But after the last attack roll, the last damage, the last ship is on the board? That's no longer during the match. So on top of the reason for concession perhaps being a rules violation, the timing of it is also against the rules.

Until you've completed the end phase of the round that had the final ship destroyed, the match is not over. Conceding after destroying your opponent's last ship would still be legal.

This is a clear case of collusion and the winner should give up his regional bye.

If one player concedes then the non-conceding player would receive a full win with 200 MOV, the conceding player gets a loss with 0 MOV. The match should be reported as 100-0 for the non-conceding player, this is why you should never concede a match you are "going to lose" and just play it out, especially if you have destroyed any of your opponents ships. Conceding a match will net you zero MOV points and a loss.

Conceed at the start of the game and there is a 100 point win for a 200/0 MoV.

Play for a while with some loses on both sides then a Concession is still giving up the rest of your ships but the opponent still has to lick his wounds. If a squad with HWK and the old Damage Deck is playing a bunch of TIEs the game could be going back and forth until the HWK is the last ship standing on one side but then loses its turret. Now there may be a lot of time left on the clock but the HWK player realizes that his chances against nimble, 3 agility targets, are almost non existant so he resigns instead of playing out his final destruction. Would you really penalize the guy with the HWK who may have destroyed 60+ points of TIEs before attaining an unwinnable situation by having him score a 0 point MoV while giving his opponent 200 points when if the game has played out the final scores may have been something like 76/124?

Back before MoV was the tiebreaker used you were strongly encouraged to Concede if your opponent was only going to get a modified win off of you. Why would you do that you ask? It was pretty simple; your tie breakers were determined by how "good" your opponents were and an opponent score 5 points on you was better than one who only scored 3; you got no points anyway so that doesn't make any difference.

This is a clear case of collusion and the winner should give up his regional bye.

I believe the only way for that to clearly be true is if this happened during the final round of eliminations. The one player may have had an easier time making the elimination rounds but he still had to win those to get his bye.

Or perhaps you'd rather see them both lose byes and be banned from X-Wing play forever?

I think collusion and concession need to be separated. You can concede any time during a match, and fine. If you do anything to expressly manipulate the tournament for a friend, that is collusion. I could inflate rankings by flying all of my ships off of the board. The Maneuvers are perfectly legal, but if it can be shown to be for the purpose of manipulation for someone else's gain it's still collusion.

This is a clear case of collusion and the winner should give up his regional bye.

I believe the only way for that to clearly be true is if this happened during the final round of eliminations. The one player may have had an easier time making the elimination rounds but he still had to win those to get his bye.

Or perhaps you'd rather see them both lose byes and be banned from X-Wing play forever?

and we dont even know if the person who won actually colluded! maybe he was like, "Please no! I dont want to collude for a win!" and the other player was all, "Shut up fool, I'll cut you"

This is a clear case of collusion and the winner should give up his regional bye.

I believe the only way for that to clearly be true is if this happened during the final round of eliminations. The one player may have had an easier time making the elimination rounds but he still had to win those to get his bye.

Or perhaps you'd rather see them both lose byes and be banned from X-Wing play forever?

This happened the last round before the final round. The concession guaranteed that he'd be in the top spot for the final game because it wasn't clear if there were any other 3-0 players at the time. When round three was finished, there was only one other 3-0 player. If I remember correctly, he was the only one that was even possible because I don't think there were any other 2-0 folks.

But after the last attack roll, the last damage, the last ship is on the board? That's no longer during the match. So on top of the reason for concession perhaps being a rules violation, the timing of it is also against the rules.

Until you've completed the end phase of the round that had the final ship destroyed, the match is not over. Conceding after destroying your opponent's last ship would still be legal.

From the OP, "In the third round, there was a match in which one player tabled another. After the match was complete and the two players were counting out points to fill out the results sheet, the victorious player decided to concede," so it sounds like that's not what we're talking about.

But after the last attack roll, the last damage, the last ship is on the board? That's no longer during the match. So on top of the reason for concession perhaps being a rules violation, the timing of it is also against the rules.

Until you've completed the end phase of the round that had the final ship destroyed, the match is not over. Conceding after destroying your opponent's last ship would still be legal.

From the OP, "In the third round, there was a match in which one player tabled another. After the match was complete and the two players were counting out points to fill out the results sheet, the victorious player decided to concede," so it sounds like that's not what we're talking about.

I wasn't responding to the situation described in the OP. I was responding to this statement by you:

But after the last attack roll, the last damage, the last ship is on the board? That's no longer during the match.

This is a clear case of collusion and the winner should give up his regional bye.

I believe the only way for that to clearly be true is if this happened during the final round of eliminations. The one player may have had an easier time making the elimination rounds but he still had to win those to get his bye.

Or perhaps you'd rather see them both lose byes and be banned from X-Wing play forever?

It sounds like there wasn't a cut from the description. And even then, if there'd been a cut and the concession allowed him to MAKE the cut where he might not have otherwise, he still wouldn't have gotten the bye if he'd fialed to make the cut, even if he DID manage to win all o fhis games after getting there.

is there a mod on this forum? the OP should let FFG know what SC this was. FFG should let the TO know, the winning player should have his win and regional bye forfeited. the player who conceded should be have a penalty, like a ban from the next regional or something like that.

imagine you had been the player ending 2nd in the SC, you might have won the SC without this cheating.

is there a mod on this forum? the OP should let FFG know what SC this was. FFG should let the TO know, the winning player should have his win and regional bye forfeited. the player who conceded should be have a penalty, like a ban from the next regional or something like that.

imagine you had been the player ending 2nd in the SC, you might have won the SC without this cheating.

I agree

imagine you had been the player ending 2nd in the SC, you might have won the SC without this cheating.

You also might have lost to the guy who beat the guy that beat you. Who knows.

is there a mod on this forum? the OP should let FFG know what SC this was. FFG should let the TO know, the winning player should have his win and regional bye forfeited. the player who conceded should be have a penalty, like a ban from the next regional or something like that.

imagine you had been the player ending 2nd in the SC, you might have won the SC without this cheating.

Doesn't failing to DQ a player at an event count as a missed opportunity?

Yeah I think that's pretty clearly cheating.

This is a clear case of collusion and the winner should give up his regional bye.

I believe the only way for that to clearly be true is if this happened during the final round of eliminations. The one player may have had an easier time making the elimination rounds but he still had to win those to get his bye.

Or perhaps you'd rather see them both lose byes and be banned from X-Wing play forever?

There are clear rules and breaking them at the competitive level events should be punished.

In that case it was too late to concede. The match was over.

If he would have concede immediately after destroying the last ship, it still would have been technically legal.

Collusion and sketchy as hell, but it would have been a legal window to concede.

If he felt bad about already winning an SC and wanted to give someone else a shot he could have bowed out of the cut and let whoever the next player in line was take his spot.

I'm less concerned about the timing of the concession than I am about the motive for the concession. If the concession were moved to the last legal moment--or even to the first legal moment--it would still represent collusion.

If I bring four naked HWKs to a tournament, am I effectively boosting everyone that gets lucky enough to play against me?

Not unless you can predict who you'll be paired with, no.

...unless the other guy asked him to concede, its not collusion. Collusion requires BOTH parties to actively engage with each other for that.

The relevant facts here are that an undefeated player was paired with a friend, and conceded the match with the express motivation of allowing his friend to pass through to the finals.

This is a clear case of collusion and the winner should give up his regional bye.

I hate to say it, because it's a big penalty to apply, but I agree.

Unpopular statement of the day: I disagree. The winner never asked for the concession, so did nothing wrong to warrant punishment. Wether or not the conceding player is a friend or not is irrelevant, especially if the stated motive for the concession is 'I already won one, you take my spot in the cut'. If the conceding player had done the same for a stranger you all would be praising them as a scion of the 'fly casual' mentality.

I love the smell of trolling in the morning. OP has a new account, no particulars are given, no mention of the TO at all and a ludicrous scenario.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

I love the smell of trolling in the morning. OP has a new account, no particulars are given, no mention of the TO at all and a ludicrous scenario.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

Not trolling at all. Just to conclude the thread though I'll address what Icareane brought up. My account is newer, I'm not a big forum guy. I only made it to ask a rules question before. Not sure how the age of my account is relevant to the issue, but you're not incorrect in saying it is new.

I left out some particulars because it was an ongoing issue, the TO (our FLGS owner) was waiting to hear back from FFG. This ludicrous scenario did unfortunately play out. The TO received a response from FFG yesterday. He posted it in the group's forum and Facebook group, and I've posted it below:

"While it’s unfortunate the players chose to play the entire game before Player A decided to concede the game, neither player appears to have broken any rules based on the account. Per the rules you quoted, a player may concede at any point during a match. While the tournament rules as they are currently worded suggest a player cannot concede once a match has finished, a player can concede at any time before the players submit the match results to the scorekeeper. This is a nuance we will fix in future iterations.

Collusion is any sort of manufactured result by players in which at least one of the players receives something in return for declaring that outcome. The players agreeing to share prizes would fall under this category.

In the end, the players did not break any official rules. If you are worried about ruining the fly casual atmosphere, you could always talk to the players involved and share your concerns, but FFG cannot support any sort of penalty/punishment for the actions presented.

Best,

Brendan Weiskotten

Organized Play Coordinator"

So that's the conclusion. To me it seems as though cheating via collusion occurred. The rules also seem to be written in a way that forbids concession after a match has been concluded. Submission of the scoring sheet isn't referenced in the rules at all in regards to concession or end of match conditions. However, according to Mr. Weiskotten, although the way things played out are "unfortunate" conceding a match you've already won with the expressed intent of boosting a friend into the winner's table is perfectly alright.

Everyone can make their own decision, but the above from Mr. Weiskotten makes me want to give up X-wing. Flying casual shouldn't mean not holding people responsible. But that's just my opinion.

Everyone can make their own decision, but the above from Mr. Weiskotten makes me want to give up X-wing. Flying casual shouldn't mean not holding people responsible. But that's just my opinion.

Wow man, I was tracking until this sentence, you are going to base your fun with xwing on one game in one tournament that is already over? Shrug it off, move on.

Oh and if you win all your games at a tournament it doesn't matter how much collusion may or may not be going on, you will still win. So just win all your games and you don't need to concern yourself with it next tourney.

Everyone can make their own decision, but the above from Mr. Weiskotten makes me want to give up X-wing. Flying casual shouldn't mean not holding people responsible. But that's just my opinion.

Wow man, I was tracking until this sentence, you are going to base your fun with xwing on one game in one tournament that is already over? Shrug it off, move on.

Oh and if you win all your games at a tournament it doesn't matter how much collusion may or may not be going on, you will still win. So just win all your games and you don't need to concern yourself with it next tourney.

It's an integrity thing for me. Winning is pointless if cheating is condoned. Everyone has their own opinion, I understand that. But for me, integrity and transparency are huge. If you go back and read this thread, most people seem to agree that it's a fishy situation, and a few folks call on the people involved to give up their byes. I understand it's a game, but the game is governed by rules. If the rules are allowed to be bent and tweaked, then the rules don't matter. And if the rules governing the game don't matter, then it pushes to the outcome of the game not mattering.

I appreciate your response though. I understand I have a more extreme view. Things not being done with integrity is my biggest pet peeve.

I just have to ask to all those who dislike this outcome because the concession came "after the match was already over."

Let's say the situation is the same (two friends playing, one of whom already has a regional bye).

The player with the bye says at the start of the match, "I already have a bye, you win this one, but let's play it out anyways," and then proceeds to table his opponent. Match is reported as a 200-0 win for the player without the bye.

Do you still have problems with this?


I'm personally not a fan of manipulating results ("Hey, if we draw the last round of swiss, we both make the cut" -- I've seen that happen before in various other games, though not yet in X-Wing), but I don't see this the same as what some others here apparently do, as collusion. In the scenario as presented, the player who was conceded to did not ask for the concession, or offer anything for the concession. It did occur after the game had been played, but the conceding player didn't gain anything by doing it.

So collusion only happens if a person gets a physical reward in exchange for participating in score fixing? What a bogus ruling.

So I can cheat as long as I'm not the one benefitting. Got it!

... It did occur after the game had been played, but the conceding player didn't gain anything by doing it.

But he did. He got the satisfaction of having his friend go on to the finals. Wold he do the same for ANY opponent?