Here are my thoughts so far

• Crackblack, obvs, kill it before it fires if you're lucky
• Blockers: anything speedy PS < 3 that can zoom in, get some blocks, and prevent the Scout from focusing
• Focus stripping/negating: Wes would be good to strip focuses, Carnor can prevent the action, Palob (if he had a better frickin' dial)
• Mirror match: go for 99 point bid (drop 4Lom), get some blocks in
• Arc dodgy stuff: Dash comes to mind, with his slippery-ness he can get out of arc and blast them with his HLC
• Palp+Ace with autothrusters: bait the torp attack with a stacked ace with tokens at range 3 with auto. Pray. Note: 4-Lom makes this scary.
• EDIT: The S&V slack channel is debating Brobots -- if they can survive the alpha strike it might go ok

The trade off to efficient scouts re ordnance carriers is scum doesn't offer much in the way of accompaniment apart from other scouts

Imperials can supplement their ordnance with late game powerhouses, for example

If we're honest, though, we all know gchips wouldn't make ordnance viable on everyone.

Ys can't get mods off torps and can TLT

Bwings are hellish expensive for relatively very little gain

Ks are gruesomely inefficient and can't even k turn to bring arcs to bear

Not counting cheap stuff like Zs, the only dedicated carriers one could expect to be viable outside scouts are the relatively cheap bomber and the awesome redline

Now scouts are flexible enough to make lists on their own, but bombers can conceivably be run with more diverse squad mates (ala Vader 2 homing gammas and a crackblack) and carry the same modifiers as scouts (4 dice rerolls chips)

Redline uniquely boasts self sufficient rerolls on both cm shots at a PS that may now be very relevant with low PS wave 8 terrors running around. If ghost becomes a thing, you're going to want those clusters

Try Palob again, he might suprise you with the new cloaking device.

Sorry for spamming this thread. For a year or so I've been pondering a "Vassal Science Lab", where we solicit multiple volunteers to play out specific matchups (within specific asteroid placements); ie we match up the 100 point plasma build versus various counters and see how they behave. We the look at all the vlog/ladyluck results and try to assess theory vs practice. This seems like a perfect place to try that out. Like if you're interested in this idea.

Sorry for spamming this thread. For a year or so I've been pondering a "Vassal Science Lab", where we solicit multiple volunteers to play out specific matchups (within specific asteroid placements); ie we match up the 100 point plasma build versus various counters and see how they behave. We the look at all the vlog/ladyluck results and try to assess theory vs practice. This seems like a perfect place to try that out. Like if you're interested in this idea.

I do this sort of thing every time I make a list I'm pretty serious about, except I play both sides. I did it with U-boats when the list first hit the web, and it convinced me that (like many lists), it's all about asteroids. They are more susceptible to asteroids than any list in the game. Just flying over a rock takes you from 4 likely hits with a torpedo to one likely hit with the primary. Between the large base and the arc requirement.

Dash looks pretty strong, to me, because he wants 3 big debris fields anyway, and that sort of board coverage with obstacles means concentrated torpedo fire is basically never going to happen.

Why think of "fixes" when none are required? UUU isn't OP

Let's check back in on this point after Regional Season and see if you still agree!

I sincerely, SINCERELY hope you're right and they will Warp (love that word) the meta away from filthy acewing >:3

It's too bad that there aren't more Y-Wings with EPTs. You can run this same combo on Kavil for about the same cost. 34 points gets you Kavil w/Dead Eye, Extra Munitions, Plasma Torpedoes, R4, Guidance Chips, and an Autoblaster Turret.

I wonder if it makes sense to take Kavil and two 33 point Scouts.

Try Palob again, he might suprise you with the new cloaking device.

I've been considering running Expert Handling, TLT, Cloaking Device on Palob just for annoyance's sake. Heck, you could even throw a Stygium Particle Accelerator on there to make him a tad tankier, too.

That aside, I've had one Vassal game against a single scout and it was pretty rough. The barrel roll (on the Scout) definitely helps control the range of engagement which is pretty crucial for keeping the Scout out of Palob's token denial zone. Also, against three of them you'll have to be careful to only get one scout in range at a time, or you'll be forced to choose which one is the most important, and still get hit by the other 1-2, and HWKs can't repel firepower of that magnitude for long...

Try Palob again, he might suprise you with the new cloaking device.

I've been considering running Expert Handling, TLT, Cloaking Device on Palob just for annoyance's sake. Heck, you could even throw a Stygium Particle Accelerator on there to make him a tad tankier, too.

Forget Stygium, 2 points just fizzeling isn't bad, 5 points hurts a lot. If you use Expert Handling consider K4 Security Droid instead.

Try Palob again, he might suprise you with the new cloaking device.

I've been considering running Expert Handling, TLT, Cloaking Device on Palob just for annoyance's sake. Heck, you could even throw a Stygium Particle Accelerator on there to make him a tad tankier, too.

Forget Stygium, 2 points just fizzeling isn't bad, 5 points hurts a lot. If you use Expert Handling consider K4 Security Droid instead.

I actually forgot the crew part of the build was an Intelligence Agent to spot an opponent's dial and be able to decloak/barrel roll to be elsewhere or still have a TLT shot. But in general, I agree, the SPA is a tad overkill for something that may work once, and the K4 does have nice synergy clearing stress, though you can get limited to your greens pretty quickly.

Try Palob again, he might suprise you with the new cloaking device.

I've been considering running Expert Handling, TLT, Cloaking Device on Palob just for annoyance's sake. Heck, you could even throw a Stygium Particle Accelerator on there to make him a tad tankier, too.

Forget Stygium, 2 points just fizzeling isn't bad, 5 points hurts a lot. If you use Expert Handling consider K4 Security Droid instead.

I've had good results with Wired + Zuckuss . The cloaking device is just there to zoom into position and neutralize a target while TLTing others. Wired + Zuckuss can take down an Ace like Inquisitor or Soontir/Omega Leader very quickly. Often in 2 turns, sometimes in 3.

Seems to me like we'll probably have a list that counters it soon. The biggest thing is to work on reducing the massive ordnance damage either through mitigation or denial. Some things I can see..

1) Wes removes the focus token preventing them from firing.

2) Stressbots prevent them from getting the action they need to use to fire -- and makes them more predictable in movement when they need to clear stress

3) Biggs can use R4-D6 to absorb a ton of damage, so long as they aren't critting a ton

4) Arc dodging is still viable

5) Reinforced deflectors can reduce the burst damage

What else is worth doing?

5) Reinforced deflectors can reduce the burst damage

Plasma Torps + Reinforced Deflectors have a funny interation. On Vassal last night we (well, Jafar) made the on-the-fly call that the result depends on who has init: if the plasma torp player has init, then the torps cancel out the shield gained by the deflectors. If the deflector player has it, then the shield comes back ok. Probably needs a FAQ entry.

5) Reinforced deflectors can reduce the burst damage

Plasma Torps + Reinforced Deflectors have a funny interation. On Vassal last night we (well, Jafar) made the on-the-fly call that the result depends on who has init: if the plasma torp player has init, then the torps cancel out the shield gained by the deflectors. If the deflector player has it, then the shield comes back ok. Probably needs a FAQ entry.

At least that second torpedo probably won't be ambiguous, when it's hitting hull

Would a Z-95-Tala swarm with a ton of ordnance be a big threat as well? They all shoot first -- you could possibly take out a JumpMaster on the first round before they even shot.

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel%20Alliance&d=v4!s!66:27,143:-1:25:;65:13:-1:25:;65:13:-1:25:;65:13:-1:25:;65:13:-1:25:;65:-1:-1:-1:&sn=Unnamed%20Squadron

Dear FFG, if this is a problem and you need a solution, here it is:

"Oops, we swapped a bunch of point costs."

Outer Rim Smuggler now costs 25 points

Wild Space Fringer now costs 27 points

Contracted Scout now costs 30 points

No more triple boat lists, and the ORS and WSF might actually see some play.

You're welcome.

Contracted Scout isn't overpriced... the other two are.

That and seeing ordnance being played even if TLT Ys aren't fans is pretty much the best thing that's happened to this game in ages.

Contracted Scout isn't overpriced... the other two are.

That and seeing ordnance being played even if TLT Ys aren't fans is pretty much the best thing that's happened to this game in ages.

No, it is most definitely not overpriced.

Seems to me like we'll probably have a list that counters it soon. The biggest thing is to work on reducing the massive ordnance damage either through mitigation or denial. Some things I can see..

1) Wes removes the focus token preventing them from firing.

2) Stressbots prevent them from getting the action they need to use to fire -- and makes them more predictable in movement when they need to clear stress

3) Biggs can use R4-D6 to absorb a ton of damage, so long as they aren't critting a ton

4) Arc dodging is still viable

5) Reinforced deflectors can reduce the burst damage

What else is worth doing?

These are good points, but just wanted to make some counter points for discussion purposes.

1) Wes removes one of the Scouts focus. And, in the case he becomes very popular and proves effective, RecSpec is a good option as crew.

2)Stressbot is not especially effective in my opinion. He gets the double stress on one of the targets if he lives, and in a lot of cases, as long as they get their initial alpha strike off, the Scouts wont care much about the stress afterwards.

3) Proton torps are probably the most popular torp right now, and it gets a crit in there to turn off R4-D6 (if I understand R4-D6 correctly. I admittedly haven't seen it trigger ever). I do think Biggs is a good option just by pulling shots his way though. I'm especially interested in these Kanan builds.

4) Arc dodging is much harder when you are trying to dodge 3 large base arcs with a very maneuverable dial.

5) Deflectors is actually something I've been thinking about. There might be something there.

To continue the list of non-counters:

Sensor Jammer only works against non-Proton Torp users, as any time else it just opens up their "turn eye to crit" option which they might not be able to take otherwise.

Carnor is another option. He'd give the scouts a lot of problems. You just got to get him into range 1 without exploding.

SLAM is a pretty good bet. Use K-Wings with bombs so you don't lose too much damage by not attacking. I would be willing to give the 2 Sabine K-Wings a shot against U-Boats.

https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel%20Alliance&d=v4!s!139:135,126,-1,-1,63,138,41:-1:16:;140:135,126,-1,-1,166,138,41:-1:16:U.-1&sn=Unnamed%20Squadron

Thats the list I mean.

-------- My Background:

I´m late to the game but I have to say I love it! I am/was a GW lovechild for the last 30 years but this game has broken the chain holding me to the WH universe.

The things I love about this game are the simultaneous planning and execution (ala epic 25 years ago - why did GW abandon that route?), the obvious Star Wars connection, and the balancing of the game (whilst selling more kits - nps if it´s not power creep).

I don´t have that many ships so far but I´m going to be investing upwards of a grand (in dollars) the next time I´m in Europe. I now Iive in South America where import taxes and middlemen double the cost of the ships.

-------- Present thoughts:

But sadly this ship has turned me off of the idea. I wanted to get a Punisher and Bombers for the Imps along with 2 B-wings and 2 K-Wings for the Rebels. But I hate the idea that there is a ¨Super figure¨ equivalent of Jace (MtG) out there that makes them all obselete in comparison and you're toast if you don´t play it. I´m not talking about the HPs of this ship, only its deadeye potential which takes it miles out of reach of the others for ease of play and implementation. Setting up target lock is a crucial bit of tactics and skill for the player, if you want to make it easier you pay for a higher PS so as to move last. This ship is a PS 3 generic that breaks the rules. I wanted to get one (for Dengar and the option of the rest) and I will not get three to be a ¨power player¨.

And it´s that last phrase that turns me off. You have to get three copies of a nigh unique ship that is not culturally relevant to even the most avid SW fan in order to adapt to the new Meta. I don´t play much but I do teach Calc AP and the skewed situation is obvious using the probability generators out there. It´s a blatant money grab that also lowers the available content out there for casual players (it is now out of stock in many places so I probably won´t be able to get one anyway when I come over - check MM at http://www.miniaturemarket.com/ssearch?q=Star+Wars%3A+X-Wing+#/?_=1&filter.stock_facet_ext=New%20Items&page=1&sort.price=asc).

For someone who really wants to get into the game I feel this like a smack in the face. It says ¨The door is closed¨ and ¨Wave 9 will be obligatory to overcome this evilness, stay tuned!¨. It cuts off my desire to invest if I can only get 2nd tier (not the newest) stuff as I honestly thought their objective was to have a balanced game. It´s GW all over and I´m glad I´m not already committed.

----------- Proposed solution:

Caveat, I am completely new here and my opinion is worth nowt but I would solve this situation (EDIT: Should it become a serious problem) by limiting Large Based Ships to a maximum of two of each type in a 100pt game. It would affect triple Bounty Hunters (Which I´d love to play but the budget ain´t that great) and this triple Scouts which people already have or are going to have to have. I am not aware of any other triple LB Ship lists.

People who bought three would have an extra to sell, gift, paint or turn in to space debris; but otherwise it requires no correction to any cards, only a minor change in the tournament format.

------------

I know that I would only be playing casually, probably against friends using my ships, but it´s not the point. I hate the idea that this is a MtG situation where you have the ships to win and are therefore nigh unstoppable. For ne they took a step in the wrong direction.

Rant over. It´s a pleasure to meet you all; I love reading your thoughts on the game. Please go easy on me.....

To continue the list of non-counters:

Sensor Jammer only works against non-Proton Torp users, as any time else it just opens up their "turn eye to crit" option which they might not be able to take otherwise.

I don't buy this. If a single eyeball is rolled, then another turns to an eyeball, so only one of those gets switched from the proton torp. Of course, chips can be used for another, but SJ is still giving you better odds to mitigate damage.

I've seen this same argument saying that SJ isn't any good against Poe because he turns it back over anyways. In reality, it often forces Poe to make a tough decision on whether or not to spend the focus.

I think SJ is one of the most under-rated upgrade cards in the game. It's useful in any match-up.

SLAM is a pretty good bet. Use K-Wings with bombs so you don't lose too much damage by not attacking. I would be willing to give the 2 Sabine K-Wings a shot against U-Boats.

https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel%20Alliance&d=v4!s!139:135,126,-1,-1,63,138,41:-1:16:;140:135,126,-1,-1,166,138,41:-1:16:U.-1&sn=Unnamed%20Squadron

Thats the list I mean.

I think I'd prefer this:

Miranda's Do-nots

It forgoes the TLTs and downgrades Esege to a Guardian Squadron (relying on their two-dice PLT) in order to drop as many Cluster Mines as possible. The Stresshog uses a - no, that's a dumb idea, that range 3 is important for still hitting fools that use Palpaces, drop the Prox mines for the TLT. The Stresshog jousts, sucking down at least two Torp hits (and crippling one of the JMs for two turns with Stress), reducing the number of incoming torps to 3 next turn - which can be arc dodged again with SLAM bombings.

I see what you're doing with Connor Nets, but I think that dropping as many bombs as possible will be necessary.

I'm tempted to drop C-3P0 and give Miranda Flechette Torpedoes instead for further Stress shenanigans.

It'd take some practice to get good with (and not SLAM into your own mines later on) but I think it could work. Just requires... different thinking.