Corellian Gunship. Probably won't see it in XWing, so I can at least hope for it here. I'd kinda like to see the Lancer as well.

I could see getting a new rebel ace that allows squadrons at distance 1 when they activate to move and shoot, but maybe not shoot than move. That would give you the ability to have a more independent fighter group. It would also include the wave 1 fighters and go with the feel that such independent groups were usually led by one of the heroes. I kinda hope the rebels get some AOE type bonus anyways.

I'd like to see a front arc heavy rebel ship to run with my nebulon Bs. Right now they feel orphaned.

Other mechanics-

Mines

Combined fire from multiple ships into one shot

Playing with activation order

Manipulating speed and maneuverability of the enemy ala more tractor beams or the interdictor.

Stealth- probably more along the lines of increases the range bracket by one than warping in somewhere.

I don't think you have to short-stick the fighters already out. Named squads could work. Or just a rules revision giving rebel fighters rogue unless otherwise stated. I agree the X and Y wings were independent strike platforms. I'm not seeing a hyperspace deployed independent fighter as a replacement for what ships carry. We do see in the movies that ships carry fighters, so it only makes sense they'd be there whether you had any independent ones involved in the action or not.

Essentially, any rebel fighter squad would have rogue. Only marked Imperial would (like the Defender). You could even differentiate independent squads from ship based squads by making them smaller, thus giving a bump to ship based.

Now I do agree we don't want the whole table to end up covered in fighters, but I think it won't matter which route you go, carrier or independent deployment, you can still field a load of fighters. Just one way requires a ship. A ship which, arguably, should be a pretty helpless entry in the capital on capital arena.

So, for the sake of faction differentiation, I'd go with rogue rebel squads, and give the Imps the carriers.

It's not enough that Rebel starfighters are better all around (what, with nearly all of the wave 1 generics having Bomber), but you want to give all of them rogue too? Frankly I'd love some kind of interesting thing for the Imperial fighters to do instead of always defaulting to Rhymer. Powerful as he is, he's the only fighter on the Empire side with entire lists built around exploiting his ability. There needs to be another 16-ish point fighter that is just as great, but a different dynamic, forcing players to pick between one or the other. Guhf.

Otherwise in terms of ships, the Empire needs another generalist I feel. Rebel ships have all manner of ships in different sizes that can fit any role you want, but the Empire is segregated between close-range attackers and expensive ships with ranged dice. The only generalist is the ISD-II, which the most expensive ship in the game. And the VSDs are not only slow, but they can't protect themselves well against the increasingly common XI7. Some kind of medium cruiser that fights at blue/red range but can tank well would be great to make up for the disappointment that is the VSD- hopefully with some cards to help out the VSD as well.

Valid and good points, Norsehound. To counter, I'd say increase the cost of rebel fighter squads and make the Imps cheaper. They were throwaway, after all. Swarms versus quality. The only way to know would be play testing, which I have no doubt there'd be plenty of before moving ahead with any of these ideas. And that's presuming we try to shoehorn the game more into the themes seen in the movies. Which, given that there are really only about 2 large scale fleet engagements in the entirety of the first 7 movies, is kind of silly.

While I wouldn't mind seeing more of the theme of the factions worked into the game, perhaps it's better for the health of the game if we don't go that route.

As to the Victory being a bit of an explosion waiting to happen, myself I'm going to pin this on the Victory being junk. ... No really, not being snide. The Victory was old. It's the Z-95 of Armada (wrong faction but yeah). Even the ISD's were getting long in the tooth as far as they were already updating them. And the TIE's? Ouch. TIE's were almost d.o.a.

I trust we'll see new cards or ships that bring the Victory (and other ships) back into the mix. We have to remember, this is the first edition of Armada and there will be things that players come up with that all the play testing in the world will miss. I expect Armada 2.0 is only a matter of time. Especially if they are going to bring out ships used in the new movies. There's no way something dating almost back to the Clone Wars is going to be able to set hull in the same sector as a warship 40 to 60 years newer without an insane amount of upgrades.

Really? A new version of the game when Armada is only a year old?

The problem with the Victory was that it was supposed to be the Imperial answer to the Assault Frigate (or its the other way around, the A/F was the response to the VSD). During Wave 1 the higher firepower of the VSD and smaller list sizes meant VSDs had more of a presence than they do now. Now with the points increase, more ships (like the A/F) can afford more upgrades (like affording both XI7s and ECMs) and more ships put into a usual list. Ackbar doesn't help matters either.

So yes, with evidence to back up the VSD being "junk", we're looking at one ship (out of four) on the Imperial side being worthless. This worthless ship being the only medium in the Imperial lineup and one of two long-range attackers. This leaves Empire with two close-range brawlers (one being a special snowflake) and the most expensive ship in the game as reliable options. Compared to everything in the Rebellion being wonderful and functional.

...plenty of holes to be filled for the Empire with new ships that are more well-rounded.

Okay, let me first state more clearly that when I say Armada 2.0 is only a matter of time, I didn't mean months. I've played games a long time (as have most here, I expect) and with some of the issues popping up already, scenting a 1.5 or 2.0 on the wind isn't crazy, just long sighted. X-Wing came out around GenCon in 2012, I believe. We got a new core set (essentially 2.0, updated rules) in or around December of 2015. So 7 (seven and a half?) waves, but only 3 years old.

I'd expect a rule revision of Armada within the same span of time. That's all I meant.

When your very first expansion breaks the core set and leaves one faction's ship "worthless;" forgive me, but that sounds in need of adjusting to me. Nor is it just the Victory. I've seen and heard quite a bit of grumbling about the Raider being a waste of points as well, not to mention abilities that folks have shaken their hands at God over.

And some of this is just play style and grumbling to grumble, I get that. But I expect we'll continue to see ships "break" as new ship models, characters, and possibly abilities are released. All the play testing in the world can't catch what clever players come up with.

I do think we should expect some cards to amend this, bringing the Victory (or whatever ship needs it) back into the fray as useful. But what the answer isn't is to leave one or more ships as "worthless" and keep pumping out new models to keep fleet builds effective. Players are smart, and I imagine they'll figure that out fast and be quite hostile about it. And I realize you weren't saying that was the answer.

I expect we'll see FFG strive to keep all the models a reasonable choice to keep on the table. A balance of abilities, point costs, etc. that gives each their niche. At least I hope so. I'll be rather disappointed if they don't.

Everyone hears the Grumbling.

Because the Grumbling is the loudest.

That doesn't make it true.

Just Loud.

My first instinct is to try improving the ship based on the upgrade cards it has. Empire, for instance, have near universal access to offensive slots... both the Raider and Victory have these. My impulse is, if the ship dies too quickly, make it hit harder in the lifespan that it has to make up for it.

I think Offensive structures that help the ship they're on would be a good start. Many of them pertain only to fighters and are often ignored, in contrast to the defensive structures which always help the ship they are attached to.

I do definitely think the Empire is disadvantaged... but I think I feel that way because I'm a pessimist and primarily Imperial player. I wonder if I'd feel this way had I been on a Rebel bias, where by flying the ships more regularly I'd perceive more problems with them. Still, at least theoretically, I perceive more issues with Imperial ships than Rebel ones *shrug*

The issue I think with the Victory is the lack of a defensive retrofit slot. I also think the VSD II should be able to move slightly tighter as it was a later/upgraded design over the VSD 1 which is basically a Clone Wars ship.

That being said, I ran 3 VSD 1's at a comp as a flat out carrier fleet with the Moff Tarkin himself and came fourth. The VSD 1 is friggin evil once it gets into range, and they weren't even built as gun boats. Granted I had help from the R-ball-o-doom but when I got off some front shots, ships went away...fast!

Now what this game could use, is a capital ship that could brawl, but act as a dedicated carrier...and that ship would flat out be the Venator.

However I'm sure the mouse has other plans...

A medium size, red dice, speed 3 maybe 4 for Imp. And an Escort with Counter too.

Otherwise in terms of ships, the Empire needs another generalist I feel. Rebel ships have all manner of ships in different sizes that can fit any role you want, but the Empire is segregated between close-range attackers and expensive ships with ranged dice. The only generalist is the ISD-II, which the most expensive ship in the game. And the VSDs are not only slow, but they can't protect themselves well against the increasingly common XI7. Some kind of medium cruiser that fights at blue/red range but can tank well would be great to make up for the disappointment that is the VSD- hopefully with some cards to help out the VSD as well.

Wasn't that kind of the major difference between the Rebels and Imperials in the first place? The Rebels were a rag-tag organisation, so had to take the ships they could get and adapt them to their purposes. By comparison, the Imperials fielded specialists - just looking at the ships we have, an anti-fighter ship, a brawler, and a commanding capital ship, all with a dedicated role. That also goes for fighters - the Rebels needed independent squadrons, because they often wouldn't have the capital ships to back them up; the Imperials relied on swarms of ships.

Of course the Empire had more generalist ships too, and I think a medium based ship between the Gladiator and the Victory is what we're looking for. If you watch shows like Star Wars Rebels, we see small groups of Imperial Light Cruisers operating independently, and that's a class and style of ship I can see being highly likely in the next wave; ones that can fulfill a wider variety of roles.

But the two sides also need to be kept distinct, so that you're forced to choose between different styles of tactics, as well as different ships. Otherwise all that's separating the two is aesthetics.

I don't think you have to short-stick the fighters already out. Named squads could work. Or just a rules revision giving rebel fighters rogue unless otherwise stated. I agree the X and Y wings were independent strike platforms. I'm not seeing a hyperspace deployed independent fighter as a replacement for what ships carry. We do see in the movies that ships carry fighters, so it only makes sense they'd be there whether you had any independent ones involved in the action or not.

Essentially, any rebel fighter squad would have rogue. Only marked Imperial would (like the Defender). You could even differentiate independent squads from ship based squads by making them smaller, thus giving a bump to ship based.

Now I do agree we don't want the whole table to end up covered in fighters, but I think it won't matter which route you go, carrier or independent deployment, you can still field a load of fighters. Just one way requires a ship. A ship which, arguably, should be a pretty helpless entry in the capital on capital arena.

So, for the sake of faction differentiation, I'd go with rogue rebel squads, and give the Imps the carriers.

I disagree with giving all rebels rogue. Yes they could operate more independently than Imperials, but no-one's going to pretend they could take on an entire fleet on their own without the backing of capital ships. Rebel fighters should be more flexible, but they still need ships to be based on.

I think a more realistic change, and one that would mean not altering the current dynamics of the game too dramatically, would be to create elite squadrons for the Rebels that themselves have Rogue, and that give Rogue to one or two squadrons within close-range prior to their movement. What that creates is fighter wings that have the ability to operate independently, so long as they're led by an elite squadron. It gives a balance between squadrons dependent on the capital ships, and independent strike groups that can operate more flexibly.

With the Empire it would be slightly different. Elite squadrons would have Rogue and more enhanced abilities in attack (such as extra dice or re-rolls compared to standard squadrons), but wouldn't be able to give rogue to squadrons around them. This reflects the fact that some Imperial squadrons developed independence, but they were the exception rather than the norm, and the bulk of the Imperial force was reliant on numbers over creativity.

I think you could do it quite easily by giving the Elite Rebel Squadrons a title like 'Wing Commander', and the Elite Imperial Squadrons a title like 'Dogfighter' (less sure of that latter one, but something similar would work). That would maintain the dynamics of the current game, introduce elements that are in keeping with canon and encourage players to play to the style that their faction relied upon.

(EDIT: Now that I think of it, 'Baron' might make a good key word for Imperial elite squadrons. It was the title given to Soontir Fel, and that was given to outstanding pilots. In terms of ability comparable to 'Wing Commander', how about something as simple as crits count as hits? Means an elite squadron packs more of a punch.)

Not to derail this interesting thread, but neither Victories or Raiders are worthless. You may not want to build a fleet with just those ships, but they have a role. The key is that the raider can't just charge in, it evaporates, and the VSD just can't charge in period. They may not be top tier stand alone ships, but not all things can, this game isn't that perfect (but by far one of the best I've played).

But, enough of that. I want to see at least 1 more medium ship for each side. I'd love to see a carrier ship and a "specialist" ship. My thought being we're gonna get the interdictor cruiser (at least I really want it). The interdictor is right on the split between small and medium. Aside from some interesting mechanics you could introduce, what if the ship was relatively weak in fire power but had multiple support crew slots (thus allowing shenanigans with engineering techs and projection experts). No idea if it could be balanced right, but in wave two they introduced dual retrofit slots, how bout dual crew slots?

I would like to see much more ships in the frigate-cruiser size somewhere between the VSD and the Corvettes.

But I think most needed are some scenario and objetives or narrative play ships, like stations shuttles and freighters.

But I already have a whislist:

Wave 3:

Imperium:

- Immobilizer 418

- Lancer Frigate

Alliance:

- Neutron Star-class Bulk Cruiser

- Quasar escort carrier

Wave 4:

Imperium:

- Ton-Falk-class escort carrier

- Strike cruiser

- Imperial Fighter part II (Xg-1, TIE-Avenger, TIE-Defender, TIE-Phantom, TIE-Heavy Bomber)

Alliance:

- Liberty Type Mc80

- Mc40

Scum (Rebels, Pirates and others):

- Fighterpack (Z-95, T-Wing, R-41 Starchasers ...)

Wave 5:

Imperium:

- Nebulon B2

- System Patrol Craft

Alliance:

- Assualt frigate Mk.I

-CC 7700 frigate

Both sides

- Dreadnought

- Transport and shuttles (Lambda Shuttle,Delta-class JV-7 Escort shuttles, Delta-class DX-9 Stromtrooper transport,Gamma-class ATR-6 Assault transport, Beta-class ETR-3 Assault transport)

Wave 6:

Imperium:

- Carrack Cruiser

- Tartan Cruiser

Alliance:

- DP20 Correllian Gunship

- Marauder

Wave 7:

Freighters, minefields and stations wave

Scoutpack (Y-Wing Longprobe, Recon A-Wing, TIE Scout, TIE Vanguard)

Wave 8:

New Republic:

- New Republic Fighters (E-Wing, K-Wing)

- Republic Star Destroyers

- Dauntless Cruiser

Wave 9:

CIS:

-Lucrehulk-class

-Providence-class

-Recusant-class light destroyer

-Droid Fighter packs

Both Sides/ Old Republic:

- Venator Class

- Acclamator class

- Old Republic Fighters (Arc, Jedi-Fighter, V-Wing)

Wave 10

First order
Resurgent-class Star Destroyer
Nebulon-K

TIE/fo and TIE/sf and other untl then appeared First order fighters

Resistance
Until then appeared captial Ships
Nebulon-K

Republic/Resistance Carrack Cruiser
T-70 X-Wing, T-85 X-Wing, B-Wing Mk. II

Wave 11
Mandalorian ships

Wave 12

Hapan and Chiss ships

Wave 13

Hutt and Blacksun ships

I really want to see more Small and Medium based ships. With the Imperial class and MC-80, we have enough large ships.

There are so many small and mediums to choose from; even if they just used ships from rebels you would have

Alliance:

Quasar Fire Carrier

Pelta Frigate

Hammerhead type Transport

Empire:

Immobilizer Cruiser

Arquitens Light Cruiser

Gozanti Transport

I mean, that would be a pretty great wave right there.

I think the rebel star fighter issue could simply be addressed with an ace ability. "Fighters at distance one gain 'rogue'". Heck, that'd be pretty appropriate for Lando in the falcon.

I am a staunchly rebel player.

Do not let me get Rogue B-Wings.

Ever.

I will never be able to get a game again.

I am a staunchly rebel player.

Do not let me get Rogue B-Wings.

Ever.

I will never be able to get a game again.

At least you can collect and dream while the rest of us battle..... hehehe

I think giving rebel fighters Rogue is a bad idea...they are already pretty tough to begin with.

If anything a ship that can carry them into battle and use them to good potential would be much more beneficial.

Well, bestowing rogue on rebel ships is not by itself broken. I dunno what the cost sweet spot is, but let's say the ace cost 60 points. It wouldn't be auto-include then!

Well, bestowing rogue on rebel ships is not by itself broken. I dunno what the cost sweet spot is, but let's say the ace cost 60 points. It wouldn't be auto-include then!

Aces is basically what I mean by Elite Squadron - standard Imperial or Rebel fighters, but with enhanced abilities. Rogue to give each ace squadron manoeuvrability, a keyword (Wing Commander) that allows Rebel aces to confer rogue on 1-2 other squadrons at distance one (reflecting Rebel squadrons' greater independence), and a keyword (Baron) that allows Imperial aces to use all the faces (including accuracies and crits) in their dice pool (reflecting elite Imperials' squadrons standing out from usual doctrine). Limit of of one ace squadron-type per fleet, similar point cost to the more expensive of the rogues. Think 60 is pretty high - a rogue B-wing is still a B-wing!

Keeps the rules as they stand, introduces some canon elements, varies gameplay but remains in keeping with the doctrine that the two sides used.

Well, bestowing rogue on rebel ships is not by itself broken. I dunno what the cost sweet spot is, but let's say the ace cost 60 points. It wouldn't be auto-include then!

See that is where I've seen games swing from fun, to dumb. I used to play flames of war and witnessed a combo of a fowl mouthed warrior + an army special rule + a fast moving list build = game over before the other guy rolls dice.

What I like with Armada is that CANNOT happen!

However, the above example taught me that no one specific thing is broken, it's the synergy with other components that makes it hard...and as waves progress the harder that job becomes.

Fighters are fine, they just need more things added...Tie Defenders would be swell.

The Rebels honestly just need ships that have a good frontal arc, because lets be real here...the Conga Line beat down lists are fun, but get old to face...giving them another broadsider just adds onto the problem.

The Liberty and the Mk1 frigate would be great complimentors to the Nebulon B's....which I love to play to be honest.

Heavily shielded but low firepower rebel carrier, to go close quarters for squadron activations and not just crumble.

Long range fragile imperial sniper. To give the rebels some ipetous to close the range every so often.

I like head on engagements... I have yet to buy the set but will be in the next month or so. Broadside are fun.. but I love mixed fleets if they work. Cant wait to see what FFG is going to release in the next wave