There are multiple relevant ways to measure during combat.

By Vorpal Sword, in X-Wing

This seems to be a point of confusion that's come up a lot lately, and I thought it might help some people understand a particular category of interactions if I made this point explicitly. Every attack has two range measurements. We usually ignore one of them, and sometimes they're the same, but they're always there.

When a ship becomes the active ship in the Combat phase, the first step is Declare Target. During this step, you're allowed to measure from the active ship to other ships to determine range, as well as to check whether ships are in your firing arc. Once you've declared a target, there's one and only one range for that attack--the attacker and defender never have different ranges for the same attack. The range of the attack is used to determine what weapons you can use against that target, and it also determines what range modifiers apply to the attack.

But the range of the attack is not necessarily the same as the distance between the two ships.

Usually, those two measurements will be the same. If you're attacking with a turret, for instance, range is always measured from the closest point of the attacker to the closest point of the defender--which is also how you measure the distance between the two ships.

And even if you're attacking using a regular primary attack, the distance between your ship and the target of your attack will be the same as the range of the attack. But the range of the attack is measured within the attacker's firing arc, so it's possible for the closest point on an enemy ship to be outside the attacker's firing arc. And in that case, it's possible to measure different ranges.

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Let's use Carnor Jax as an example for how this could come up in play:

carnor_jax_web.png

His ability clearly doesn't depend on the range of the attack, because it works during the activation phase too, and it works on ships he's not attacking or defending against. So Carnor's ability must be based on the distance between him and an enemy ship.

And that means that if he's attacking an enemy, there are multiple range measurements you have to make. The first is the range of the attack, and the other is the distance between Carnor Jax and the enemy ship. It's perfectly possible to have Carnor make a Range 2 attack (as measured within Carnor's firing arc), with Carnor at Range 1 (as measured from the closest point on Carnor's base to the closest point on the defender's base). All you have to do is imagine a situation where the closest point of the defender's base is out of his firing arc, and just inside Range 1.

In that case, the attack is at Range 2, so Carnor doesn't get an extra red die. But the defender is still at Range 1 of Carnor, so it still can't spend focus or evade tokens to modify its defense roll.

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This isn't at all a new rule: it's been implied, although not stated directly, since the very beginning of the game. But it's usually the result of a corner case of maneuvering and geometry, so it doesn't come up much. As more game elements are introduced, though, it seems likely that it will come up increasingly often. So when you're at the table, remember that there is always the potential for multiple measurements during combat. You can't measure once for the range of your attack and then assume it's time to put the range ruler away.

(If and when you respond to this post, please please don't bring up Autothrusters or The Inquisitor. There are plenty of other places to have that debate, and I'm not interested in engaging with it here. Instead, I'm trying to make sure everyone has the relevant framework to understand what that debate is even about.)

I'm going to assume that a similar situation to your Carnor example can come up with TLT vs AT. Say the closest point between the TLT carrier and the target with AT is range 2 out of arc, however part of the targets base is within arc just not it's nearest point. As long as this is all happening within range 2 AT will not kick in, correct?

I'm going to assume that a similar situation to your Carnor example can come up with TLT vs AT. Say the closest point between the TLT carrier and the target with AT is range 2 out of arc, however part of the targets base is within arc just not it's nearest point. As long as this is all happening within range 2 AT will not kick in, correct?

True, but the reason isn't exactly the same. Range measurements for turrets are made separately from determinations about whether a ship is in-arc, you could find that a ship is in arc, and the range of the attack (as measured from closest point to closest point, because the attack is made with a turret) is Range 2. And in that case, Autothrusters wouldn't trigger.

Once you've declared a target, there's one and only one range for that attack--the attacker and defender never have different ranges for the same attack. The range of the attack is used to determine what weapons you can use against that target, and it also determines what range modifiers apply to the attack.

Exactly. (Emphasis mine.)

...And that means that if he's attacking an enemy, there are multiple range measurements you have to make. The first is the range of the attack, and the other is the distance between Carnor Jax and the enemy ship. It's perfectly possible to have Carnor make a Range 2 attack (as measured within Carnor's firing arc), with Carnor at Range 1 (as measured from the closest point on Carnor's base to the closest point on the defender's base). All you have to do is imagine a situation where the closest point of the defender's base is out of his firing arc, and just inside Range 1.

In that case, the attack is at Range 2, so Carnor doesn't get an extra red die. But the defender is still at Range 1 of Carnor, so it still can't spend focus or evade tokens to modify its defense roll...

I might be reading this wrong, but if the defender is outside Carnor's firing arc then surely Carnor can't fire at him, either at range 1 or range 2?

Carnor's ability would affect any enemy ship at range 1 regardless of arc, so that ship would not be able to spend Focus or Evade tokens against any of the other ships in Carnor's list that were attacking it.

Remembering to take the range measurement against a ship that's out of Carnor's firing arc during the Combat Phase is the biggie for spending tokens, however, the range measurement for Carnor's ability would also have to be taken at the end of the Activation Phase to see if any of the opponent's ships were within range 1. If so, they would be denied their Evade or Focus actions.

Cheers

Baaa

Edited by Baaa

...And that means that if he's attacking an enemy, there are multiple range measurements you have to make. The first is the range of the attack, and the other is the distance between Carnor Jax and the enemy ship. It's perfectly possible to have Carnor make a Range 2 attack (as measured within Carnor's firing arc), with Carnor at Range 1 (as measured from the closest point on Carnor's base to the closest point on the defender's base). All you have to do is imagine a situation where the closest point of the defender's base is out of his firing arc, and just inside Range 1.

In that case, the attack is at Range 2, so Carnor doesn't get an extra red die. But the defender is still at Range 1 of Carnor, so it still can't spend focus or evade tokens to modify its defense roll...

I might be reading this wrong, but if the defender is outside Carnor's firing arc then surely Carnor can't fire at him, either at range 1 or range 2?

Carnor's ability would affect any enemy ship at range 1 regardless of arc, so that ship would not be able to spend Focus or Evade tokens against any of the other ships in Carnor's list that were attacking it.

Remembering to take the range measurement against a ship that's out of Carnor's firing arc is the biggie.

Cheers

Baaa

I can't put up a diagram right now, so my apologies for that. But what I'm talking about in the quoted passage is a situation where Jax has some portion of the target's base at Range 2 in arc, but the closest point of the target is out of arc.

...And that means that if he's attacking an enemy, there are multiple range measurements you have to make. The first is the range of the attack, and the other is the distance between Carnor Jax and the enemy ship. It's perfectly possible to have Carnor make a Range 2 attack (as measured within Carnor's firing arc), with Carnor at Range 1 (as measured from the closest point on Carnor's base to the closest point on the defender's base). All you have to do is imagine a situation where the closest point of the defender's base is out of his firing arc, and just inside Range 1.

In that case, the attack is at Range 2, so Carnor doesn't get an extra red die. But the defender is still at Range 1 of Carnor, so it still can't spend focus or evade tokens to modify its defense roll...

I might be reading this wrong, but if the defender is outside Carnor's firing arc then surely Carnor can't fire at him, either at range 1 or range 2?

Carnor's ability would affect any enemy ship at range 1 regardless of arc, so that ship would not be able to spend Focus or Evade tokens against any of the other ships in Carnor's list that were attacking it.

Remembering to take the range measurement against a ship that's out of Carnor's firing arc is the biggie.

Cheers

Baaa

I can't put up a diagram right now, so my apologies for that. But what I'm talking about in the quoted passage is a situation where Jax has some portion of the target's base at Range 2 in arc, but the closest point of the target is out of arc.

I edited whilst you were posting, sorry.

Cheers

Baaa

It's quite possible for Carnor to be targeted by a Heavy Laser Cannon and still have his ability prevent the use of focus tokens by that attacker.

Unless that Heavy Laser Cannon is on an Outrider.

:)

I mean auto thrusters and tactician are the most common examples...?