we keep killing fel's wrath by mistake

He other thing to remember with the R4 agro is that you can still use it on your primary attacks. If you can get into range 1 you have a good chance of hitting.

If people sit with their stress dealers at PS2, no. However, PS 4 stress dealers, especially if protected by, say, Biggs with R4-D6 will live long enough to weigh them down. In fact, a stresshog could just fire at two different jumpmasters with overclocked which means that re-acquiring a second token would leave them double stressed.

If we're talking about this squad:

2x Proton Torpedoes + Extra Munitions + R4

1x Plasma Torpedo + OCR4

... then there are a couple of pertinent points.

1. You can't stop any of the Jump Masters from firing their Torpedoes in the first round, unless you manage to dodge their arcs, kill them outright, or prevent the focus from being spent. A stress control list will not be able to do any of these.
2. The OCR4 doesn't care if it gets stressed, because its Plasma Torpedo will already be spent anyway. Even if it has 5x stress, just ram it down your opponent's throat and block with it, it just became your control piece.

So a stress list needs to aim to get multiple stress onto the two Jump Masters that have one more Proton Torpedo left in the tube.

Combat will go down something like this:

1. PS4 pieces put some stress onto the 2 Proton U-boats.
2. U-boats kill Biggs in one round. With a little luck Biggs dies after the 2nd shot, and one of the support ships eats a Proton Torp.
3. Proton Torp U-Boats rush in with 2 FWD greens, while the OCR4 boat rams itself down their throats with a 3 or 4 FWD to really gum up the works, because it doesn't care about shedding stress. The goal is to get the stress ships at R1 so their TLT is useless.
4. Stress ships try and focus fire down one of the Proton U-boats. U-Boats try and focus fire down one of the remaining stress ships.
5. It's off to the races to see who does more damage first. The U-Boats may not even need to get off a 4th torpedo, but if they do it's probably game over.

l.

I realize that the stresshog cannot prevent an overclocked from firing, but it can stress two of them which leaves the overclocked the choice of firing without using the droid or double stressing, in which case it should give your list a firepower advantage for a couple of rounds.

If you are using rock placement effectively and using a good approach, you shouldn't take all three torpedoes R1 unless you are just jousting, which only higher PS ordnance lists will be able to do. It's a situation that needs to play out on the table.

I'm not looking forward to CS and am not thrilled about their point cost or the myriad of options they have, but I do have some ideas on how to tackle them. Between them and TLTs, I think we're going to see lists that aren't really all that fun for newer, inexperienced players.

I really can see running 2 Scouts and Kath.

Edit - Bah not enough points nevermind that one.

The thing about the 2 dice PWT is that against a high agility ship, you can nuke it with the torps and leave something that can be killed with the turrets. Range 1 is pretty easy to get with a turret, especially a large base one.

Look at quad Warden, quad Autoblaster. Kill aces with your ABT's, everything else can just be plinked to death by the regular turrets.

2 dice PWT is still pants, though

2 dice PWT with 4-lom and r4 (which are used mainly for the torp, but also apply to the primary)? less pants

So what trumps these things? Carnor Jax, maybe, if he can get into range 1. They also may be somewhat vulnerable to swarms.

On the Rebel side: Biggs with a Draw Their Fire wingman? Kanan and Hera in the Ghost both seem like liabilities against these things.

dis gon b me

on wednesday

So what trumps these things? Carnor Jax, maybe, if he can get into range 1. They also may be somewhat vulnerable to swarms.

On the Rebel side: Biggs with a Draw Their Fire wingman? Kanan and Hera in the Ghost both seem like liabilities against these things.

Deadeye!? Don't mind if I do!

Block = no action = no torp. Bumpmaster!!!!

Biggs seems nice

Conners v large ships is always a pleasure (and actually gives you a benefit when at a lower PS ala warden pilot)

For the ghost, there's "rebel arcdodging" (slamming into the opponent to deny shots), a staple from any ships with sensors or bb8 ptl. Hera (pilot) can pull it off fairly well at first glance. With zeb, you can then capitalize off a 2 dice difference (or let fly with autoblasters)

So what trumps these things? Carnor Jax, maybe, if he can get into range 1. They also may be somewhat vulnerable to swarms.

On the Rebel side: Biggs with a Draw Their Fire wingman? Kanan and Hera in the Ghost both seem like liabilities against these things.

Carnor Jax will force a breakup of any jousting formation they have, and that will help hugely. I'm thinking that x7 Defenders are going to be in a decent place. With a Focus/Evade+3AGI and 6 hit points, they're going to probably require 3 torpedo shots to kill, which means they probably survive to round 2, because I think you'll be able to avoid all 3 torps on one target with good use of the asteroid field. That means you can usually soak most U-boat alpha strikes and have all three ships in play on the second round of the engagement, which puts you at a big advantage. The x7 Defenders are also not as susceptible to the blocking that the Jumpmasters will be pretty solid at, because 3 AGI and 1 Evade token is a reasonable degree of defense against the offense the JMs will be putting out.

no matter how hard you try, 2 attack dice can't spike through tokens and ATs

If people sit with their stress dealers at PS2, no. However, PS 4 stress dealers, especially if protected by, say, Biggs with R4-D6 will live long enough to weigh them down. In fact, a stresshog could just fire at two different jumpmasters with overclocked which means that re-acquiring a second token would leave them double stressed.

If we're talking about this squad:

2x Proton Torpedoes + Extra Munitions + R4

1x Plasma Torpedo + OCR4

... then there are a couple of pertinent points.

1. You can't stop any of the Jump Masters from firing their Torpedoes in the first round, unless you manage to dodge their arcs, kill them outright, or prevent the focus from being spent. A stress control list will not be able to do any of these.
2. The OCR4 doesn't care if it gets stressed, because its Plasma Torpedo will already be spent anyway. Even if it has 5x stress, just ram it down your opponent's throat and block with it, it just became your control piece.

So a stress list needs to aim to get multiple stress onto the two Jump Masters that have one more Proton Torpedo left in the tube.

Combat will go down something like this:

1. PS4 pieces put some stress onto the 2 Proton U-boats.
2. U-boats kill Biggs in one round. With a little luck Biggs dies after the 2nd shot, and one of the support ships eats a Proton Torp.
3. Proton Torp U-Boats rush in with 2 FWD greens, while the OCR4 boat rams itself down their throats with a 3 or 4 FWD to really gum up the works, because it doesn't care about shedding stress. The goal is to get the stress ships at R1 so their TLT is useless.
4. Stress ships try and focus fire down one of the Proton U-boats. U-Boats try and focus fire down one of the remaining stress ships.
5. It's off to the races to see who does more damage first. The U-Boats may not even need to get off a 4th torpedo, but if they do it's probably game over.

l.

I realize that the stresshog cannot prevent an overclocked from firing, but it can stress two of them which leaves the overclocked the choice of firing without using the droid or double stressing, in which case it should give your list a firepower advantage for a couple of rounds.

If you are using rock placement effectively and using a good approach, you shouldn't take all three torpedoes R1 unless you are just jousting, which only higher PS ordnance lists will be able to do. It's a situation that needs to play out on the table.

I'm not looking forward to CS and am not thrilled about their point cost or the myriad of options they have, but I do have some ideas on how to tackle them. Between them and TLTs, I think we're going to see lists that aren't really all that fun for newer, inexperienced players.

That last sentence! It says everything I believe about the future of X-Wing.

Don't forget tractor beam which will take the struggling newbie and throw him onto rocks and/or out-of-firing arc/bricked for no shot.

I saw a lot of teens, parents in tow, buy the Force Awakens starter set, show up on game night during the SC practice period, and never come back...

This game is becoming like Magic: The Gathering: lots of super-pros who view new players as "meat." Lots of cards that new players cannot begin to wrap their minds around strategically (not to mention the requirement for the current meta's ships), resulting in a community that goes beyond competitive to cuththroat and immediately alienates new players.

New kid shows up with his new Decimator wanting to try it out. Pro player waits till after the new kid has his list out on the table, then makes his list, pulling out 3 K-Wings with Tactician and TLT.

"Why would you bring that list against a new guy" I asked him.

"He has a decimator - I saw a decimator and I'm bringing TLTs."

If triple U-Boat takes over, hopefully it will change the meta enough by dominating it. Then you'll see stuff like quad HM bomber at PS 4 or youngster rage 8 TIE Swarm to counter it.

I suspect you'll also see hybrid Acewing/Ordnancewing lists. Ordnance on certain high PS pilots that can just drop things.

IMO, triple CS is not an NPE list vs. newbies. ******* Palp Aces or 10 free shields a game Super Poe is.

If people sit with their stress dealers at PS2, no. However, PS 4 stress dealers, especially if protected by, say, Biggs with R4-D6 will live long enough to weigh them down. In fact, a stresshog could just fire at two different jumpmasters with overclocked which means that re-acquiring a second token would leave them double stressed.

If we're talking about this squad:

2x Proton Torpedoes + Extra Munitions + R4

1x Plasma Torpedo + OCR4

... then there are a couple of pertinent points.

1. You can't stop any of the Jump Masters from firing their Torpedoes in the first round, unless you manage to dodge their arcs, kill them outright, or prevent the focus from being spent. A stress control list will not be able to do any of these.
2. The OCR4 doesn't care if it gets stressed, because its Plasma Torpedo will already be spent anyway. Even if it has 5x stress, just ram it down your opponent's throat and block with it, it just became your control piece.

So a stress list needs to aim to get multiple stress onto the two Jump Masters that have one more Proton Torpedo left in the tube.

Combat will go down something like this:

1. PS4 pieces put some stress onto the 2 Proton U-boats.
2. U-boats kill Biggs in one round. With a little luck Biggs dies after the 2nd shot, and one of the support ships eats a Proton Torp.
3. Proton Torp U-Boats rush in with 2 FWD greens, while the OCR4 boat rams itself down their throats with a 3 or 4 FWD to really gum up the works, because it doesn't care about shedding stress. The goal is to get the stress ships at R1 so their TLT is useless.
4. Stress ships try and focus fire down one of the Proton U-boats. U-Boats try and focus fire down one of the remaining stress ships.
5. It's off to the races to see who does more damage first. The U-Boats may not even need to get off a 4th torpedo, but if they do it's probably game over.

l.

I realize that the stresshog cannot prevent an overclocked from firing, but it can stress two of them which leaves the overclocked the choice of firing without using the droid or double stressing, in which case it should give your list a firepower advantage for a couple of rounds.

If you are using rock placement effectively and using a good approach, you shouldn't take all three torpedoes R1 unless you are just jousting, which only higher PS ordnance lists will be able to do. It's a situation that needs to play out on the table.

I'm not looking forward to CS and am not thrilled about their point cost or the myriad of options they have, but I do have some ideas on how to tackle them. Between them and TLTs, I think we're going to see lists that aren't really all that fun for newer, inexperienced players.

That last sentence! It says everything I believe about the future of X-Wing.

Don't forget tractor beam which will take the struggling newbie and throw him onto rocks and/or out-of-firing arc/bricked for no shot.

I saw a lot of teens, parents in tow, buy the Force Awakens starter set, show up on game night during the SC practice period, and never come back...

This game is becoming like Magic: The Gathering: lots of super-pros who view new players as "meat." Lots of cards that new players cannot begin to wrap their minds around strategically (not to mention the requirement for the current meta's ships), resulting in a community that goes beyond competitive to cuththroat and immediately alienates new players.

New kid shows up with his new Decimator wanting to try it out. Pro player waits till after the new kid has his list out on the table, then makes his list, pulling out 3 K-Wings with Tactician and TLT.

"Why would you bring that list against a new guy" I asked him.

"He has a decimator - I saw a decimator and I'm bringing TLTs."

Then maybe you should - oh, I dunno - start pressuring your store into doing things OTHER than just dogfight, dogfight, dogfight, tournament, tournament, tournament?

If you can show them the case that it's losing them customers, then show them alternatives like the Heroes of the Aturi Cluster, Epic games, having a Mission Night instead of a tournament, then the store would start pushing back.

Oh, you'd hear squeals from the sort of empty, hollow people whose only moment of fulfillment in life is becoming momentarily superior to someone by winning a GAME, but push back hard enough and they'll come around - and find out that there are ways to play this game other than 100 point deathmatches.

I'm winning over the local 'tournament jerks' into other ways of playing the game; it's been a slow process but worth it in the end.

I'm winning over the local 'tournament jerks' into other ways of playing the game; it's been a slow process but worth it in the end.

This is awesome, good for you. Usually we have a rule in place where you come to game night with casual and competitive and depending on who you are playing you determine what list you are going to play.

IMO, triple CS is not an NPE list vs. newbies. ******* Palp Aces or 10 free shields a game Super Poe is.

Maybe those other lists are, too, but a new opponent will get more than two rounds against the latter lists. 3 torpedo scouts will absolutely be an NPE: The biggest and easiest* alpha strike in the game, hard to kill ships, and turrets. I have little doubt that it will actually feel worse since the game will be over quicker.

I mean, during Wave 3 I was new and brought some bombers (with Jonus) and frustrated a fellow player with exactly that kind of game. Obviously we found out the weaknesses of that list shortly thereafter but it was pretty disheartening even with a list that doesn't have near the advantages the scouts have.

I really can see running 2 Scouts and Kath.

Edit - Bah not enough points nevermind that one.

No, but you can fit Kath, A Scout, and something else, which I think will be solid.

IMO, triple CS is not an NPE list vs. newbies. ******* Palp Aces or 10 free shields a game Super Poe is.

Maybe those other lists are, too, but a new opponent will get more than two rounds against the latter lists. 3 torpedo scouts will absolutely be an NPE: The biggest and easiest* alpha strike in the game, hard to kill ships, and turrets. I have little doubt that it will actually feel worse since the game will be over quicker.

I mean, during Wave 3 I was new and brought some bombers (with Jonus) and frustrated a fellow player with exactly that kind of game. Obviously we found out the weaknesses of that list shortly thereafter but it was pretty disheartening even with a list that doesn't have near the advantages the scouts have.

I'd rather have the game be over than have a 2-3 TIE vs. R2-DPoe endgame that drags on forever with no hope of killing Poe.

Having a tokened up Soontir backed by Palp shrug off 4 attacks that were 3 hits each is about as NPE as you can get. Kriegsmarine may wipe your list real fast sure, but it's just a cheap PS bid away from being at a disadvantage.

Ordnancewing lists are jousting lists. No PS 9 boost and barrel roll to worry about. More noob friendly as a noob can predict that your torp boat will do a 2 hard, and /actually/ do a 2 hard, not a 2 hard with a free 1 bank/straight and a barrel roll. The game will return to a game of skill, not just having higher pilot skill and boosting with wave 8. Unless they run all green super Dash and the Super Dengar Rendar, but Kriegsmarine will put an end to those too.

IMO, triple CS is not an NPE list vs. newbies. ******* Palp Aces or 10 free shields a game Super Poe is.

Maybe those other lists are, too, but a new opponent will get more than two rounds against the latter lists. 3 torpedo scouts will absolutely be an NPE: The biggest and easiest* alpha strike in the game, hard to kill ships, and turrets. I have little doubt that it will actually feel worse since the game will be over quicker.

I mean, during Wave 3 I was new and brought some bombers (with Jonus) and frustrated a fellow player with exactly that kind of game. Obviously we found out the weaknesses of that list shortly thereafter but it was pretty disheartening even with a list that doesn't have near the advantages the scouts have.

In my experience, just about everything is an NPE to a newbie the first time he encounters it, because he has no idea how to handle it. Even the humble wave 1 TIE Swarm can cause an NPE (in fact, my local swarm player makes a point not to use it against newbies precisely because they're not going to find it very fun having their ships blocked and shredded by a wall of TIE Fighters).

The tricks is to make the newbie not a newbie by teaching him how to handle these things. Your opponent seemed lost against the U-boats? Show him how to use obstacles, action denial and range control to disrupt their ability to launch the torpedoes. Show him that 9 hp can actually vanish awfully fast under concentrated fire. Perhaps even offer suggestions on how to improve his list so he can better achieve these things.

If more people did that we'd have a lot less complaining on these forums...

In my area, we actually do that quite a bit, but there are lists that allow for that. Example: I played an opponent in a tournament who was playing his second game while I was flying a Palp Shuttle with Jax and Vader (the aforementioned NPE mentiond above) and he was running Boba with HLC and two FOs he had gotten from the new core set. I made sure to remind him of actions and we even talked about what the best options were. He was an eager learner and asked questions. I made sure he had a chance, to kill Vader and did, which he couldn't have been more excited about and he was hooked. I was fortunate, though because there are times at tourneys you don't know the experience/skill level of the player, etc., and it can be risky to try and hard to avoid being patronizing -- "Here let me tell you all the things you did wrong" if it's not invited.

There's also flexibility in that list to do so. I also don't think TLTs or Triple Scouts really afford that flexibility in playstyle either and it simply looks bad for a game, regardless of how nice the player is, with that amount of very accurate dice when a game is very one-sided. Now, the trouble is that the mechanics of the game do need to become more complex to keep the players we already have interested, too. I think the game would be pretty boring if we were still playing Wave 2 or 3 with different looking ships.

Be clear, I'm not complaining. I think exactly what you said is something people need to be aware of, but not everyone is going to be that friendly to new players or care if they wipe them off the board in 10 minutes. When the game can become that much of a learning curve for new players it does become incumbent upon the players to be the shepards of the game since the game itself has gone past that point.

Has anyone flown against the bumpmasters? My last two games were against a 3 scoutmaster list and the second one against 2 and a y-TLT.

It just amazes me how maneuverable they can be and how prepared you must be to be bumping nearly all the time. 3 Large ships cover good ground and have that crazy S-Loop. A skilled pilot should have you bumping all day long.

Strategies? Let me get back to you. Lost with one scoutmaster with 3 hull. So frustrating. Consider ships that don't mind bumping or that bumps in return. Ordnance works fairly well with this setup so be prepared. 2 attack/3 attack when bumped is good odds over time. Then you hope you don't blank on greens.

I believe the Scoutmaster is under-cost for that dial.

The list is called Wolfpack.

It has lots of build diversity based on the meta you plan to see. If you see lots of Fel or Aces you add Feedback arrays to a couple of them over extra munitions. The 1 extra point can be a torpedo upgrade or 1 of the 3 new crew cards. 4lom is my favorite for icing an ace on the alpha atk.

Now I am tempted to buy 2 extra J5K. No matter how I look at it, 3x J5K lists are potent and no real hard counter, that is viable against other lists, exists.

Here is my counter to the 3 scout list.

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel%20Alliance&d=v4!s!4:-1,77:-1:20:;82:30,-1,3:-1:20:;6:135,-1,-1,69:21:-1:;64:-1:-1:-1:&sn=Unsaved%20Squadron

The plan would be to enter the joust with them. Wes attacks first and denies 1 of the scouts from using ordnance (the proton torp if he can). Biggs draws the other 2 shots, and with R4-D6 and Wes's Draw their Fire he should be able to minimize the damage and survive the initial attack. After that the stressbot should be able to lock down one ship, and Wes can keep another one from firing ordanance. The Z-95 tries to get bumps.

Thoughts?

Here is my counter to the 3 scout list.

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel%20Alliance&d=v4!s!4:-1,77:-1:20:;82:30,-1,3:-1:20:;6:135,-1,-1,69:21:-1:;64:-1:-1:-1:&sn=Unsaved%20Squadron

The plan would be to enter the joust with them. Wes attacks first and denies 1 of the scouts from using ordnance (the proton torp if he can). Biggs draws the other 2 shots, and with R4-D6 and Wes's Draw their Fire he should be able to minimize the damage and survive the initial attack. After that the stressbot should be able to lock down one ship, and Wes can keep another one from firing ordanance. The Z-95 tries to get bumps.

Thoughts?

I like it