So I'm all for an amazing Executor Super Star Destroyer for Armada, being an Imperial Centered player. But the one key point that needs to be solved is balance.

I think the other thread on the ship beat this topic to death. Basically, it's one of two things:

• FFG decides that the ship was more of a 'command ship'/carrier literally...with little or no armament, itself...nor even game-breaking shields or defenses...just a TON of fighters and command and control/fleet support abilities (IMHO, unlikely, but certainly the easiest way to handle it)
• Armada gets its own 'Epic' scale, with doubled everything (more problematic to my mind - where on earth could you possibly find 12' x 3' of play space?!), and the ship is the nightmare super-battleship so many people (and certainly the EU) seem to want. But, obviously, only playable in Armada-Epic...not regular-scale or tournament games.

So, I've seen a fair bit of discussion on how you'd treat the SSD to keep it balanced. There's the obvious high points cost, but who wants a ship that makes your navy a single ship versus a flotilla?

There's the valid point of the insane levels of armor, shielding, and weapons this beast would carry.

There's also the concern of size, even given the sliding scale.

To these points, I'd have to say;

1. Size of the miniature: I feel the size is a non-issue. I have the Collector Fleet electronic SSD, and it's about the length of the X-Wing Corvette. I don't think it would break the game that badly size-wise to scale it up just a bit beefier, maybe another 4 to 6 inches or so longer. This should drop the price point at around the same range as the X-Wing Corvette (perhaps 50.00 dollars higher?). A little steep, sure, but hardly a bank breaker.

2. Points cost: I don't have the cards in front of me, but I feel safe in saying if you fielded this beast, the rebel player is probably dropping 2 to 3 MC-80's, several CR-90's, a couple of Assault Frigates, etc. Say, between 2 to 4 of each rebel ship out so far? So yeah, I trust FFG to make the points cost fall in line to balance.

3. Making it balance: Now here we probably have to think outside the box. I don't like the idea of just giving the SSD an insane cost and calling it a day. However, I've seen some talk in the threads about how we might treat Platforms and Space Stations, and it got me thinking. What if...

Instead of giving the SSD an insane shield and hull code, we were to split the ship into zones, and give each hull zone properties. Essentially, treat each section as if it were a ship. Each section would have its own hull code, shields, fire arcs, as well as some synergistic abilities. Players could hammer down and disable/destroy sections of the ship, reducing it's overall effectiveness, while still keeping it on the table and having it be a threat.

It would also add a thematic element to its role in the game. Aft section destroyed; ship can no longer maneuver and weapons in this arc can no longer fire. Forward section destroyed; weapons in this arc may no longer fire, command dials and may no longer be used, commander removed from game (symbolic of the bridge being destroyed). Not sure what to do for port and starboard, but I'm sure something could be cooked up.

Myself, I think I'd prefer this over seeing it come out with insane numbers of attack dice that all fire every round until you chew through its 6 point shields and then do like 18 to 24 damage to its hull.

Just a thought.

Wow thank you guys, great points all around. That would be something I'd be satisfied with those rules if i played as Rebels

The poop-storm that's going to occur when the new wave is released and everyone disagrees on what should have been in it is going to be downright magical.

FFG Troll Level: 9.5

To be fair...FFG *reaaaaalllllly* likes re-using art between their game series.

Still, only looks like a single picture of the Executor, there, which makes it a bit more of a stretch.

(Compare an earlier announcement with no less than 3 new paintings of Ahsoka Tano. THAT one points, to me, more like a sure thing that some other games are going to see her show up. Maybe Jun Sato's Pelta-class 'Phoenix Home'? Or CR90-type 'Liberator'?)

I strongly suspect she'll at least show up in Imperial Assaault. Need to watch Rebels, not sure where she would fit in Armada without a Clone Wars expansion.

FFG Troll Level: 9.5

To be fair...FFG *reaaaaalllllly* likes re-using art between their game series.

Still, only looks like a single picture of the Executor, there, which makes it a bit more of a stretch.

(Compare an earlier announcement with no less than 3 new paintings of Ahsoka Tano. THAT one points, to me, more like a sure thing that some other games are going to see her show up. Maybe Jun Sato's Pelta-class 'Phoenix Home'? Or CR90-type 'Liberator'?)

I strongly suspect she'll at least show up in Imperial Assaault. Need to watch Rebels, not sure where she would fit in Armada without a Clone Wars expansion.

Well, as noted, she is an adviser to the rebel cell surrounding Commander Jun Sato - so she appears on his flagship the 'Phoenix Home' until Vader destroys it, then she's on the 'Liberator'. And of course she shows up on the 'Ghost' (the VCX-100 freighter that is one of the stars of the series) routinely - I expect that one could make it into Armada as a fighter-scale unit, a la the "Rogues and Villains" pack. This rebel cell also just captured an Imperial Light Carrier (the old WEG 'Quasar Fire'-style ship), which is acting as their main base until they find a planet to hole up on - this was literally two episodes ago, so I'm pretty sure we'll see Ahsoka on that ship, too.

(As to IA....GODS, YES, PLEASE - A LOTHAL EXPANSION!! Also: yeah, you gotta watch that show. It's basically the old West End Games RPGs brought to the screen.)

Have to confess when I saw that photo my first thought was the trigger had been pulled. Unfortunately my marriage and my bank account both breathed a sigh of relief when I realized this was the card game. Man, kids don't have to eat every day, do they? (Apparently they do. Who knew?)

Yeah, but you can feed them Raman noodles for a few meals a week to get an SSD. So-so nutrition is temporary, an SSD model will be passed down from father to son...

If only there was a way to do it that didn't involve loss of Marital benefits.

Man. All I can say is this is heartfelt. Word, my bruthuh. Word. (Hey, mind if I crash on your couch while I get situated. The fam will come around eventually. It shouldn't be too long. They are mostly reasonable. Mostly.)

Have to confess when I saw that photo my first thought was the trigger had been pulled. Unfortunately my marriage and my bank account both breathed a sigh of relief when I realized this was the card game. Man, kids don't have to eat every day, do they? (Apparently they do. Who knew?)

Making kids forage for their own food teaches them the value of money and also frees up time for you and your friends to not be interrupted while gaming. I do recommend giving them a field guide so it doesn't turn out to be a game of Oregon Trail where old Jonny died over there after eating the wrong mushroom. Then again saving money on a field guide will buy you an entire ship, PLUS you are teaching the science of survival of the fittest where each survivors learns on their own that those who live end up with more college money and don't have to go to community college, but Indiana University instead...shameless plug :-).

Again, I would so love to have this ship..... it would be freakin HUGE!! But I want other ships first! Sorry Guys!

Rebel scum.

this is the correct response.

Admiral Nelson, we should hang out. I dig the way you think (unless you're on the other side of the table. Then you are the whiniest jedi that kisses his sister).

Again, I would so love to have this ship..... it would be freakin HUGE!! But I want other ships first! Sorry Guys!

Rebel scum.

this is the correct response.

Yup.

THIS... ... is how big it'll be too we think.

@ Joe Boss

Thanks! I actually took a couple of pictures to show size comparisons to back up my point earlier but didn't get them uploaded. The size of the Collector Fleet isn't bad, but I do actually hope they beef it up just a bit. I don't think another few inches would be too much. I think that size would work nicely if that were an Imp class next to her, and not a Victory.

After that, it's just all about how they balance her and how she plays. I agree it should be an absolute beast, but then again, the Executor went down faster than (insert favorite joke here) in Jedi. After all, one fighter sweep to the deflectors and an A-Wing to the bridge was all she wrote.

Sorry, but I just ain't buying it unless it's twice the length of the Raider. FFG could totally do it, and sure it'd be $200, but I mean...it's a freaking SUPER STAR DESTROYER. However they handle it (command ship/carrier with minimal armament in the base game, or super-dreadnought in Epic-only scale), it's still a gigantic beast that should *dwarf* everything else on the table.

Double the Raider length, or go home!

Id rather it be smaller and play well then super huge and too clunky to be fun. Gameplay>everything else.

@Xanderf

Honestly (presuming you're serious ), if it was twice the length of the Raider from X-Wing, I'm willing to bet the cost would land between 300.00 and 400.00. The broad-head arrow design put a lot more material into it than you might think verses the Raider and its far more streamlined design/lack of superstructure.

And while I agree with you regarding the dwarfing size, we're talking about a game where the CR-90 should be able to fit inside the landing bay of the Imperial class Star Destroyer; that's three-quarters of an inch long.

So with respect to all views, we already have a ship that should dwarf most of what is on the table, doesn't, and folks are using them anyway.

Still...

The CR-90 to Imperial Star Destroyer size ratio is almost 11:1, making it roughly the same size differentiation between the Imp and the SSD. Applying that ratio, the SSD should come in at about 26 to 28 inches, just as you (and many of us, I'm sure) would love to see.

However, it's a sliding scale. If we reduced it to around 18 inches (the length of the Raider plus about 4-6 inches) that still puts it just over 2 times the size of the Imp, while potentially keeping it playable.

No matter what they do, I think it's safe to say not everyone will be happy. Whether they make the ship or not.

@Xanderf

Honestly (presuming you're serious ), if it was twice the length of the Raider from X-Wing, I'm willing to bet the cost would land between 300.00 and 400.00. The broad-head arrow design put a lot more material into it than you might think verses the Raider and its far more streamlined design/lack of superstructure.

And while I agree with you regarding the dwarfing size, we're talking about a game where the CR-90 should be able to fit inside the landing bay of the Imperial class Star Destroyer; that's three-quarters of an inch long.

So with respect to all views, we already have a ship that should dwarf most of what is on the table, doesn't, and folks are using them anyway.

Still...

The CR-90 to Imperial Star Destroyer size ratio is almost 11:1, making it roughly the same size differentiation between the Imp and the SSD. Applying that ratio, the SSD should come in at about 26 to 28 inches, just as you (and many of us, I'm sure) would love to see.

However, it's a sliding scale. If we reduced it to around 18 inches (the length of the Raider plus about 4-6 inches) that still puts it just over 2 times the size of the Imp, while potentially keeping it playable.

No matter what they do, I think it's safe to say not everyone will be happy. Whether they make the ship or not.

Can I just drop the obligatory comment that we should really all just get over ourselves with regard to scale in this game and accept that things have to be designed for a certain level of playability?

Given that space is massive, and turbolasers can allegedly travel many, many kilometers and then some in space, unless you want to argue with me about how your game table should be many football fields in size (at a minimum) to acknowledge the realities of distance in space and our long range ruler would need a small army of people to transport it, let's just all accept that it's an abstraction for the sake of usability and as long as things are roughly sized visually and internally consistent (e.g. all the parts of a corvette are in scale with the corvette), it's fine, yes?

@Reinholt

Behind you 100% there. That sentiment is essentially what I meant. That the scale is already all over the place ship to ship so it's impractical to argue the SSD should somehow be held to scale. And honestly (for me anyway), it's not the scale issue as much as I want to see this beast actually be a beast. I just want it as large as possible and still able to work in the confines of the rules, regardless of its final measurements.

I'm reminded of what someone once said to me regarding AD&D; "Injecting too much reality into a game is a sure way to ruin that game."

I do have to stand by what I said in closing though; no matter what they chose to do, they'll never please everyone.

Given that space is massive, and turbolasers can allegedly travel many, many kilometers and then some in space, unless you want to argue with me about how your game table should be many football fields in size (at a minimum) to acknowledge the realities of distance in space and our long range ruler would need a small army of people to transport it, let's just all accept that it's an abstraction for the sake of usability and as long as things are roughly sized visually and internally consistent (e.g. all the parts of a corvette are in scale with the corvette), it's fine, yes?

Eh, I don't think that's true. I just think the Star Wars "galaxy" (while both a long time ago, AND far, far, away) is simply very different from ours. For one thing - everything is closer together. In 'our galaxy', an "asteroid field" will have one asteroid you can see at a time - if that. Even the rings of Saturn aren't as dense with large rocks as the rings/asteroid fields we see in Episodes II and V.

Nevermind that humans can apparently go into space in the Star Wars galaxy with nothing but a helmet - pressure suit absolutely (and repeatedly proven to be) not required. Hell, Han and company were walking around an asteroid (plainly too small to hold an atmosphere) without even a full helmet - just a rebreather mask!

Which makes it pretty clear that even "outer space" in the Star Wars galaxy isn't full vacuum that it is in ours.

While EU sources try to apply "our galaxy" physics to the Star Wars tech and come up with weapon ranges that are 'many, many kilometers' long - we really don't see anything that would indicate that on-screen, ever. Ships pull up right next to each other to let fly with broadsides in nearly every movie - hardly any different than we'd see in the age of sail.

were walking around an asteroid (plainly too small to hold an atmosphere) without even a full helmet - just a rebreather mask!

To be Pedantic, they were not on the Asteroid when they were walking around.

They were inside a creature.

And who knows, what with bodily gasses and all....

Given that space is massive, and turbolasers can allegedly travel many, many kilometers and then some in space, unless you want to argue with me about how your game table should be many football fields in size (at a minimum) to acknowledge the realities of distance in space and our long range ruler would need a small army of people to transport it, let's just all accept that it's an abstraction for the sake of usability and as long as things are roughly sized visually and internally consistent (e.g. all the parts of a corvette are in scale with the corvette), it's fine, yes?

Eh, I don't think that's true. I just think the Star Wars "galaxy" (while both a long time ago, AND far, far, away) is simply very different from ours. For one thing - everything is closer together. In 'our galaxy', an "asteroid field" will have one asteroid you can see at a time - if that. Even the rings of Saturn aren't as dense with large rocks as the rings/asteroid fields we see in Episodes II and V.

Nevermind that humans can apparently go into space in the Star Wars galaxy with nothing but a helmet - pressure suit absolutely (and repeatedly proven to be) not required. Hell, Han and company were walking around an asteroid (plainly too small to hold an atmosphere) without even a full helmet - just a rebreather mask!

Which makes it pretty clear that even "outer space" in the Star Wars galaxy isn't full vacuum that it is in ours.

While EU sources try to apply "our galaxy" physics to the Star Wars tech and come up with weapon ranges that are 'many, many kilometers' long - we really don't see anything that would indicate that on-screen, ever. Ships pull up right next to each other to let fly with broadsides in nearly every movie - hardly any different than we'd see in the age of sail.

I would give them some creative license here, as truly realistic depictions of space combat that occur beyond visual range and are primarily conducted via expert mathematics don't play well on screen.

Otherwise, we have the weird situation of the ships being orders of magnitude faster than the weapons being fired at them (comparing the rate at which they travel to the on-screen travel rate of blaster bolts), which begs the question of WHY DO YOU EVER HOLD STILL SO THEY CAN SHOOT YOU?

It would be like getting shot when you can run faster than a bullet can fly, and weren't surprised.

My point is this: applying even approximate levels of real physics (unless we truly want to start arguing that physics are totally different in Star Wars, which is going to open a Pandora's box and then some) tells you that approximation must occur to have a playable game. I mean, is anyone really fussed that the squadrons aren't tiny little plastic dots with no detail that are barely visible?

So whatever FFG does, if they choose to produce a super star destroyer, will have approximations for the sake of playability, meaning it's going to top out at about the size of the large ships for X-wing right now.

Otherwise we are back to my previous idea of electromagnets to create a floating death star.

were walking around an asteroid (plainly too small to hold an atmosphere) without even a full helmet - just a rebreather mask!

To be Pedantic, they were not on the Asteroid when they were walking around.

They were inside a creature.

And who knows, what with bodily gasses and all....

Sure, but they didn't know that at the time. IE., Han Solo and crew thought they were going to be walking out into an empty tunnel on an asteroid in the middle of deep space, and decided in that situation 'sure, we just need oxygen masks and we'll be fine'.

I think it's safe to say the 'space', in the Star Wars galaxy, is just not very much like our space at all. (I mean, heck, the whole 'space isn't a vacuum in the the Star Wars galaxy' actually would explain why the fighters appear to have aerodynamic elements to them and 'swoop around' like WW2 fighters.

Otherwise, we have the weird situation of the ships being orders of magnitude faster than the weapons being fired at them (comparing the rate at which they travel to the on-screen travel rate of blaster bolts), which begs the question of WHY DO YOU EVER HOLD STILL SO THEY CAN SHOOT YOU?

Eh - not sure I follow. Turbolaser blasts definitely go faster than every ship in the movies I've seen? I mean, not much faster* - but that difference in speed is probably why they close to such (ridiculously) short ranges to engage in combat (I mean, seriously, the battle in Episodes VI and III were practically age-of-sail-broadside distances).

Watching the opening sequence of Episode IV is actually telling in that regard - you can see the Star Destroyer firing on the Tantive IV, and the blasts traveling to the target. Obviously going faster than the target...but not SO much faster that it instantly hits. Very much like, actually, an age-of-sail cannonball shot at another sailing ship. Slow enough you can see it overtaking the target, but fast enough that it doesn't really matter.

@Xanderf

*humor on*

That's why Star Wars is space/fantasy and Star Trek is science fiction. (ducks the thrown rocks, shoes, Molotov Cocktails, and artillery strikes)

*humor off*

To no one in particular, I think it's easily explained; George Lucas is a writer/director, not a scientist (lord, don't make someone bring up parsecs...). I know it's easy to get caught up with our love of a fictional universe, but at times we need to remember to take a massive step back and never attempt to put real world physics to a universe spawned entirely from the imagination. "Reality" has as much place in Star Wars as it does in Dungeons and Dragons; there should be just enough to suspend disbelief.

@Xanderf

*humor on*

That's why Star Wars is space/fantasy and Star Trek is science fiction. (ducks the thrown rocks, shoes, Molotov Cocktails, and artillery strikes)

*humor off*

To no one in particular, I think it's easily explained; George Lucas is a writer/director, not a scientist (lord, don't make someone bring up parsecs...). I know it's easy to get caught up with our love of a fictional universe, but at times we need to remember to take a massive step back and never attempt to put real world physics to a universe spawned entirely from the imagination. "Reality" has as much place in Star Wars as it does in Dungeons and Dragons; there should be just enough to suspend disbelief.

Right, but that's my point.

You can't say "the universe already abstracts away distance because in reality the weapon ranges would be off the table". It's not a meaningful observation, because whether or not weapons ranges should be 'off the table' in our reality - it is irrelevant, here. In Star Wars, they are not. We see the ships IN THE FILMS pulling up right next to each other and slugging it out at close ranges (ranges well within ship-length-distance) as the normal means of combat. As that's what we see on screen, we can hand-wave away how things 'should' work - it's a different galaxy, they don't work that way, there. IE., we never see any long-distance "beyond visual range" shots taken.

Rather, things work they work the way they do on screen, and (happily) in this game.

Right. Ooorrrrrr.... We can say that showing a fleet in space firing a volley of invisible beams from energy weapons at nothing, and then camera tracking that unseen volley through the void to the other fleet, who is invisibly returning fire at nothing, like some kind of galactic tennis match without the ball, wouldn't be nearly as thematic and adrenaline inducing as a toe to toe brawl of dreadnoughts that are so close you could have suited infantry on the hulls lobbing grenades at each other.

The scenes in the movie are fictional (and yes, I know we all know this). My point is and was any reality is irrelevant here. Lucas didn't do any of those space battles with accuracy to any kind of physics in mind, he said "Make this stuff look awesome!" Okay, I paraphrase.

"I think it's safe to say the 'space', in the Star Wars galaxy, is just not very much like our space at all. (I mean, heck, the whole 'space isn't a vacuum in the the Star Wars galaxy' actually would explain why the fighters appear to have aerodynamic elements to them and 'swoop around' like WW2 fighters." ~~ Xanderf

Uhm...no it isn't. Not really. They move like that in the movie because when Star Wars was made, they used actual footage from WW2 dogfights to create the star fighter battles. This is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned trying to inject "reality" into fantasy; coming up with a fictional explanation to justify part of something that was never intended to be anything more than entertainment and a toy line. It's taking it too seriously.

Sure the game needs rules, and that means we have to lay some groundwork for how things interact. Not to be "more realistic" (scale and ability issues) or explain away patent inconsistencies, but to prevent exactly what is kind of going on here; disagreements on how/why something does or does not work.

I don't know...maybe we actually see eye to eye on this and are talking past each other. What say we just have a drink and agree they need to make the Executor?

--edit--

As a fig leaf gesture of goodwill, I concede that if you accepted the idea that space in the Star Wars galaxy had at least some level of atmosphere (anyone want to calculate how much you'd need?) that would explain movement, why the weapon ranges are limited, and why there is sound in space, and how the heck the Executor's bridge produced so much flame in what should have been a vacuum. It actually would explain a lot.

But for me? That's bordering way too close to Spell Jammer territory for my liking.

Otherwise we are back to my previous idea of electromagnets to create a floating death star.

This. This must be done. Someone crowd fund this man.