wfrp demo a bust

By Cynicalmisfit, in 2009 WFRP The Emperor's Decree Event

Posted at

I recently ran the demo for the new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd edition box set that arrived at my local hobby store. I read the rules which seemed sparse and at a point convoluted at best and set to put together the cards and such for the pregenerated characters. Sadly I was only able to use 3 of the 4 supplied pregenerated characters as there was not enough "Tactic" cards available to play both the Envoy and the Apprentice Wizard.

I set about getting things ready with various passers by asking various rules questions about the game. I will say my memory of parts of the systems was shoddy at best, but what answers I could give was with either demostration or explanation of the game and it's components. Most stated that it looked like a boardgame, some fans of the 2nd edition were appalled at how fiddly the system had become, but suffice to say the general concensus was not positive. I was able to wrangle together 3 people to run things and test the game out. There were a few spots in the rules that we did incorrectly and had to be hand waived or redone but it all went as smooth as it could being a completely new game and all.

After the demo was over (people refused to play after the first encounter stating that it was just not fun at all) I asked the 3 people involved to give me some feedback, this is what I can recall from memory:

  • The propietary dice were not needed, why could'nt they have just used regular dice found in most hobby stores.
  • The cards did not simplify rules look up and why could'nt they just put the in a rulebook and be written down on a character sheet.
  • The initiative tracking system using the Stance Meter just complicated matters and we resorted to using names written down on a dry erase board.
  • The recharge mechanics for ability cards was not needed and why could'nt they just have a "tap" and "un-tap" type of mechanic.
  • Accruing fatigue from any action outside of the free one every person got was not enough to preform even the most basic functions during combat and felt like it was penalizing player creativness.
  • There was not enough dice of one or two types in certain situations to be able to roll all the dice at once and some dice needed to be rerolled.
  • Had more people that wanted to try out the system but had to be turned away because A) The single combat that was run took way too long to the point the store had to close and B)With only the materials supplied the demo could only be run for a maximum of 3 people.
  • In order for a Game Master to keep track of multiple monster and their wounds one would have to place the wound cards near said monster to keep track and make copies of the various monsters involved in the adventure to be able to place recharge tokens on the various ability "cards"the monsters had.
  • 100$ retail? it costs way too much for anyone wanting to get in to a Warhammer rpg.

I'm sure I could go on but I think you get the idea. All in all the response to the demo was all around negative and was finally decided in a brief discussion after the demo that this was a crudely thought out version of a Warhammer rpg and would not do well in the store that it was demo'd at or in the immediate area.

On a personal note, I would like to say that I do not like it at all that FFG charged my local game store $40 to get the demo in as there was absolutely no mention of being charged to get the demo in anywhere in the sign up web page or information they gave on the website. In all of the years I have ever run demos for game companies has any company charged for demo material.

In conclusion the demo was a bust and the store is out $40. It was a negative experience to endure and I wish FFG all the luck in the future with their games and their company.

Good Day

Posted at

Cynicalmisfit said:

I recently ran the demo for the new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd edition box set that arrived at my local hobby store. I read the rules which seemed sparse and at a point convoluted at best and set to put together the cards and such for the pregenerated characters. Sadly I was only able to use 3 of the 4 supplied pregenerated characters as there was not enough "Tactic" cards available to play both the Envoy and the Apprentice Wizard.

ok your completely wrong here! There are enough cards for 5 PC's....trust me people...ive looked at the box. Secondly the Apprentice wizard doesnt use tactic cards and there are enough cards for 10 or so PCs of the Reputation, tactic and Focuses.

Cynicalmisfit said:

I set about getting things ready with various passers by asking various rules questions about the game. I will say my memory of parts of the systems was shoddy at best, but what answers I could give was with either demostration or explanation of the game and it's components. Most stated that it looked like a boardgame, some fans of the 2nd edition were appalled at how fiddly the system had become, but suffice to say the general concensus was not positive. I was able to wrangle together 3 people to run things and test the game out. There were a few spots in the rules that we did incorrectly and had to be hand waived or redone but it all went as smooth as it could being a completely new game and all.

After the demo was over (people refused to play after the first encounter stating that it was just not fun at all) I asked the 3 people involved to give me some feedback, this is what I can recall from memory:

  • The propietary dice were not needed, why could'nt they have just used regular dice found in most hobby stores.
  • The cards did not simplify rules look up and why could'nt they just put the in a rulebook and be written down on a character sheet.
  • The initiative tracking system using the Stance Meter just complicated matters and we resorted to using names written down on a dry erase board.
  • The recharge mechanics for ability cards was not needed and why could'nt they just have a "tap" and "un-tap" type of mechanic.
  • Accruing fatigue from any action outside of the free one every person got was not enough to preform even the most basic functions during combat and felt like it was penalizing player creativness.
  • There was not enough dice of one or two types in certain situations to be able to roll all the dice at once and some dice needed to be rerolled.
  • Had more people that wanted to try out the system but had to be turned away because A) The single combat that was run took way too long to the point the store had to close and B)With only the materials supplied the demo could only be run for a maximum of 3 people.
  • In order for a Game Master to keep track of multiple monster and their wounds one would have to place the wound cards near said monster to keep track and make copies of the various monsters involved in the adventure to be able to place recharge tokens on the various ability "cards"the monsters had.
  • 100$ retail? it costs way too much for anyone wanting to get in to a Warhammer rpg.

The dice and NEW WAY TO PLAY THE GAME and work EVERY WELL, ive run threw many things to make sure i know how things work and the dice pools work GREAT. The cards do make it simple cuz you dont have to thumb thew a book and even if its open to the page how is that better then the card being OPEN AND IN FRONT OF YOU. The recharge is very good because it make for a more REALISTIC game play because you cant spam the same attack that s really good, further more, the tapping would need to be kept track of over rounds anyway...so why not use counters? You can rest to take the fatigue off....did you miss that in the rules? THERE ARE MORE THEN ENOUGH DICE IN THE COLLECTIVE! you make a huge pile in the middle of the table composed of dice....there are enough dice to role for any basic character. If the game took to long thats the Roleplayers fault not FFG. Keeping track of the monsters wounds is as easy as placing them in different piles.

Cynicalmisfit said:

I'm sure I could go on but I think you get the idea. All in all the response to the demo was all around negative and was finally decided in a brief discussion after the demo that this was a crudely thought out version of a Warhammer rpg and would not do well in the store that it was demo'd at or in the immediate area.

On a personal note, I would like to say that I do not like it at all that FFG charged my local game store $40 to get the demo in as there was absolutely no mention of being charged to get the demo in anywhere in the sign up web page or information they gave on the website. In all of the years I have ever run demos for game companies has any company charged for demo material.

In conclusion the demo was a bust and the store is out $40. It was a negative experience to endure and I wish FFG all the luck in the future with their games and their company.

Good Day

ill assume you didnt have full accsess to the core set cuz you should have had MORE THEN ENOUGH for the game....from what i can tell....it also seems that you dont emprovise enough to keep the game fresh and fun...you should work on that before you run a game again....frankly if you where my GM...id be bored too....ENGAGE the player.....make the game flow and be fresh....if you stick to only what they give you to work off...you wont be good...change stuff up....and for goodness sack man! PLEASE be inovative....ive figured out how to make a day late and a shilling short + all the componates work for 5 PCs!!!!

Posted at

I'm sorry you had a difficult, and negative time. I have not run, nor played, the game yet, but I've read through the rules a few times and simulated some rolls.

A few things about your post struck me:

- It seems obvious to me that the proprietary dice are needed. How else can a single roll determine successes/challenges/boons/banes/comets/etc. I just don't see dice with numbered sides doing this, or at least doing this easily. You'd need a complicated look-up table to know which number of which kind of die meant what. I don't know that this was explained/conveyed properly to them.
- It's possible the cards did not help things. It just seems to me, especially for the demo, having players pass around a single rulebook to find out what their stuff does would be more of a hassle. <shrug> but that just could be me.
- A tap/un-tap is an interesting suggestion. Why did they prefer this over the recharge? Did they feel like they couldn't use their actions often enough?
- Allowing extra actions gives players much more versatility and options than v2 does ... since that restricts to only 2 half actions. Most other RPGs only let you do a 'single' action during a combat round. So, I'm confused why 3e, which lets you do any number of maneuvers (depending on the amount of fatigue you spend) in a single combat round seems like it penalizes player creativity or freedom.
- I agree, I think there might be a lack of dice at times ... but I'm not sure these starting PCs can ever roll more than the dice provided, unless the GM is applying a fistful of negatives or a player spends all 3 fortune points on a single roll while also gaining fortune dice from something else. None of the PCs have more than 3 stance in a direction, and the game comes with 4 green&4 red dice. None of the PCs have more than a 5 in a characteristic, and the game comes with 8 blue dice. No challenges should be over 4, and the game comes with 4 purple dice. No PC has more than a single skill point in a skill, and the game comes with 4 yellow dice. I suppose if a PC rolled the Righteous Hammer on the first die, got a second and rolled the R.Hammer on that one, and so one, getting 4 R.Hammers in a row he'd need to reroll a yellow die for the 5th roll. Then, the game comes with 6x fortune dice and 6x misfortune dice. I think it would be a rare occurance to have more than 6 of either die on a single roll. It could happen, but it shouldn't be the norm. So, I fail to see where the rerolls you had came from.
- The entire demo shouldn't take more than 1.5 hours. Knowing demos, that people show up late, that explaining new rules takes time, I've allocated 4 hours for each of my demos to be safe. I think if the combat took too long, I'm sorry but the problem lies in the GM. He is the arbitor of the game, and has the ability and responsibility to keep the game moving.
- The set has enough materials to run all 4 PCs, if not more. The *only* issue as far as materials are basic action cards. There are only 3 copies of each one. Personally, I'm making copies for my 4th player to make it easier, but players could also share without too much trouble. There are 5 stance tracks available and plenty of stance pieces. None of the PCs share any other actions or talents. I assume the basic action cards are what you meant when you said "Tactic" cards. (I don't mean to be rude, but if you read the rules and seriously attempted to GM the game, you really should know what to call them). This "issue" was easily identified on the forums here, so it was quite possible for you to be prepared (or even have just improvised), and run all 4 PCs.
- It tells you in the rulebook to just use a single wound card and add tokens for additional wound. Only add new cards for Criticals. You could also just use scratch paper and write stuff down like you would in any other RPG.
- $100 is enough materials to easily handle GM+3 players. It isn't meant as a single-player purchase like a player wanting to buy just a PHB (for example) to play D&D. Compare it to an entire game group (that has never played D&D before) collectively buying an entire set of D&D books and dice so their group can play. The cost is comparable.

Honestly, and I know this is going to sound bad, and I apologize ahead of time, but ... it sounds to me like
a) You were not really interested nor motivated to GM the game
b) You did not understand the rules
c) You did not explain the game to the players very well
d) You did not prepare for running the game

All my opinons, of course, and only from information gotten from reading your post. You admitted your memory of the rules was spotty ... which is a bad sign for a GM trying to run a game for strangers. It can work out if you're playing with friends or your regular gaming group, but in a time constrained store setting with strangers it does not usually make for a good experience (and also takes a lot longer as both GM and players fumble with how things are supposed to work). I have found that even GMing for my regular group it takes quite a bit of preparation to run a good game. It become even more so with rules I am familiar with, but an adventure I'm not (such as the Rogue Trader demo adventure that I ran a couple times). I read through the adventure a half-dozen times after I got it, making notes each time and finding additional information that I needed to know and identifying things that I thought the players would ask about. For this demo I've read the rules twice, and the demo 3 times, so far this week. I've made some test combat rolls and practiced running the Social Encounter for a few rounds. I expect I'll do all of the above again Friday night and Saturday morning before I run my first game. It's a new system, quite different from a lot that people have played before (including me). There is going to be a learning curve, and people are going to ask questions. It is my job and responsibility as the GM to attempt to know the rules as best as possible, and to expedite the learning of the players. By knowing the rules and adventure well, I can help the players learn the rules. Once the players get the hang of the rules, they can enjoy the adventure better. The purpose of any game is to have fun. I, as the GM, need to try my darndest to make sure my players have fun. If that means I spend a few days beforehand cramming and practicing a new ruleset so I barely need to think about it, then so be it. If I didn't, and the players don't have fun, then the fault is as much with me as the GM then it is with the game system I didn't even try signifcantly to learn. Unlike playing, GMing is a lot of work. You can rarely just flip through an unfamilar rulebook a few minutes ahead of time, then run it for a bunch of strangers in a public place, and find a satifying experience. In my experience anyway.

So, again, I am sorry that you and your players had a bad time of it. It's never fun to participate in an un-fun game. The players certainly had a few good questions/concerns, but I think they could have been adequately allayed. I would hope that you would either take some more time to reread the rules, practice a bit, and try it again ... or see if someone else is willing to try their hand at GMing and you can try from a player's perspective. I'm not saying that you will suddenly like WFRP 3e, or that WFRP is definitely a great game (not having actually played/GM'd it personally yet). I'm not saying this as a "fanboy", as I'm sure some people will think. But, I think from what you posted, that an awful lot of the problems and "un-fun" you encountered was not really due to the game itself.

Posted at

Farin said:

Cynicalmisfit said:

I recently ran the demo for the new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd edition box set that arrived at my local hobby store. I read the rules which seemed sparse and at a point convoluted at best and set to put together the cards and such for the pregenerated characters. Sadly I was only able to use 3 of the 4 supplied pregenerated characters as there was not enough "Tactic" cards available to play both the Envoy and the Apprentice Wizard.

ok your completely wrong here! There are enough cards for 5 PC's....trust me people...ive looked at the box. Secondly the Apprentice wizard doesnt use tactic cards and there are enough cards for 10 or so PCs of the Reputation, tactic and Focuses.

Cynicalmisfit said:

I set about getting things ready with various passers by asking various rules questions about the game. I will say my memory of parts of the systems was shoddy at best, but what answers I could give was with either demostration or explanation of the game and it's components. Most stated that it looked like a boardgame, some fans of the 2nd edition were appalled at how fiddly the system had become, but suffice to say the general concensus was not positive. I was able to wrangle together 3 people to run things and test the game out. There were a few spots in the rules that we did incorrectly and had to be hand waived or redone but it all went as smooth as it could being a completely new game and all.

After the demo was over (people refused to play after the first encounter stating that it was just not fun at all) I asked the 3 people involved to give me some feedback, this is what I can recall from memory:

  • The propietary dice were not needed, why could'nt they have just used regular dice found in most hobby stores.
  • The cards did not simplify rules look up and why could'nt they just put the in a rulebook and be written down on a character sheet.
  • The initiative tracking system using the Stance Meter just complicated matters and we resorted to using names written down on a dry erase board.
  • The recharge mechanics for ability cards was not needed and why could'nt they just have a "tap" and "un-tap" type of mechanic.
  • Accruing fatigue from any action outside of the free one every person got was not enough to preform even the most basic functions during combat and felt like it was penalizing player creativness.
  • There was not enough dice of one or two types in certain situations to be able to roll all the dice at once and some dice needed to be rerolled.
  • Had more people that wanted to try out the system but had to be turned away because A) The single combat that was run took way too long to the point the store had to close and B)With only the materials supplied the demo could only be run for a maximum of 3 people.
  • In order for a Game Master to keep track of multiple monster and their wounds one would have to place the wound cards near said monster to keep track and make copies of the various monsters involved in the adventure to be able to place recharge tokens on the various ability "cards"the monsters had.
  • 100$ retail? it costs way too much for anyone wanting to get in to a Warhammer rpg.

The dice and NEW WAY TO PLAY THE GAME and work EVERY WELL, ive run threw many things to make sure i know how things work and the dice pools work GREAT. The cards do make it simple cuz you dont have to thumb thew a book and even if its open to the page how is that better then the card being OPEN AND IN FRONT OF YOU. The recharge is very good because it make for a more REALISTIC game play because you cant spam the same attack that s really good, further more, the tapping would need to be kept track of over rounds anyway...so why not use counters? You can rest to take the fatigue off....did you miss that in the rules? THERE ARE MORE THEN ENOUGH DICE IN THE COLLECTIVE! you make a huge pile in the middle of the table composed of dice....there are enough dice to role for any basic character. If the game took to long thats the Roleplayers fault not FFG. Keeping track of the monsters wounds is as easy as placing them in different piles.

Cynicalmisfit said:

I'm sure I could go on but I think you get the idea. All in all the response to the demo was all around negative and was finally decided in a brief discussion after the demo that this was a crudely thought out version of a Warhammer rpg and would not do well in the store that it was demo'd at or in the immediate area.

On a personal note, I would like to say that I do not like it at all that FFG charged my local game store $40 to get the demo in as there was absolutely no mention of being charged to get the demo in anywhere in the sign up web page or information they gave on the website. In all of the years I have ever run demos for game companies has any company charged for demo material.

In conclusion the demo was a bust and the store is out $40. It was a negative experience to endure and I wish FFG all the luck in the future with their games and their company.

Good Day

ill assume you didnt have full accsess to the core set cuz you should have had MORE THEN ENOUGH for the game....from what i can tell....it also seems that you dont emprovise enough to keep the game fresh and fun...you should work on that before you run a game again....frankly if you where my GM...id be bored too....ENGAGE the player.....make the game flow and be fresh....if you stick to only what they give you to work off...you wont be good...change stuff up....and for goodness sack man! PLEASE be inovative....ive figured out how to make a day late and a shilling short + all the componates work for 5 PCs!!!!

I'm not very good with the quote function but i'll do my best to make this reply make sense.

First of all your entire post reeks of snark and it's unappreciated. I appologize if I did not run it to your standards but when a game falls flat for someone it has nothing to do with them doing it wrong or playing it not to your liking, but if this kind of thing happens to me i'm sure it'll happen to others along the way. Now i'm not saying that if I can't run a game of another game system other won't either, far from it. All I am trying to relay in my post is the events that transpired during the demo, good or bad. Take that as you will.

As for my preparedness, I read the books cover to cover and made sure to cover some parts that I thought were shady or would come up a large amount during the demo. I had also set the components up on the table as to be the most helpful or of most use. I don't honestly think I could have prepared anymore than was possible.

My box came with what it came with, how was I supposed to know if there was enough of something in the set sent to the hobby store I was demoing at. I checked and double checked and there still wasn't enough for some players let alone 5. Maybe I was misinterpreting things incorrectly, maybe my box was short some components, i'm not exactly sure.

I like to think I am a great engaging GM with adventures full of drama and plot twists, and I could have run the game like that but I wanted to see even for myself how a NEW player would handle the system and source material. So, completely forgeting everything I knew about gaming and Warhammer in general I worked with what FFG gave me info-wise in the box (which sadly comparing it to 2nd edition is next to nil).

In conclusion i'm sorry I gave a negative review to your favorite game. I was merely speaking of what I saw and what happened in a brief description. I also am sorry for upsetting you in anyway by not playing your way. Frankly though if your post is any indication of your attitude I am glad I don't.

Posted at

Cynicalmisfit said:

Farin said:

Cynicalmisfit said:

I recently ran the demo for the new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd edition box set that arrived at my local hobby store. I read the rules which seemed sparse and at a point convoluted at best and set to put together the cards and such for the pregenerated characters. Sadly I was only able to use 3 of the 4 supplied pregenerated characters as there was not enough "Tactic" cards available to play both the Envoy and the Apprentice Wizard.

ok your completely wrong here! There are enough cards for 5 PC's....trust me people...ive looked at the box. Secondly the Apprentice wizard doesnt use tactic cards and there are enough cards for 10 or so PCs of the Reputation, tactic and Focuses.

Cynicalmisfit said:

I set about getting things ready with various passers by asking various rules questions about the game. I will say my memory of parts of the systems was shoddy at best, but what answers I could give was with either demostration or explanation of the game and it's components. Most stated that it looked like a boardgame, some fans of the 2nd edition were appalled at how fiddly the system had become, but suffice to say the general concensus was not positive. I was able to wrangle together 3 people to run things and test the game out. There were a few spots in the rules that we did incorrectly and had to be hand waived or redone but it all went as smooth as it could being a completely new game and all.

After the demo was over (people refused to play after the first encounter stating that it was just not fun at all) I asked the 3 people involved to give me some feedback, this is what I can recall from memory:

  • The propietary dice were not needed, why could'nt they have just used regular dice found in most hobby stores.
  • The cards did not simplify rules look up and why could'nt they just put the in a rulebook and be written down on a character sheet.
  • The initiative tracking system using the Stance Meter just complicated matters and we resorted to using names written down on a dry erase board.
  • The recharge mechanics for ability cards was not needed and why could'nt they just have a "tap" and "un-tap" type of mechanic.
  • Accruing fatigue from any action outside of the free one every person got was not enough to preform even the most basic functions during combat and felt like it was penalizing player creativness.
  • There was not enough dice of one or two types in certain situations to be able to roll all the dice at once and some dice needed to be rerolled.
  • Had more people that wanted to try out the system but had to be turned away because A) The single combat that was run took way too long to the point the store had to close and B)With only the materials supplied the demo could only be run for a maximum of 3 people.
  • In order for a Game Master to keep track of multiple monster and their wounds one would have to place the wound cards near said monster to keep track and make copies of the various monsters involved in the adventure to be able to place recharge tokens on the various ability "cards"the monsters had.
  • 100$ retail? it costs way too much for anyone wanting to get in to a Warhammer rpg.

The dice and NEW WAY TO PLAY THE GAME and work EVERY WELL, ive run threw many things to make sure i know how things work and the dice pools work GREAT. The cards do make it simple cuz you dont have to thumb thew a book and even if its open to the page how is that better then the card being OPEN AND IN FRONT OF YOU. The recharge is very good because it make for a more REALISTIC game play because you cant spam the same attack that s really good, further more, the tapping would need to be kept track of over rounds anyway...so why not use counters? You can rest to take the fatigue off....did you miss that in the rules? THERE ARE MORE THEN ENOUGH DICE IN THE COLLECTIVE! you make a huge pile in the middle of the table composed of dice....there are enough dice to role for any basic character. If the game took to long thats the Roleplayers fault not FFG. Keeping track of the monsters wounds is as easy as placing them in different piles.

Cynicalmisfit said:

I'm sure I could go on but I think you get the idea. All in all the response to the demo was all around negative and was finally decided in a brief discussion after the demo that this was a crudely thought out version of a Warhammer rpg and would not do well in the store that it was demo'd at or in the immediate area.

On a personal note, I would like to say that I do not like it at all that FFG charged my local game store $40 to get the demo in as there was absolutely no mention of being charged to get the demo in anywhere in the sign up web page or information they gave on the website. In all of the years I have ever run demos for game companies has any company charged for demo material.

In conclusion the demo was a bust and the store is out $40. It was a negative experience to endure and I wish FFG all the luck in the future with their games and their company.

Good Day

ill assume you didnt have full accsess to the core set cuz you should have had MORE THEN ENOUGH for the game....from what i can tell....it also seems that you dont emprovise enough to keep the game fresh and fun...you should work on that before you run a game again....frankly if you where my GM...id be bored too....ENGAGE the player.....make the game flow and be fresh....if you stick to only what they give you to work off...you wont be good...change stuff up....and for goodness sack man! PLEASE be inovative....ive figured out how to make a day late and a shilling short + all the componates work for 5 PCs!!!!

I'm not very good with the quote function but i'll do my best to make this reply make sense.

First of all your entire post reeks of snark and it's unappreciated. I appologize if I did not run it to your standards but when a game falls flat for someone it has nothing to do with them doing it wrong or playing it not to your liking, but if this kind of thing happens to me i'm sure it'll happen to others along the way. Now i'm not saying that if I can't run a game of another game system other won't either, far from it. All I am trying to relay in my post is the events that transpired during the demo, good or bad. Take that as you will.

As for my preparedness, I read the books cover to cover and made sure to cover some parts that I thought were shady or would come up a large amount during the demo. I had also set the components up on the table as to be the most helpful or of most use. I don't honestly think I could have prepared anymore than was possible.

My box came with what it came with, how was I supposed to know if there was enough of something in the set sent to the hobby store I was demoing at. I checked and double checked and there still wasn't enough for some players let alone 5. Maybe I was misinterpreting things incorrectly, maybe my box was short some components, i'm not exactly sure.

I like to think I am a great engaging GM with adventures full of drama and plot twists, and I could have run the game like that but I wanted to see even for myself how a NEW player would handle the system and source material. So, completely forgeting everything I knew about gaming and Warhammer in general I worked with what FFG gave me info-wise in the box (which sadly comparing it to 2nd edition is next to nil).

In conclusion i'm sorry I gave a negative review to your favorite game. I was merely speaking of what I saw and what happened in a brief description. I also am sorry for upsetting you in anyway by not playing your way. Frankly though if your post is any indication of your attitude I am glad I don't.

again ill say it....it WAS YOUR FAULT as a GM for not doing it right. you did have enough for 5 players...you just gata make it stretch....imporvise!!!! and YOU SHOULD HAVE USED YOUR GMING SKILLS!!!!! what gave you the idea that that was a bad idea?!? goodness if your gana GM A game...oh gee better use the skills i have learn as a GM over the years....wow....im sorry this is harsh but your bashing a game that is better then you failed to see it as.....you should have run the game with your skills....the GM book clears says on page 8 what it takes to improvise....and further more the books stress making this original......if you missed this then again...your fault....im truely sorry this is as harsh as im making it...but your wrong...EXTREMELY wrong....you can clam it as an opinion....but its wrong...you should know better as a seasoned GM

Posted at

Farin said:

Cynicalmisfit said:

Farin said:

Cynicalmisfit said:

I recently ran the demo for the new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd edition box set that arrived at my local hobby store. I read the rules which seemed sparse and at a point convoluted at best and set to put together the cards and such for the pregenerated characters. Sadly I was only able to use 3 of the 4 supplied pregenerated characters as there was not enough "Tactic" cards available to play both the Envoy and the Apprentice Wizard.

ok your completely wrong here! There are enough cards for 5 PC's....trust me people...ive looked at the box. Secondly the Apprentice wizard doesnt use tactic cards and there are enough cards for 10 or so PCs of the Reputation, tactic and Focuses.

Cynicalmisfit said:

I set about getting things ready with various passers by asking various rules questions about the game. I will say my memory of parts of the systems was shoddy at best, but what answers I could give was with either demostration or explanation of the game and it's components. Most stated that it looked like a boardgame, some fans of the 2nd edition were appalled at how fiddly the system had become, but suffice to say the general concensus was not positive. I was able to wrangle together 3 people to run things and test the game out. There were a few spots in the rules that we did incorrectly and had to be hand waived or redone but it all went as smooth as it could being a completely new game and all.

After the demo was over (people refused to play after the first encounter stating that it was just not fun at all) I asked the 3 people involved to give me some feedback, this is what I can recall from memory:

  • The propietary dice were not needed, why could'nt they have just used regular dice found in most hobby stores.
  • The cards did not simplify rules look up and why could'nt they just put the in a rulebook and be written down on a character sheet.
  • The initiative tracking system using the Stance Meter just complicated matters and we resorted to using names written down on a dry erase board.
  • The recharge mechanics for ability cards was not needed and why could'nt they just have a "tap" and "un-tap" type of mechanic.
  • Accruing fatigue from any action outside of the free one every person got was not enough to preform even the most basic functions during combat and felt like it was penalizing player creativness.
  • There was not enough dice of one or two types in certain situations to be able to roll all the dice at once and some dice needed to be rerolled.
  • Had more people that wanted to try out the system but had to be turned away because A) The single combat that was run took way too long to the point the store had to close and B)With only the materials supplied the demo could only be run for a maximum of 3 people.
  • In order for a Game Master to keep track of multiple monster and their wounds one would have to place the wound cards near said monster to keep track and make copies of the various monsters involved in the adventure to be able to place recharge tokens on the various ability "cards"the monsters had.
  • 100$ retail? it costs way too much for anyone wanting to get in to a Warhammer rpg.

The dice and NEW WAY TO PLAY THE GAME and work EVERY WELL, ive run threw many things to make sure i know how things work and the dice pools work GREAT. The cards do make it simple cuz you dont have to thumb thew a book and even if its open to the page how is that better then the card being OPEN AND IN FRONT OF YOU. The recharge is very good because it make for a more REALISTIC game play because you cant spam the same attack that s really good, further more, the tapping would need to be kept track of over rounds anyway...so why not use counters? You can rest to take the fatigue off....did you miss that in the rules? THERE ARE MORE THEN ENOUGH DICE IN THE COLLECTIVE! you make a huge pile in the middle of the table composed of dice....there are enough dice to role for any basic character. If the game took to long thats the Roleplayers fault not FFG. Keeping track of the monsters wounds is as easy as placing them in different piles.

Cynicalmisfit said:

I'm sure I could go on but I think you get the idea. All in all the response to the demo was all around negative and was finally decided in a brief discussion after the demo that this was a crudely thought out version of a Warhammer rpg and would not do well in the store that it was demo'd at or in the immediate area.

On a personal note, I would like to say that I do not like it at all that FFG charged my local game store $40 to get the demo in as there was absolutely no mention of being charged to get the demo in anywhere in the sign up web page or information they gave on the website. In all of the years I have ever run demos for game companies has any company charged for demo material.

In conclusion the demo was a bust and the store is out $40. It was a negative experience to endure and I wish FFG all the luck in the future with their games and their company.

Good Day

ill assume you didnt have full accsess to the core set cuz you should have had MORE THEN ENOUGH for the game....from what i can tell....it also seems that you dont emprovise enough to keep the game fresh and fun...you should work on that before you run a game again....frankly if you where my GM...id be bored too....ENGAGE the player.....make the game flow and be fresh....if you stick to only what they give you to work off...you wont be good...change stuff up....and for goodness sack man! PLEASE be inovative....ive figured out how to make a day late and a shilling short + all the componates work for 5 PCs!!!!

I'm not very good with the quote function but i'll do my best to make this reply make sense.

First of all your entire post reeks of snark and it's unappreciated. I appologize if I did not run it to your standards but when a game falls flat for someone it has nothing to do with them doing it wrong or playing it not to your liking, but if this kind of thing happens to me i'm sure it'll happen to others along the way. Now i'm not saying that if I can't run a game of another game system other won't either, far from it. All I am trying to relay in my post is the events that transpired during the demo, good or bad. Take that as you will.

As for my preparedness, I read the books cover to cover and made sure to cover some parts that I thought were shady or would come up a large amount during the demo. I had also set the components up on the table as to be the most helpful or of most use. I don't honestly think I could have prepared anymore than was possible.

My box came with what it came with, how was I supposed to know if there was enough of something in the set sent to the hobby store I was demoing at. I checked and double checked and there still wasn't enough for some players let alone 5. Maybe I was misinterpreting things incorrectly, maybe my box was short some components, i'm not exactly sure.

I like to think I am a great engaging GM with adventures full of drama and plot twists, and I could have run the game like that but I wanted to see even for myself how a NEW player would handle the system and source material. So, completely forgeting everything I knew about gaming and Warhammer in general I worked with what FFG gave me info-wise in the box (which sadly comparing it to 2nd edition is next to nil).

In conclusion i'm sorry I gave a negative review to your favorite game. I was merely speaking of what I saw and what happened in a brief description. I also am sorry for upsetting you in anyway by not playing your way. Frankly though if your post is any indication of your attitude I am glad I don't.

again ill say it....it WAS YOUR FAULT as a GM for not doing it right. you did have enough for 5 players...you just gata make it stretch....imporvise!!!! and YOU SHOULD HAVE USED YOUR GMING SKILLS!!!!! what gave you the idea that that was a bad idea?!? goodness if your gana GM A game...oh gee better use the skills i have learn as a GM over the years....wow....im sorry this is harsh but your bashing a game that is better then you failed to see it as.....you should have run the game with your skills....the GM book clears says on page 8 what it takes to improvise....and further more the books stress making this original......if you missed this then again...your fault....im truely sorry this is as harsh as im making it...but your wrong...EXTREMELY wrong....you can clam it as an opinion....but its wrong...you should know better as a seasoned GM

If you could read the original post you'll see I was not bashing anything in anyway, I was simply telling everyone what happened. On the otherhand I see no more point to this thread or conversation with you regarding this matter as all you can seem to do is bash (sorry if i'm barrowing one of your terms) my way of GMing or playstyle. Nowhere in my post did I mention anything about my ability to GM, but you assume it's all me and not the games fault. Thats great and as always your opinion. No one is going to tell you that your game is badwrongfun nor personally will I ever. Bashing (there's that word again) on someones playstyle to make up for any insecurities you may have about your beloved game does'nt seem too intelligent, but hey, it's your game. Have a blast...a ball, whatever you want. I on the otherhand refuse to be apart of an abusive forum community nor a company that houses such behavior and will no longer take time out of my day to help said company or community any further. I will take my lackluster GMing skills elsewhere to greener pastures. This will be my last post. Thank you all those that took the time to read my post and at least glean some logic from it instead of nerd raging.

Good day happy.gif

Posted at

Cynicalmisfit said:

Farin said:

Cynicalmisfit said:

Farin said:

Cynicalmisfit said:

I recently ran the demo for the new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd edition box set that arrived at my local hobby store. I read the rules which seemed sparse and at a point convoluted at best and set to put together the cards and such for the pregenerated characters. Sadly I was only able to use 3 of the 4 supplied pregenerated characters as there was not enough "Tactic" cards available to play both the Envoy and the Apprentice Wizard.

ok your completely wrong here! There are enough cards for 5 PC's....trust me people...ive looked at the box. Secondly the Apprentice wizard doesnt use tactic cards and there are enough cards for 10 or so PCs of the Reputation, tactic and Focuses.

Cynicalmisfit said:

I set about getting things ready with various passers by asking various rules questions about the game. I will say my memory of parts of the systems was shoddy at best, but what answers I could give was with either demostration or explanation of the game and it's components. Most stated that it looked like a boardgame, some fans of the 2nd edition were appalled at how fiddly the system had become, but suffice to say the general concensus was not positive. I was able to wrangle together 3 people to run things and test the game out. There were a few spots in the rules that we did incorrectly and had to be hand waived or redone but it all went as smooth as it could being a completely new game and all.

After the demo was over (people refused to play after the first encounter stating that it was just not fun at all) I asked the 3 people involved to give me some feedback, this is what I can recall from memory:

  • The propietary dice were not needed, why could'nt they have just used regular dice found in most hobby stores.
  • The cards did not simplify rules look up and why could'nt they just put the in a rulebook and be written down on a character sheet.
  • The initiative tracking system using the Stance Meter just complicated matters and we resorted to using names written down on a dry erase board.
  • The recharge mechanics for ability cards was not needed and why could'nt they just have a "tap" and "un-tap" type of mechanic.
  • Accruing fatigue from any action outside of the free one every person got was not enough to preform even the most basic functions during combat and felt like it was penalizing player creativness.
  • There was not enough dice of one or two types in certain situations to be able to roll all the dice at once and some dice needed to be rerolled.
  • Had more people that wanted to try out the system but had to be turned away because A) The single combat that was run took way too long to the point the store had to close and B)With only the materials supplied the demo could only be run for a maximum of 3 people.
  • In order for a Game Master to keep track of multiple monster and their wounds one would have to place the wound cards near said monster to keep track and make copies of the various monsters involved in the adventure to be able to place recharge tokens on the various ability "cards"the monsters had.
  • 100$ retail? it costs way too much for anyone wanting to get in to a Warhammer rpg.

The dice and NEW WAY TO PLAY THE GAME and work EVERY WELL, ive run threw many things to make sure i know how things work and the dice pools work GREAT. The cards do make it simple cuz you dont have to thumb thew a book and even if its open to the page how is that better then the card being OPEN AND IN FRONT OF YOU. The recharge is very good because it make for a more REALISTIC game play because you cant spam the same attack that s really good, further more, the tapping would need to be kept track of over rounds anyway...so why not use counters? You can rest to take the fatigue off....did you miss that in the rules? THERE ARE MORE THEN ENOUGH DICE IN THE COLLECTIVE! you make a huge pile in the middle of the table composed of dice....there are enough dice to role for any basic character. If the game took to long thats the Roleplayers fault not FFG. Keeping track of the monsters wounds is as easy as placing them in different piles.

Cynicalmisfit said:

I'm sure I could go on but I think you get the idea. All in all the response to the demo was all around negative and was finally decided in a brief discussion after the demo that this was a crudely thought out version of a Warhammer rpg and would not do well in the store that it was demo'd at or in the immediate area.

On a personal note, I would like to say that I do not like it at all that FFG charged my local game store $40 to get the demo in as there was absolutely no mention of being charged to get the demo in anywhere in the sign up web page or information they gave on the website. In all of the years I have ever run demos for game companies has any company charged for demo material.

In conclusion the demo was a bust and the store is out $40. It was a negative experience to endure and I wish FFG all the luck in the future with their games and their company.

Good Day

ill assume you didnt have full accsess to the core set cuz you should have had MORE THEN ENOUGH for the game....from what i can tell....it also seems that you dont emprovise enough to keep the game fresh and fun...you should work on that before you run a game again....frankly if you where my GM...id be bored too....ENGAGE the player.....make the game flow and be fresh....if you stick to only what they give you to work off...you wont be good...change stuff up....and for goodness sack man! PLEASE be inovative....ive figured out how to make a day late and a shilling short + all the componates work for 5 PCs!!!!

I'm not very good with the quote function but i'll do my best to make this reply make sense.

First of all your entire post reeks of snark and it's unappreciated. I appologize if I did not run it to your standards but when a game falls flat for someone it has nothing to do with them doing it wrong or playing it not to your liking, but if this kind of thing happens to me i'm sure it'll happen to others along the way. Now i'm not saying that if I can't run a game of another game system other won't either, far from it. All I am trying to relay in my post is the events that transpired during the demo, good or bad. Take that as you will.

As for my preparedness, I read the books cover to cover and made sure to cover some parts that I thought were shady or would come up a large amount during the demo. I had also set the components up on the table as to be the most helpful or of most use. I don't honestly think I could have prepared anymore than was possible.

My box came with what it came with, how was I supposed to know if there was enough of something in the set sent to the hobby store I was demoing at. I checked and double checked and there still wasn't enough for some players let alone 5. Maybe I was misinterpreting things incorrectly, maybe my box was short some components, i'm not exactly sure.

I like to think I am a great engaging GM with adventures full of drama and plot twists, and I could have run the game like that but I wanted to see even for myself how a NEW player would handle the system and source material. So, completely forgeting everything I knew about gaming and Warhammer in general I worked with what FFG gave me info-wise in the box (which sadly comparing it to 2nd edition is next to nil).

In conclusion i'm sorry I gave a negative review to your favorite game. I was merely speaking of what I saw and what happened in a brief description. I also am sorry for upsetting you in anyway by not playing your way. Frankly though if your post is any indication of your attitude I am glad I don't.

again ill say it....it WAS YOUR FAULT as a GM for not doing it right. you did have enough for 5 players...you just gata make it stretch....imporvise!!!! and YOU SHOULD HAVE USED YOUR GMING SKILLS!!!!! what gave you the idea that that was a bad idea?!? goodness if your gana GM A game...oh gee better use the skills i have learn as a GM over the years....wow....im sorry this is harsh but your bashing a game that is better then you failed to see it as.....you should have run the game with your skills....the GM book clears says on page 8 what it takes to improvise....and further more the books stress making this original......if you missed this then again...your fault....im truely sorry this is as harsh as im making it...but your wrong...EXTREMELY wrong....you can clam it as an opinion....but its wrong...you should know better as a seasoned GM

If you could read the original post you'll see I was not bashing anything in anyway, I was simply telling everyone what happened. On the otherhand I see no more point to this thread or conversation with you regarding this matter as all you can seem to do is bash (sorry if i'm barrowing one of your terms) my way of GMing or playstyle. Nowhere in my post did I mention anything about my ability to GM, but you assume it's all me and not the games fault. Thats great and as always your opinion. No one is going to tell you that your game is badwrongfun nor personally will I ever. Bashing (there's that word again) on someones playstyle to make up for any insecurities you may have about your beloved game does'nt seem too intelligent, but hey, it's your game. Have a blast...a ball, whatever you want. I on the otherhand refuse to be apart of an abusive forum community nor a company that houses such behavior and will no longer take time out of my day to help said company or community any further. I will take my lackluster GMing skills elsewhere to greener pastures. This will be my last post. Thank you all those that took the time to read my post and at least glean some logic from it instead of nerd raging.

Good day happy.gif

you said your self that you left your GM skills ouut of it "and I could have run the game like that but I wanted to see even for myself how a NEW player would handle the system and source material. So, completely forgeting everything I knew about gaming and Warhammer in general I worked with what FFG gave me info-wise in the box (which sadly comparing it to 2nd edition is next to nil)." IK you arnt gonig to read this...and sorry for that but really you set your self up to fail

Posted at

So what can we gain from your post

Cynicalmisfit said:


I read the rules which seemed sparse and at a point convoluted

You do not like the new system

Cynicalmisfit said:


I will say my memory of parts of the systems was shoddy at best

You did not know the rules

Cynicalmisfit said:


After the demo was over (people refused to play after the first encounter stating that it was just not fun at all)

And it went badly, from your previous two points I think we can see why

Cynicalmisfit said:


Had more people that wanted to try out the system but had to be turned away

Oh sorry I thought you said people refused to play

Looks to me this is just your views on the system with a fabricated story of a play test.

Posted at

Wow. This thread is a mess! sorpresa.gif

I think you must have meant 'basic action cards' instead of tactics cards, and yes - there are only 3 sets. They would have to be shared - which would require one of the players to 'hand' the the 3 or 4 cards to another player.

And, yes, it stated plainly on the sign up page that the demo was $40, a minimal cost for a $99 MSRP, $65 on Amazon.

What kind of rolls were you making that required more dice than included? You didn't do something right man...

No pictures? What was the name of the venue you ran it for - the name of your game store?

Your story seems a little light on play experience details and very heavy on personal opinion. I'm sorry, with all the contradictions in your report, I'll have to take all this with a grain of salt. Sounds like a troll to me.

Edit: LOL at the name of the OP... Very appropriate. Wait, is that you RPGPundit? Do I smell burning pants? partido_risa.gif

Posted at

Interesting.

Cynicalmisfit, could you please go into a bit more detail about why combat took so long to resolve? I'd like to know what I might have to deal with.

Posted at

I think his last statement was that he was leaving and never coming back. I'm really questioning the validity of all this. Not because 'it didn't go well', but because there are many things in his report that just 'don't sound right'. Either way, if he does 'leave and never come back', then we will never know :)

Posted at

Serves me right for not reading the entire thread. I tend to ignore or pass over posts in which there is a lot of flaming going on. Oh well.

Hopefully there'll be more objective criticisms in the days to come. I do actually want to read some negative reviews too, as long as they're not whiny.

Posted at

While I never thought that he might be RPGPundit, when I first read his list of complaints about the system, the list read exactly like the negative posts one can find over at RPGNet.

When he followed up with 'Badwrongfun' in a later posting (used abundantly over at RPGnet), that was the surefire giveaway that he's much more interested in debating the merits of 3e than orchestrating a well-run demo.

What do we know for sure about his post?

1) Apparently he ran the demo on 11/11 or 11/12. ALL of the promotional material says the demo is being run on 11/13 thru 11/15. If nothing else, he fails reading comprehension big time. Any group motivated to play WFRP 3e would have known that the demo wasn't being run on 11/11 or 11/12. If he ran a game with a pick-up group of available players in the store - then OF COURSE you're going to get mixed reactions. If I'm in my local FLGS and they randomly decide to run a DnD 4e demo (2 days before the scheduled and promoted day of the event) and ask me if I want to try it out, my reaction would be similar to what he said his players reacted. Chances are I was in the store for a purpose OTHER than playing the demo. Heck, that's not for another few days, amiright ? He then sorta covers himself stating that he wanted to run the game for new players. WTF? Isn't your job as a GM to run the game to the best of your ability and make the game enjoyable for the players?

2) He has never before posted on the FFG forums (he registered on 11/12), and decided to use the flame-worthy title of Cynicalmisfit . While it's entirely possible that he's being completely honest, the question begs: If you haven't taken the time to follow the game, ask questions about the game (necessitating a forum registration - which he didn't do), or bother to correspond with the designers of the game to ensure a good play experience....WHY RUN THE GAME?

3) His tale has some interesting contradictions. There was no interest in the game, but there wasn't enough cards for players that wanted to join? WTF?!?!

4) Never before has he heard of stores being charged $40 for a demo - the store is out $40...blah, blah, blah. Is he the store owner? If he is the store owner or an employee - why didn't he use the promotional materials here on this site which all pointed to 11/13 to 11/15, instead of jumping the gun with whatever shoppers were in the store? If he's not the store owner, why is he concerned about $40 coming out of the store's inventory budget? I'm more than happy to buy it off of him for $40 plus S/H. Just send me a PM...

Who knows, maybe this guy is legit. However, It seems too much like someone throwing out a story that favors their own personal opinion so he can reference it somewhere else and point to it, validating his own opinion. Like he's over on (name of a game website with players that would hate 3e).com right now under his 'regular' name posting about how there's some guy over on the official boards that ran the demo and it sucked.

Seems like a sock-puppet to me...

Posted at

Seeing as how all the demos were pre-scheduled , and none that I can see are running before 6pm tonight, I find this posting dubious at best.

I will be posting a player's perspective after I've played mine tomorrow.

Posted at

Yes, it seems obvious that something is wrong with this post. Whether it is a fake and the playtest never happened, I don't know. It is true that this "demo" was run before the schedule day/time that stores are supposed to allow the game to be run. What I do know is that the OP was obviously biased negatively against the game to start out and that he was woefully underprepared to run it. Notice, in neither post I made have I said the OP was a bad GM. I said he GM'd the WFRP demo badly.

Amketch quoted the early and most direct evidence of these two points.

I admit I did skip over the majority of Farin's posts, merely because of the headache of all the long quotations and lack of punctuation and formatting. I did notice, however, that the OP never directly responded to my first post, which I thought was fairly constructive rebuttals of all the issues they supposedly had.

I too would like to hear of how other playtests go, good and bad points. What went went well, and what doesn't.

Unfortunately, the OP's post was pretty much only about how he wasn't prepared to run the game and nitpicking at things that shouldn't have even been problems with a little preparation. I was interested, for example, in his comment that players thought cards should tap/untap instead of recharge. I asked why they thought that, and why they thought that would be better than recharging. I really was curious. I think that was a problem with this post as well. It said all these negative things, many of which are preposterous, and then gave no further explanation or discussion on some topics that might have been quasi-legitimate feedback. It also never said anything good about it, which I find hard to believe that they didn't find something that seemed to work.

About the only real possibly plausible issue that could be taken from this post, which isn't actually said outright by the OP, is that the game perhaps is hard to learn? Obviously he was confused even after reading the rulebook twice (according to him). It's hard to tell whether it was difficult for the players to learn, because if the GM doesn't know the rules well enough to explain/teach the players, that makes it nearly impossible for players to learn effectively at a "pick-up" demo. It's just as possible they were playing things incorrectly, and that's why the players didn't enjoy the game or like the rules.

I hope that people who don't think they will like the game will give the demo a try, and then post their constructive thoughts. What didn't they like, and why? What *did* they like, and why? Just as it will be interesting for people who think positively and what their experiences are. I'm fully prepared to mention things that don't go so well, and why. Most things, I expect, will stem from unfamiliarity with the game (despite my preparation). If there are game mechanics that don't work as well as they seem, I'll say it and I'll say why I didn't think they worked well. This way, we can compare notes. I haven't run or played in a single RPG, including v1 and v2 of WFRP, that didn't have something that didn't work well for me. Some is not the game itself, but GM/player/group preferences. That is why house rules appear. Hopefully, by offering constructive posts and reviews, we can identify any of these rough spots in 3e or give an alternative way to look at or implement a rule that doesn't work for us.

Posted at

Necrozius said:

Serves me right for not reading the entire thread. I tend to ignore or pass over posts in which there is a lot of flaming going on. Oh well.

Hopefully there'll be more objective criticisms in the days to come. I do actually want to read some negative reviews too, as long as they're not whiny.

Necrozius said:

Hopefully there'll be more objective criticisms in the days to come. I do actually want to read some negative reviews too, as long as they're not whiny.

Pfft. You know how the hardcore gaming enthusiasts are: whine, whine, whine.

Seriously, it is difficult to find a game where there aren't at least a few of the regulars that aren't the gamer stereotype: whiny, obnoxious, self-deluded as to how smart they really are, overly offensive to anyone with the slightest hint of mainstream religious leanings, and any of the other points that instantly pop into your head. You know what they are. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Interestingly, the OP did post on the Pinnacle forms earlier regarding this matter and mentioned that he ran a demo of Savage Worlds with the group after they were disappointed by the new system. Personally, I really dig Savage Worlds. Especially since its ease of use tends to scare off the average hardcore gaming enthusiast (not crunchy/fiddly enough; it is to me, but not your regular player drawn to something like Pathfinder, which I still find too crunchy even with the "streamlining" that they did, although occasionally my inner 15-year old self screams, "Play something math-heavy!"). I don't know if he's making it up or not and I can't say either way, but it does sound like he just may have not been too willing to GM the game with full gusto or preparation.

Of course, I've played D&D 4th Edition twice, both times at the same store where the WHFRP 3 demo will take place, and I really enjoyed that system both times. I think that it just matters how much the group is into having fun and making the system work for them. I mean, I played AD&D and I still have fond memories of it, but in retrospect was it really a better system than anything else that's come along?

I'm a traditionalist with some things, but I'm all for something new and a new innovation. How many times can I really do, "I roll to hit. I got an 18. Did I beat the orc's AC? Good. I did 5 for damage"? It's all in how the group plays it, but I want to have the fresh-to-the-game experience every so often.

Posted at

Y'all Of Cthulhu said:

Pfft. You know how the hardcore gaming enthusiasts are: whine, whine, whine.

Seriously, it is difficult to find a game where there aren't at least a few of the regulars that aren't the gamer stereotype: whiny, obnoxious, self-deluded as to how smart they really are, overly offensive to anyone with the slightest hint of mainstream religious leanings, and any of the other points that instantly pop into your head. You know what they are. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Over at the other forum that I frequent often (SomethingAwful.com), they have a whole topic hundreds of pages long called "grognards.txt" in which they find hilarious quotes from Gygax worshipers about how all modern RPGs suck.

The major point that is often repeated by a lot of these types of role players is that unlike D&D 2nd edition, PCs are too powerful and the players are having too much fun.

Also, character death should happen EVERY SESSION.

Anyway, enough of that.

</DERAIL>

Posted at

Ok then, here is the OP reporting his experience with the game and his system of choice:

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=261961&highlight=#261961

I especially like this quote:

"Yeah it is too bad. I really wanted to like this game but sadly after playing SW for so long a few other games just become lackluster. Not to mention as of late if even the slightest ill word is spoken of the FFG communities beloved new game they jump all over you and start making wild accusations that your a bad GM and that your doing it all wrong. Oh well, I was probably just gonna savage it anyway."

I'm actually surprised that a Savage Worlds fan would be so hostile to another game. I actually pictured him being a 4e guy (my apologies to 4e fans out there - teaches me not to stereotype). To be honest, a Savage might have an issue with 3e, because SW lives for minis and terrain, and 3e has neither (out of the box). 'Splains much.

What the hell does he mean 'as of late' these forums have become hostile. He registered YESTERDAY!!!

Posted at

....and here is the OP over on the Savage Worlds boards as of November 10, 2009. Just a few days before HE supposedly ran the demo:

lets see here....in no particular order:

1: Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd edition ( loved the clean up they did to 2nd ed. not a big fan of the new upcoming 3rd ed.)

2: Fate 3rd (don't like being tied to much to one single setting like Spirit of the Century but I love the re-visualized mechanics)

3: Earthdawn (so many fond memories from years gone by and it will always have a special place in my mind)

4: Classic Deadlands (it's technically not a Savage product but it's what got me to fall in love with Pinnacle in the first place)

5: Shadowrun (I've always liked the cyberpunk genre, but came back to fantasy gaming from time to time. It just seemed like a perfect fit)

His post can be found (it's on the 4th page) of the SW boards (just so folks don't think I'm putting words in his mouth):

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24874&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

I'd be all for FFG deleting this thread as the OP had NO interest in running 3e with any sense of fairness or even wanting the system to succeed (if he even ran the demo at all).

Posted at

He's as welcome to his opinion (and to express his opinion) as any other forum member, so long as it follows the rules and guidelines for posting conduct. In the coming days, as more and more people come to the forums to post about the game and the Emperor's Decree event, we will be seeing a wide and diverse fan community sharing their thoughts, feedback, and opinions.

I won't lock this thread, but I will use this as an opportunity to remind everyone to be mindful of the FFG forum posting guidelines . Forumites should refrain from making ad hominem attacks, or inflammatory trolling.

Posted at

My apologies to all involved.

I expect that there will be negative reviews of the system (heck, I expect that I won't like everything as-written). To me, it seemed like there were some inconsistencies with the tale as told... but I went too far.

Won't happen again...

Posted at

What's especially funny is that he admits in his post here that he had trouble understanding the rules, his knowledge of the rules were "spotty at best", and even in his post he gets a lot of things wrong (calling basic action cards, "Tactics" cards, saying he couldn't run a 4th player, etc). While he might be a decent GM at other times and with other games (like SW), straight from his mouth (well, hands cuz he's typing) he GM'd the demo poorly. How can you think you did well as a GM, if you couldn't understand or remember the majority of the game rules? How can you think that the players (and strangers to boot) will enjoy the game if the GM doesn't, and if the GM doesn't understand the rules. If I was handed a rulebook for a new game, different from most of the other games I've played before, and told to run the game in an hour, and if after reading the rulebook I had difficulty with the rules ... I wouldn't expect the game to play very well (I don't know if he had a time constraint to learn the rules or not). The majority of that, though, is not a fault of the game system. The fault is with the GM, who is the storyteller, and the director of the game. If the GM can't handle the game rules and story well (for whatever reason), then it is very difficult for the players to have fun, and for the game to seem like fun.

It is very crucial that a GM

a) Enjoy the game they are running

b) Know the rules

c) Know the story/adventure

A breakdown of just one of those is bad, and more than one can lead to disaster. It sounds like this guy didn't have either A or B, and I wouldn't be surprised if C was missing as well (due to A & B). Personally, if I wasn't thinking I would like WFRP 3e, I would not have volunteered to run the demo. I would have signed up to play instead, because GMing requires interest from the GM the most of all the group in order to have fun. I don't want to try to run a game I don't think I'd like, nor play a game with a GM who doesn't like the game he's running.

Posted at

More info on the Pinnacle forums

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=262012#262012

"The demo does start this weekend, but I was instructed by the shop owner to run it on thursday. It's odd that they wanted me to run it on a weekday since most people would be at work and what not, but they said that to run it on anytime this weekend would have the demo conflict with a lot of other games that would be running since space at my flgs is limited.

I do like the game, don't get me wrong, but coming from a long history with Savage Worlds; I struggled a bit with it on a few spots during play. I'm a huge fan of Warhammer and wanted to see this be a big hit, but there are a ton of Dark Heresy fans where I go and they don't like change all that well."

Does this make sense? Why would a store do this...it seems you are setting yourself up for failure. That is if you believe him that this really happened.

Posted at

The 'demo' (really more of a dry run) was done at

Hit Point Hobbies, Southern Pines, NC

Talked to an employee and the report the guy gave was confirmed by him (he played in it). They are not planning on running anything this weekend but offer to let me by and look through the box or run something if I wanted to.

edited to get the right store in the post.

Posted at

To be honest, just about ANY roleplaying game can become a muddy mess if the GM is ill prepared (in terms of knowledge of the rules) and none of the players know the rules either.

...Except for the Prince Valiant role playing game. Flipping coins was totally badass. We didn't care WHAT the rules were.

Incidentally, don't play that game if you're from Germany. The source material was from second world war era UK, so the bad guys are all Germanic and described in nasty ways.