tucked into corners safe from retaliation. If they have some movement cards or effects and/or the eastern player makes the mistake to do the usual with burning activations with Gideon or Threepio, I can realistically see the western player nabbing all three droids within the first 2-3 activations. And each one is worth 9VP, making the mission potentially even more swingy than Data Core.

This is a bit less of an issue (but still a big factor) with Constant Motion, but I can already see Fallout becoming the most hated mission ever.

I'm yet to play on this map but it looks like Fallout may be the more annoying map, especially against high speed scum lists with devious scheme. Being able to choose the deployment zone and then usually guarantee turn two initiative makes objective grabbing super easy, especially with sentient beast tamer nexu and fast boba, or officer boosted probe droids.

If you get the East deployment on that one, you may as well give up the droids and control the terminals. Stop the opponent handing in.

For constant motion, it just becomes a massive fight at the bottom. West side might have the advantage on the first turn but that will come out in the wash when things start fighting and moving closer in turn two. You can't pick up the objectives, and if you give up first turn initiative (eg with devious scheme) then you only get to control one of the 3 droids at the end of the round. I don't think that one is as lob-sided as it sounds.

Fallout I agree might be a huge pain for slower lists.

Gideon is the only properly costed unique 'til Bespin.

The Deployment Zones are not equally good on purpose to make having initiative less bad. (Information taken from an interview with one of the developers.)

Gideon is the only properly costed unique 'til Bespin.

The Deployment Zones are not equally good on purpose to make having initiative less bad. (Information taken from an interview with one of the developers.)

That info on the deployment zones is interesting! Do you have a link to the interview? I love to read stuff like that.

***This is constructive criticism - not 'internet hate'***

Whilst it's clear that there's a lot of variation to each list/broad archetype, I think this episode would have greatly benefited from the discussion of each list being prefaced by a brief rundown of what the typical list looks like, in terms of deployment cards.

It's always good to define what it is you're actually discussing, before you discuss it.

Are either of you guys from Vader's Finest hooked up to Vassal at all? I'd love to get some matches in with you or even watch some matches that you guys play to see what it is some of us are missing about the Rebel Lists. Any chance of that happening?

Gideon is the only properly costed unique 'til Bespin.

The Deployment Zones are not equally good on purpose to make having initiative less bad. (Information taken from an interview with one of the developers.)

That info on the deployment zones is interesting! Do you have a link to the interview? I love to read stuff like that.

It was a Podcast, but I don't remember which one. Team Covenant maybe?

The problem with unequal deployment zones is that Devious Scheme becomes stupidly amazing.

I agree that winning initiative shouldn't be a bad thing, and getting to pick the better deployment zone is a good way of minimizing that effect, however Devious Scheme lets me pick the zones AND give you turn 1 initiative, all for only 1 point.

I'd honestly pay 2 points for Devious Scheme... maybe even 3 for those maps with really uneven deployment zones eg Cantina.

The more I play cantina the more I see how bad the west east deployment zone is. Training ground isn't so bad but the outside one is still better imo. Leia's warzone map I'm unsure as I haven't played enough on it yet. It seems like east is better for Constant Motion, but it probably doesn't matter too much for Fallout.

What makes the west deployment zone worse? I thought the common consensus was the other way around. They have the protected terminal at the top of the cantina and they also have the square of cover at the bottom with great sight into the cantina and down the hall towards the bottom terminal. Objective wise it seems in wests favor for battlefield engineering as well. What advantages does the east have?