The competitive X-Wing community is a pretty lousy community.

Get used to it.

Really? Not in my experience at all.

Although I sympathise with your mindset and that it caused your head not to be in the game (I imagine if such an accusation were levelled at me I'd feel the same way, although that is unlikely unless people think I'm loading my dice to roll blanks), I think the TO probably handled things as well as they could. I imagine the quickest resolution for them would be to simply swap your dice. I might have thought first steps may have been to casually observe one of your matches to see if your dice are behaving unusually or something, but I suppose swapping the dice is quicker.

Did they examine your dice at all first or did they go straight to offering the fresh pack?

Wrong, the TO handled it piss poorly, and so did the people accusing him of loaded dice.

First, there was no chance for the player to know who these accusers were.

Second, the TO took the complaints at face value, and didn't choose to take measures until the final four game.

Third, if there was a complaint, the TO should have immediately examined the dice or observed a game.

Fourth, no action was taken until an out of town player threatened to come in and win the tournament.

All of this would have had me screaming mad. I get it. You don't want someone to come from somewhere miles away and make off with your precious hunks of plastic (range ruler, I believe) you feel entitled to. But if it bothers you, fly better. This was poor sportsmanship and protectionism. Seen it repeatedly in W40K tournaments where TO bias, enforcing bizarre house rules, and creative (i.e. Whatever favored the local) rules interpretations were taken for granted.

Let me stop you right here as I was a witness at the event before you continue to make more false accusations.

First, the player was aware of at least one accusser when he witnessed him checking his dice after a match.

Second, The TO got the 3rd complaint after the Top 8 game, so this was when they felt it warranted taking an action.

Third, the TO DID examine the dice, and felt it warranted approaching the player and asking him what he would like to do (continue using his dice, use another set/dice app).

Fourth, all 4 players in the top 4 were out of town.

I love people that come to conclusions and make false claims! Let's talk facts here people.

The TOs were in a tough position and had to approach the player. He was never accused by the TOs and was given a CHOICE on what he'd like to do. We'd be having this rant by someone else that said a player was accused of having tampered dice 3 times and the TOs did nothing to address the situation.

He was only aware of an accuser when he found them surrepititiosly examining the dice. He wasn't approached by any of his opponents in person.

The TO should have acted upon the first complaint, not the third. He should have been watching the games. He didn't.

If the TO found the dice were unfair, he should have disqualified the player IMMEDIATELY. The stupid decision to force a dice change may have been the least confrontational, but to me, it proved he couldn't find a problem and just wanted to mollify the other players. Not the best decision, IMO.

The winners being out of towners changes little to me. Where exactly were they from? Eh, doesn't matter, the main situation of accusations of cheating and the TO's method of handling it are the issue. If you can't handle a situation like this in an upfront manner, maybe you shouldn't be a TO. I couldn't do it, because as much as I am ragging on the TO's way of handling it, I can't say I could have had the balls to approach a player that others accused.

The competitive X-Wing community is a pretty lousy community.

Get used to it.

Huh? You think the X-Wing community is bad, the W40K tournament scene would destroy your faith in humanity.

The entire point that should be taken from this is:

1. The TOs are not equipped nor experienced enough to handle an event of this size (never the less a regional)

2. It was horribly mishandled and when confronted about how it was mishandled, they simply stood fast and made no concession on how it could have been handled differently.

3. They continue to defend their actions through the voice of the TO fiancee and accept no wrong doing whatsoever.

The entire point that should be taken from this is:

1. The TOs are not equipped nor experienced enough to handle an event of this size (never the less a regional)

2. It was horribly mishandled and when confronted about how it was mishandled, they simply stood fast and made no concession on how it could have been handled differently.

3. They continue to defend their actions through the voice of the TO fiancee and accept no wrong doing whatsoever.

1. FALSE. The TOs handled 5 rounds of swiss and 3 rounds elimination with a snack break and a dinner break in under 13 hours. The tournament was started on time (or almost... 1 minute late) and there were no delays between rounds.

2. FALSE. The TOs did not mandate any solution, and just had a simple conversation with the player to address the complaints that he had against him, so he wouldn't be ostracized on the forums, like you are so readily doing towards the TOs in the event now.

3. FALSE. You continue to attack them on forums they are not a part of, so it's hard for them to defend themselves personally. This is now the third thread you have participated in (and the only one you have not created) in which you continue to perpetuate your claims that are false. One of which the comments were locked because of the personal attacks that you made against the TOs and shop owner that you promptly deleted after you were told to stop (don't worry, I screened capped all of them).

Let it go man. It's just a game, and your witch hunt is unwarranted. You obviously had a personal vendetta since you started arguing the past week on the event page, and you were just waiting for a reason to complain.

If you maybe spent that energy on your play, then you might have given me that loss that you promised on the facebook post.

The competitive X-Wing community is a pretty lousy community.

Get used to it.

Really? Not in my experience at all.

Yep. Completely the opposite of my experiences as well. I've had an incredible amount of fun playing in X-Wing events.

Here's the sad truth:

(1) In X-Wing, like in other competitive dice-based miniature games, people will fudge with their dice. It's pure delusion to think otherwise.

(2) It's incredibly difficult to resolve situations wherein a player has suspicious dice. I've played in about 100 tournament games of X-Wing over the past three years, and I know of two players I'm pretty sure have mucked with their dice. They have very unusual rolling habits, they are very anal about "their" dice versus "your" dice, and they always roll above average. I have never confronted them or anyone else about this, because how do you, really?


If X-Wing ever wants to become a serious competitive game, it will have to start doing what other dice-based games have done. For an event, they have a special set of dice made and all participants must use those dice for the event. It makes entry a bit more expensive, but custom dice become a cool new participation prize to remember the event.

Otherwise question marks will always linger about unusually hot dice. Maybe it was just statistical skew. But maybe it wasn't. Maybe they cooked their dice in a sunbox or oven or microwave. Maybe they drilled small weights into them. Maybe they just bought six or seven core sets and sat around for ten hours finding the most consistently best rolling six dice of each color.

There's no way to know, especially if you don't occasionally confront players like the OP in just these sorts of situations. Could the players and TOs have approached the OP in a more sensitive way? Possibly.

MacrossVF1, on 13 Mar 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

The rules give the option for one player to ask to share dice and templates during a round. That would have been the simplest solution to silence critics instead of changing the dice completely.

They should actually force shared dice during tournaments period. That would end any "Loaded" dice issues. Honestly just share dice at every tournament game and guess what no accusations will arise of loaded dice.

MacrossVF1, on 13 Mar 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

The rules give the option for one player to ask to share dice and templates during a round. That would have been the simplest solution to silence critics instead of changing the dice completely.

They should actually force shared dice during tournaments period. That would end any "Loaded" dice issues. Honestly just share dice at every tournament game and guess what no accusations will arise of loaded dice.

Agreed that it should already be required and that it would help, but it doesn't truly solve the issue.

If a player is playing low agility or no agility ships and they had loaded green dice that were loaded to favor blanks (easier to do with drill-insert-weight alteration for blanks), their opponents would suffer if they were running high agility ships. Conversely, if you were running high agility ships with loaded green dice favoring evades, you'd get a much bigger benefit than opponents using low agility ships.

The entire point that should be taken from this is:

1. The TOs are not equipped nor experienced enough to handle an event of this size (never the less a regional)

2. It was horribly mishandled and when confronted about how it was mishandled, they simply stood fast and made no concession on how it could have been handled differently.

3. They continue to defend their actions through the voice of the TO fiancee and accept no wrong doing whatsoever.

I was Skargoth's final swiss opponent - one of the TOs was my wife - the one who made the decision to speak to the OP and later to you when you started getting loud with the other TO.

Vayn correctly addressed your false claims above - I don't need to go over those again.

Since all of these threads have started popping up everywhere, my wife has been trying to find ways to create accounts to help bring your emotionally-driven and skewed claims more toward actual events. She was able to create an account here last night and has posted once or twice, but the forum moderators haven't yet approved her messages. I also know the store owner gave an extensive explanation of the entire incident which also is sitting in a moderator's inbox to approve. So your statement that the only voice of opposition is Vayn is also incorrect.

Shocking, I know..

I actually never believed there was any cheating taking place - I've experienced worse luck on a regular basis. Skargoth and I were clear on this. He even apologized to me during the match regarding my bad rolls to his good. 6 natural 100's from his HLC and more than 5 natural evades (before tokens or mods, including the auto thrusters) I completely chalked up to horrible luck. But an independent request from an attendee of the event required an answer and a decision. You can read all about it when the store owner's post is finally approved for whichever of your multiple threads he replied to.

On a personal note - beyond the fact that every non-local player my wife has ever greeted in her 2 years-long career as a volunteer TO has expressed their appreciation for her dedication to schedule, to game integrity, to fairness and to friendliness in an accepting atmosphere - and that people have decided to forego attending events upon learning that she would not be the organizer, you need to understand that as a husband - man to man - it took everything I had to allow you to relentlessly speak to her the way I heard you speaking last night. There was no reason for me to invite myself to the conversation as that would have been futile (I realize that, I have a bias), but there's only so far a man can allow his wife to be bullied by somebody like you. You were a hairs-breadth away from it last night, but your continued efforts here (and the multitude of other online forums) have warranted my involvement.

There are at least 35 other attendees of this event that I am 100% confident would confirm that they had an exceptional time and are looking forward to the regional. It's unfortunate that you have decided to instigate this issue to the point of ruining what might have otherwise been a small issue on a great day.

Finally, despite your best efforts, and despite the fact that her kind nature makes these types of confrontations very troubling for her, my wife was laughing and smiling with me today as we ran around town to do our errands. That is the single most important thing to me, and I'm happy that she hasn't let your behavior dampen her spirits.

LoL. I still don't get how nobody seems to care that this home crew apparently went through this guy's stuff while he wasn't looking and that isn't an issue in this store.

The entire point that should be taken from this is:

1. The TOs are not equipped nor experienced enough to handle an event of this size (never the less a regional)

2. It was horribly mishandled and when confronted about how it was mishandled, they simply stood fast and made no concession on how it could have been handled differently.

3. They continue to defend their actions through the voice of the TO fiancee and accept no wrong doing whatsoever.

1. FALSE. The TOs handled 5 rounds of swiss and 3 rounds elimination with a snack break and a dinner break in under 13 hours. The tournament was started on time (or almost... 1 minute late) and there were no delays between rounds.

2. FALSE. The TOs did not mandate any solution, and just had a simple conversation with the player to address the complaints that he had against him, so he wouldn't be ostracized on the forums, like you are so readily doing towards the TOs in the event now.

3. FALSE. You continue to attack them on forums they are not a part of, so it's hard for them to defend themselves personally. This is now the third thread you have participated in (and the only one you have not created) in which you continue to perpetuate your claims that are false. One of which the comments were locked because of the personal attacks that you made against the TOs and shop owner that you promptly deleted after you were told to stop (don't worry, I screened capped all of them).

Let it go man. It's just a game, and your witch hunt is unwarranted. You obviously had a personal vendetta since you started arguing the past week on the event page, and you were just waiting for a reason to complain.

If you maybe spent that energy on your play, then you might have given me that loss that you promised on the facebook post.

On point number 2: both a player and the TO went rifling through a players stuff without asking, that is horrible.

He should have started loudly asking who took his lucky alt art Lando card.

LoL. I still don't get how nobody seems to care that this home crew apparently went through this guy's stuff while he wasn't looking and that isn't an issue in this store.

The person who went through this players dice was NOT (I've been repeatedly refuting this claim by the accuser) related, involved, or affiliated with the shop. Since then, his actions have been brought up to him to ensure it doesn't happen again.

AllWingsStandyingBy, on 13 Mar 2016 - 5:12 PM, said:

Tokyogriz, on 13 Mar 2016 - 5:04 PM, said:

MacrossVF1, on 13 Mar 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:MacrossVF1, on 13 Mar 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

The rules give the option for one player to ask to share dice and templates during a round. That would have been the simplest solution to silence critics instead of changing the dice completely.

They should actually force shared dice during tournaments period. That would end any "Loaded" dice issues. Honestly just share dice at every tournament game and guess what no accusations will arise of loaded dice.

Agreed that it should already be required and that it would help, but it doesn't truly solve the issue.

If a player is playing low agility or no agility ships and they had loaded green dice that were loaded to favor blanks (easier to do with drill-insert-weight alteration for blanks), their opponents would suffer if they were running high agility ships. Conversely, if you were running high agility ships with loaded green dice favoring evades, you'd get a much bigger benefit than opponents using low agility ships.

The current meta is pretty mixed. If you load your personal dice one way or the other you still risk getting exposed or owned by your own dice.

Stores should just provide their own dice for tournament play. This would solve the overall issue, unless the store owner or employee is in on it lol. But really just sharing dice should do the trick. Randomly decide which players dice to use each game.

AllWingsStandyingBy, on 13 Mar 2016 - 5:12 PM, said:

Tokyogriz, on 13 Mar 2016 - 5:04 PM, said:

MacrossVF1, on 13 Mar 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:MacrossVF1, on 13 Mar 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

The rules give the option for one player to ask to share dice and templates during a round. That would have been the simplest solution to silence critics instead of changing the dice completely.

They should actually force shared dice during tournaments period. That would end any "Loaded" dice issues. Honestly just share dice at every tournament game and guess what no accusations will arise of loaded dice.

Agreed that it should already be required and that it would help, but it doesn't truly solve the issue.

If a player is playing low agility or no agility ships and they had loaded green dice that were loaded to favor blanks (easier to do with drill-insert-weight alteration for blanks), their opponents would suffer if they were running high agility ships. Conversely, if you were running high agility ships with loaded green dice favoring evades, you'd get a much bigger benefit than opponents using low agility ships.

The current meta is pretty mixed. If you load your personal dice one way or the other you still risk getting exposed or owned by your own dice.

Stores could just provide their own dice for tournament play. This would solve the overall issue, unless the store owner or employee is in on it lol. But really just sharing dice should do the trick. Randomly decide which players dice to use each game.

LoL. I still don't get how nobody seems to care that this home crew apparently went through this guy's stuff while he wasn't looking and that isn't an issue in this store.

The person who went through this players dice was NOT (I've been repeatedly refuting this claim by the accuser) related, involved, or affiliated with the shop. Since then, his actions have been brought up to him to ensure it doesn't happen again.

"Brought up to him?!?" That guy has got to GO! He should have been immediately asked to leave, man! That is not what happened, though! The way I read it, it seems that the TO performed their own secret investigation BEFORE approaching the player at all. Am I not reading that right?

If I am TOing an event and someone comes up to me saying they monkeyed around with some dude's stuff while he wasn't looking, then my first question is, "You did WHAT?!?" not, "Well let's go take a peek while he isn't around so we can decide whether to confront him."

The whole situation is nuts. As a TO of an event, especially a large event like an SC, you have to be absolutely objective. Aside from the reality that a set of "loaded" or altered dice is pretty unlikely, things just have to be done above board or people will question the venue's integrity in the future.

Like I said earlier, though, not my event. *shrug*

Getting your opponent off balance is one key element for any direct competitive sports.

Except this is not a competitive sport. This is a game where two people push toy spaceships around a mat. Yes, it has tournaments, and there are prizes for winning. But to compare it to competitive sport is ridiculous.

Dr Zoidberg, on 13 Mar 2016 - 6:27 PM, said:

SEApocalypse, on 13 Mar 2016 - 05:26 AM, said:

Getting your opponent off balance is one key element for any direct competitive sports.

Except this is not a competitive sport. This is a game where two people push toy spaceships around a mat. Yes, it has tournaments, and there are prizes for winning. But to compare it to competitive sport is ridiculous.

It is competitive just like sports hence its a fair comparison. I don't consider pro football baseball etc to be much value but would rather play this game. Hence to me this is just as competitive and has greater value than what others see as hitting and throwing a small ball around as being so important. Other than good exercise most pro sports are just as trivial and really as meaningless in the big picture as x wing.

Its not worth cheating or getting all up in arms about either though. But if we are spending our time and passion on something for a cheater to try to manipulate it would take the fun out of the game.

LoL. I still don't get how nobody seems to care that this home crew apparently went through this guy's stuff while he wasn't looking and that isn't an issue in this store.

The person who went through this players dice was NOT (I've been repeatedly refuting this claim by the accuser) related, involved, or affiliated with the shop. Since then, his actions have been brought up to him to ensure it doesn't happen again.

"Brought up to him?!?" That guy has got to GO! He should have been immediately asked to leave, man! That is not what happened, though! The way I read it, it seems that the TO performed their own secret investigation BEFORE approaching the player at all. Am I not reading that right?

If I am TOing an event and someone comes up to me saying they monkeyed around with some dude's stuff while he wasn't looking, then my first question is, "You did WHAT?!?" not, "Well let's go take a peek while he isn't around so we can decide whether to confront him."

The whole situation is nuts. As a TO of an event, especially a large event like an SC, you have to be absolutely objective. Aside from the reality that a set of "loaded" or altered dice is pretty unlikely, things just have to be done above board or people will question the venue's integrity in the future.

Like I said earlier, though, not my event. *shrug*

The player wasn't asked to leave because he was already eliminated. He was out of the shop before the drama started. Since then, he's been told to not touch someone's stuff again.

I don't doubt this was a bad move on the player's part, but the TO can't be responsible when they were being shown something that they had no idea of who it belonged to (in fact, the TOs continuously asked the players not to mention who's ship was who's when determining any rulings).

I sit here in defense of the TOs because as far as rulings and organization of event, they did an exceptional job. This whole situation got blown out of proportion because there was a claim of cheating, and this is not something that you can expect in a community in which you would trust to not have to police over grown men playing with little plastic ships for little plastic prizes.

What the TO should have/shouldn't have done is all subjective now, because they are not ruling based on fact, but of opinion. The TO would have been equally blasted for not taking action after receiving multiple complaints towards a single player.

This was further amplified by his friends making a scene and continously making false claims and defaming the store, TOs, and players on forums, instead of just sending a message to FFG regarding their concerns.

It was a late day and a judgement call was made. As I've seen in responses made on the multitude of posts about this situation, opinions are divided on if the TO did the right or wrong thing. On the matter of touching other people's property, it was wrong for the player to do so and not notify the TO first. But the TO shouldn't be responsible to babysit everyone's property and if the player had a problem of others going through his stuff he needed to walk up and say something. In his OP he apparently felt "flattered", as he was watching it happen. It wasn't done in secret, he was in the same room. If he didn't have a problem with it why is it an issue?

LoL. I still don't get how nobody seems to care that this home crew apparently went through this guy's stuff while he wasn't looking and that isn't an issue in this store.

Got it in one. Possession is 9/10ths of the law, except at this store apparently, where it is considered appropriate to rifle through another persons things while they aren't looking. Regardless of the accusation of loaded dice, this alone would be enough for me not to return.

There's two sides to every story and the truth is somewhere there in the middle usually. I believe the store posted that they didn't touch his stuff.

There's two sides to every story and the truth is somewhere there in the middle usually. I believe the store posted that they didn't touch his stuff.

'The store' might not have. But one of the OP's accusers alone, and then in the company of a TO, did before involving the OP himself.

But frankly, it doesn't matter who did it. At the end of the day, somebody's property was rifled through without their prior knowledge or consent. If it requires law enforcement officials a warrant to undertake such activity - otherwise it constitutes an illegal search - at the very least, some random at an X-Wing event can have the common decency to speak to the person whose property it is first.

The competitive X-Wing community is a pretty lousy community.

Get used to it.

Huh? You think the X-Wing community is bad, the W40K tournament scene would destroy your faith in humanity.

That's really insulting.

I never had any faith to begin with.

There's two sides to every story and the truth is somewhere there in the middle usually. I believe the store posted that they didn't touch his stuff.

'The store' might not have. But one of the OP's accusers alone, and then in the company of a TO, did before involving the OP himself.

But frankly, it doesn't matter who did it. At the end of the day, somebody's property was rifled through without their prior knowledge or consent. If it requires law enforcement officials a warrant to undertake such activity - otherwise it constitutes an illegal search - at the very least, some random at an X-Wing event can have the common decency to speak to the person whose property it is first.

Your absolutely right. So why didn't the player in question approach the other player, the TO's or anyone else about someone going through his stuff? Like I said the TO was called over after the fact and was not aware she was seeing someone else's dice being investigated. The player was RIGHT there. It's a big room but his stuff was in open sight of him. He even said he watched it happen.

The "law" never went through his stuff, if you want to use that analogy. This is as if a third party unrelated to the law rifled through someones property and then brought it up to the police for evidence. That evidence wouldn't be admissible, which exactly mirrors the situation we are talking about. The TOs did not make any claims, made the player aware about the claims (in case he was wondering, why was the TO called to look at my dice) and was told the situation would be dropped and he could proceed as normal. He chose not to and to roll another set of dice.

You're making a "criminal investigation" analogy like thats what it was. Please. Nobody was trying to be shady and secretly tampering with other peoples property, "quick, before he turns around". This was a situation that started off on the wrong foot on all participating parties and however it would be resolved, someone was going to be sour grapes on the forums right after. We'd be sitting here hearing about how a player that told a TO that someone might have been cheating and was told promptly to GTFO without addressing his concerns and people would be jumping on that bandwagon.