Hm, the male zeltron in our group is constantly trying to ... er ah, charm people.

I like Zeltrons. But I don't feel that their natural emphatic abilities are taken into consideration when designing their stat block. Regardless of what their ability scores are I think they should have a special ability outside of a talent or skill rank. Something like the following.

Natural Empath: A Zeltron can cause selected emotions to heighten or lessen in an engaged creature capable of feeling them. At the cost of 2 strain a Zeltron can use the Natural Empath maneuver to manipulate the emotions of a creature within short range adding a boost or setback dice to the affected creatures next skill check. A creature only gains the Natural Empath modification if it remains within short range of the Zeltron.

I think what Brad is getting at is that we should consider our audience. The unofficial menagerie came from this very community. It is so widely accepted that it is included in one of, if not THE most used tool in oggdude's character generator. Your audience is guaranteed to make the comparison. We're going to be interested in your opinion as to why you prefer your version.

Indeed. When writing, above all else, we must consider our audience. If we fail to give our audience the respect they deserve, then we have failed at our first job as a writer. If we fail at that, how can we expect them to take us seriously on anything else?

While I don't allow any unofficial non-FFG material at my table, I still have immense respect for the people who created the USM.

I don't think anyone is claiming it's 'official' - it's just a valuable resource for many.

I agree with Kaosoe - 'Distracting Behaviour' pretty much covers this.

I'm surprised we never saw them in EoE - they would have been a much better fit for Colonist than all the freaky species we got

For the Zeltron write-up in the USM prior to any further updates being put on indefinite hiatus, I was debating about giving them the Sense Emotions talent to reflect their empathic abilities, even if they weren't Force-sensitive, since it seemed to fit. Or at least giving them something of that nature. But at the same time, something like that starts pushing them too far into being a "face" character, something I wanted to try and avoid since we've got Zeltrons such as Dani and Delilah Blue who can be quite charming, but that's not the core aspect of their characters as both ladies are very competent combatants, in addition to Delilah being a highly skilled mechanic.

GMKR,

What version are you looking at? There's been plenty of revisions since the initial document was released, and I tried to correct all the skill names from the Beta versions to the finalized versions. Easy way to tell if you're looking at an earlier version is if there are any species that are included in the document but have been officially published (such as those found in Enter the Unknown and the AoR core rulebook), which were kept in the document for posterity but moved to an archive section.

The big problem with the USM is it is incorrect.

However, it’s easy to ignore the parts that are outdated.

It has incorrect stats for published species

Species that have made it to published species are incorrect.

That’s to be expected. You can just ignore those entries.

It has not been updated in a long time.

Yup, it’s pretty old.

But it is still one of the best references in this space that has ever been produced by or for this community.

It is pretty clear the current "unofficial" species design method that is listed in the recent Keith Kappel interview is not followed.

Maybe because his new method is new, and we don’t know for sure what method was used by the developers of the USM? I mean, they don’t really document in detail how they arrived where they did.

This is one of the things I like best about the work from StrangeBob, because he does exhaustively detail all of his references and explains his rationale behind every decision he makes regarding a species.

But then the USM is old. I think we’ve said that before.

New game builders are not required to consider Xbox 360 architecture before developing for xbox one.

Ask Microsoft how well it works to completely ignore your installed base when coming out with new stuff.

The elephant in the room is the installed base. Ignore them at your peril.

If the USM wants to even be in the conversation, it needs to be updated and the published species removed.

The USM is just a PDF. It is an inanimate object. It has no wants or needs.

You, as a writer, are presumably a sentient, sapient, living breathing being. And as a writer, you would hopefully have some sense of this little thing called history. Moreover, as a writer, you would hopefully have something other than contempt for your audience.

Due to the changes between accepted methods and wildly different stat blocks any GM considering using ANYTHING from the USM needs to take heed.

People do need to pay attention to anything they use from the USM, yes. That’s true for any fan-published material.

That’s also true for any publication that is a little older — even works from FFG are not immune to these factors.

What if a Player selects a USM species stat block and then during the course of play, that species gets published..

Does the Player get to switch to the new one, if it is more fun?

Does the Player get stuck with the old one even if the differences are large (like the Aqualish)?

This is definitely a discussion that should happen between the GM and the respective players, before a species from the USM is selected.

You have a similar problem with officially published materials from FFG — what happens when they publish a new book that adds a lot more stuff to another specialization that would now fit your character concept a lot better?

Throwing all publications of any sort out the window, this is the kind of discussion that should be open between the GM and the players for anything and everything they do, throughout the entire game.

If you’re not willing and ready to do that, then I have to question whether you are ready to play this game. In fact, in that case I would question whether or not you are ready to participate in this little thing we call “Real Life”.

So, in summary, USM should not be considered at all, let alone in comparison, except as a lesson on why to be very careful with fan made materials.

This conclusion is not at all supported by the evidence you presented.

All you have really demonstrated is what we already knew about the USM — it’s been a while since it was created, and it’s a fan-made supplement.

GMKR,

What version are you looking at? There's been plenty of revisions since the initial document was released, and I tried to correct all the skill names from the Beta versions to the finalized versions. Easy way to tell if you're looking at an earlier version is if there are any species that are included in the document but have been officially published (such as those found in Enter the Unknown and the AoR core rulebook), which were kept in the document for posterity but moved to an archive section.

I normally ignore the thing, but the version that was posted in this thread is what I pulled the information from.

So, in summary, USM should not be considered at all, let alone in comparison, except as a lesson on why to be very careful with fan made materials.

This conclusion is not at all supported by the evidence you presented.

All you have really demonstrated is what we already knew about the USM — it’s been a while since it was created, and it’s a fan-made supplement.

I list 4 main comments with supplementary information. The 4 comments you agreed with. The 4 comments 100% equal the conclusion.

If Issue 1 is valid, Issue 2 is valid, Issue 3 is valid, and Issue 4 is valid, the conclusion of "it should not be used, except to learn how to avoid Issue 1/2/3/4" is valid. That is 100% supported by the evidence and your agreement of the evidence and using the USM should be done only at the GM's peril.

A side note, why are you stating "do this at your own peril" nearly every single post? Either you are stating, "Ignore the USM as your game will break if you do things other than this method" (using the definition = serious and immediate danger) or you are threatening me (using the definition = expose to danger; threaten) Neither definition is at all supported by the evidence you presented.

You say it's incorrect, but that's a matter of personal opinion, and not a fact, seeing as they are functionally serviceable to many, and were developed using the same sources as official writers use.

You say it's wrong because it originated with the beta, and use only the spelling of a single word as an example. My copy of the Beginner's Game uses the terms from the beta.

You say it's wrong because some of the stats have been overruled, but seeing as it was made in a time when we had only eight options to begin with, it's to be expected. And even then, Lead by Example just got released and it has incorrect stats. LibrariaNPC's beautiful selection of starships slowly get outdated, but it's still a highly useful resource.

You say it's wrong because it hasn't been updated, but many things haven't been updated since being finished, and they aren't outdated. Not to mention the demise of further development is more complicated.

You say it's wrong because it doesn't match modern standards, but there is no standard. When Brad brought it up, I took it more of a "hey, some other people have put out unofficial stats, maybe you want to take a look-see and compare, maybe you might like it more?" I look it at more of a courtesy and respect, both for the poster and for those who spent time assembling the USM, especially seeing as they did it for the benefit of the community.

But posting this is going to be irrelevant, I'm sure, because I'm reminded of a certain forum member who got pretty testy whenever the USM was brought up, and not just that, but pretty much all fan-produced material. In fact, I seem to recall them also having a name with the initials "G", "M," "K," and "R." Strange coincidence, hmm?

This is definitely a discussion that should happen between the GM and the respective players, before a species from the USM is selected.

You have a similar problem with officially published materials from FFG — what happens when they publish a new book that adds a lot more stuff to another specialization that would now fit your character concept a lot better?

Exactly. When we were playing with trees from the AoR and F&D betas, we went into this knowing that our characters could undergo changes when the official releases came out. Everyone was prepared for that and we were all okay with that.

Same thing with using any fan generated material - if an official source comes out, you should be prepared for it to override the homebrewed material.

Is the Alien Guide outdated? Of course it is - time marches on, and we have a dozen more books now than we did when it was released. Is it still useful? Absolutely.

But posting this is going to be irrelevant, I'm sure, because I'm reminded of a certain forum member who got pretty testy whenever the USM was brought up, and not just that, but pretty much all fan-produced material.

I am pretty sure my point is defending the fan produced content that the OP provided. If you are not seeing that as the point I am confused what you are reading. The first comment to the thread was berating this work.

As to the rest, here are facts, and opinions separated out;

• It has not been updated in a while,
  • fact
• It has stat blocks that are contradicted by published material,
  • fact
• It has a possibility to be disruptive to a game,
  • opinion, with evidence.
• It can be an issue if a species is used from it, and that species gets published,
  • fact. How big of an issue is due to the Players and GM.
• It is made by a fan(s),
  • fact
• It is not "official",
  • fact
• There is no rule requiring anyone use it, or even ever look at it,
  • fact
• There should be no unofficial rule requiring anyone use it, or even ever look at it,
  • opinion, but very reasonable.
• People agree (and have done so in this thread) to the stated fact,
  • this is also a fact.
• People have not disputed the issues I have presented, but have attempted to justify the issues,
  • this is also a fact.

Regardless of your opinion of the facts, they are clear. Regardless of your opinion of ME the OP was trying to contribute to the community and was told that the community only cares if the USM AND GMAC are consulted as if they were some sort of bible. This is not rude of me to point this out, it is rude of the community to treat the new person this way.

Hopefully the new person does not feel worried that additional content they try to provide will receive similar ire from the community for doing nothing wrong.

What's the value of some of those facts in context with the discussion, however? You stated that the USM is incorrect, an opinion, and are trying to build it up as fact. What does 'it hasn't been updated' have to do with it as a resource for people use, or reference? Nothing, it's trivial, other than somebody wanting to use it getting remorseful over the fact the creators moved on; Age of Rebellion hasn't been updated with official errata, but it's still not been invalidated. What does the fact that some of the blocks have been supplanted mean? Nothing; by it's intention and nature, the USM was and is a stopgap, a community project that was put together to sustain more options than the official books gave, and it still partially fulfills that purpose. It is doing what it was expected to do.

• It has a possibility to be disruptive to a game,
  • opinion, with evidence.
• It can be an issue if a species is used from it, and that species gets published,
  • fact. How big of an issue is due to the Players and GM.

These contradict each other. You bring up the same scenario twice and call one an opinion (you're helpfully colored opinion) and the other a fact. They are possibilities, and a possibility can hardly be considered fact or opinion, but, at best, an educated guess.

It is made by a fan(s),

So? Everything about the game line is made by fans of Star Wars. "Official" is also a technicality, as Disney doesn't consider FFG's material official. The only thing 'official' about it is FFG can sell the product, and we are the customers. And because the game is their brain child, they have final say.

• There is no rule requiring anyone use it, or even ever look at it,
  • fact

True, yes. But it is not fact that somebody can reference it; you seemed to take exception to it being brought up at all, and then posted why you didn't like about it, and I quote: "The big problem with the USM is it is incorrect."

People agree (and have done so in this thread) to the stated fact,

So?

People have not disputed the issues I have presented, but have attempted to justify the issues,

Sorry, let me clear that up for you: I am disputing the issues. My dispute with the issues is I think they're bogus, and I have my reasons why. Justifying why something is the way it is is a perfectly valid way of disputing issues.

Regardless of your opinion of ME the OP was trying to contribute to the community and was told that the community only cares if the USM AND GMAC are consulted as if they were some sort of bible. This is not rude of me to point this out, it is rude of the community to treat the new person this way.

Hopefully the new person does not feel worried that additional content they try to provide will receive similar ire from the community for doing nothing wrong.

It seems the OP didn't take much issue with it being brought up. I can't speak for them, but they didn't make any comments on the subject one way or another. And I stand by what I said:

When Brad brought it up, I took it more of a "hey, some other people have put out unofficial stats, maybe you want to take a look-see and compare, maybe you might like it more?" I look it at more of a courtesy and respect, both for the poster and for those who spent time assembling the USM, especially seeing as they did it for the benefit of the community.

I am pretty sure my point is defending the fan produced content that the OP provided. If you are not seeing that as the point I am confused what you are reading. The first comment to the thread was berating this work.

As to the rest, here are facts, and opinions separated out;

It has not been updated in a while,

fact

True enough. Also true of the EotE CRB. It has had very minor corrections between printings, but no more. The USM has had more updates and more substantive updates in less time.

Therefore, this fact you claim supports your argument in fact is not relevant to the matter at hand.

It has stat blocks that are contradicted by published material,

fact

True enough. Also true of other FFG SWRPG publications, where they sometimes contradict other FFG SWRPG publications.

Therefore, this fact you claim supports your argument in fact is not relevant to the matter at hand.

It has a possibility to be disruptive to a game,

opinion, with evidence.

Still valid enough. However, this is also true of other FFG SWRPG publications.

Therefore, this opinion you claim supports your argument is actually not relevant to the matter at hand.

It can be an issue if a species is used from it, and that species gets published,

fact. How big of an issue is due to the Players and GM.

True enough. Also true of other FFG SWRPG publications, where they sometimes contradict other FFG SWRPG publications.

Therefore, this fact you claim supports your argument in fact is not relevant to the matter at hand.

It is made by a fan(s),

fact

True enough, but irrelevant. See above.

It is not "official",

fact

True enough, but irrelevant. See above.

[ … continued in my next post … ]

[ … continued from my previous post … ]

There is no rule requiring anyone use it, or even ever look at it,

fact

True enough, but equally applicable to any and all FFG SWRPG publications. Irrelevant. See above.

There should be no unofficial rule requiring anyone use it, or even ever look at it,

opinion, but very reasonable.

True enough, but irrelevant.

However, if you’re going to publish your own writeups for one or more species, you would be very well served by studying this unofficial fan publication very carefully, and making sure that you fully and completely understand it before you publish anything that contradicts it. Same with the GMAC thread. A lot of work went into both of these fan-made unofficial products. No harm will come to you by studying them, and you’re likely to learn a lot of useful information as you go through your own process to try to develop your custom species writeup.

People agree (and have done so in this thread) to the stated fact,

this is also a fact.

Non-sequitor. I can’t tell if you’re saying anything relevant here or not.

People have not disputed the issues I have presented, but have attempted to justify the issues,

this is also a fact.

You’ve made a lot of pompous statements, and at this point you appear to be demonstrating that you are either incapable of understanding the responses, or you are intentionally mis-understanding the responses.

Regardless of your opinion of the facts, they are clear. Regardless of your opinion of ME the OP was trying to contribute to the community and was told that the community only cares if the USM AND GMAC are consulted as if they were some sort of bible. This is not rude of me to point this out, it is rude of the community to treat the new person this way.

Frankly, the community was treated rudely to begin with, by someone randomly spamming a bunch of posts around where they didn’t bother to do any research at all on proper etiquette for posting, and who didn’t bother to do any research on prior art.

So, you’ve let loose a lot of hot air and harangued us for our treatment of a newcomer, but all you’ve proven is that you have no grasp of logic, no ability to properly debate or discuss topics, and that you’re a grumpy old fart who is annoyed at the treatment someone else got when they made some basic mistakes on their first posts to this community, and so you’ve got to continue to grump at us to get off your metaphorical lawn.

But then I haven’t seen you around here until very recently, so I have to question whether you’ve got any standing to even play the clueless grumpy old fart card.

But then I haven’t seen you around here until very recently, so I have to question whether you’ve got any standing to even play the clueless grumpy old fart card.

This comment is the essence of everything wrong I am trying to point out. The "standing" I have to make the comment is "I am a fan". As another "fan" you have zero authority to tell any other "fan" what they are required to do before making a "fan-made" product for the community. That is all. No insults, no screaming, no threats, no need for 2 posts to say, this type of thinking is wrong.

Even in the 2 posts worth, you still agreed with all my points, which is confusing why you think "you solve for all the variables correctly, but I dispute that those variables put into a single sentence is correct".

As to their "treating the community" rudely. Maybe they wanted to discuss each species separately (which has been done in the past), and in that case it is 100% accurate for them to separate. Though I did point out in a previous post "potentially" the only thing he did wrong was not consolidate, but consolidation could have caused confusion with suggestions.

If being told that you have the same authority as everyone else offends you, I apologize that you are offended by it, but that does not make the statement less true.

Deleted...

Done with this.

I've never put someone on ignore so I don't know how. Can someone help me?

deleted...

I've never put someone on ignore so I don't know how. Can someone help me?

Go to your “Profile” page. For me, that’s a link close to the very top of the page, with a URL that looks something like https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/user/123456789-username/

From there, click on the button labeled “Edit my Profile”. For me, because that link doesn’t have my username or userid in it, I can give you the exact link, which is https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?app=core&module=usercp&tab=core

From there, go to the “Ignore Preferences” tab. For me, that is https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?app=core&module=usercp&tab=core&area=ignoredusers

From there, towards the bottom of the page there is a box that is labeled "Add a new user to my list”. Fill in the appropriate name , then select the checkboxes for what kind of content from them that you want to ignore, like “posts”, “signature”, and/or “messages”.

Then click the “Save Changes” button at the bottom of that page.

Then you’re done.

EDIT: And I hope that I am not the person you’re ignoring, because I like and respect you — a lot. And if I am the person you’re ignoring, well … I still look forward to seeing your posts elsewhere on the forum.

This comment is the essence of everything wrong I am trying to point out. The "standing" I have to make the comment is "I am a fan". As another "fan" you have zero authority to tell any other "fan" what they are required to do before making a "fan-made" product for the community. That is all. No insults, no screaming, no threats, no need for 2 posts to say, this type of thinking is wrong.

Your right to create whatever drivel you want and ignore common courtesy, etiquette, community FAQs and standards, etc… ends the moment you place that drivel into a public place where there is a reasonable expectation that others will be forced, coerced, or otherwise induced to see it.

And if you don’t like being called out for having posted drivel, then maybe it might be a good idea to not post drivel in the first place.

Even in the 2 posts worth, you still agreed with all my points, which is confusing why you think "you solve for all the variables correctly, but I dispute that those variables put into a single sentence is correct”.

You apparently forgot how to handle basic logic, or maybe you never learned how.

As to their "treating the community" rudely. Maybe they wanted to discuss each species separately (which has been done in the past), and in that case it is 100% accurate for them to separate. Though I did point out in a previous post "potentially" the only thing he did wrong was not consolidate, but consolidation could have caused confusion with suggestions.

Not relevant. If you (or someone else) wantonly ignores community standards, then it doesn’t matter why you (or they) might want to choose to try to address some topic in a certain way.

Before you use a public punchbowl as your personal urinal, you would be well advised to first find out the true nature and intended use of said receptacle.

You (or they) wouldn’t be the first to make a significant social faux pas, and you (they) certainly won’t be the last. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t call you (them) out on it.

If being told that you have the same authority as everyone else offends you, I apologize that you are offended by it, but that does not make the statement less true.

Physician, heal thyself.

*plonk*

Not relevant. If you (or someone else) wantonly ignores community standards, then it doesn’t matter why you (or they) might want to choose to try to address some topic in a certain way.

I did not contribute any fan made thing that ignored standards that are arbitrary, I called you out for imposing arbitrary standards on someone else. You are so blind with rage about being called out you don't even seem to notice this.

At the end of the day, this is a community. Says so right at the start of the url, even. A community is nothing more than a group of people sharing resources and information to better their shared experiences.

I would encourage anyone who wants to post homebrew whatevers to do a little research into if anything similar has come before from or through the community and then do whatever they were going to do anyway for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, no one ever complains about an abundance of riches. Secondly, for inspiration. Thirdly, because if you're going to post something in a vacuum without any inside information to a group of people familiar with something similar, the conversation will quickly involve a lexicon and stock of references that will be lost upon you.

Having said that; GMKR, I don't know you outside of this thread; but brad is someone I'm very familiar with having read, lurked, and participated on these boards for a while now. I'm disappointed in you both for letting this carry on so far. Agree to disagree and move on, for the love of Zeltrons.

Edit: spelling.

I've never put someone on ignore so I don't know how. Can someone help me?

Go to your “Profile” page. For me, that’s a link close to the very top of the page, with a URL that looks something like https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/user/123456789-username/From there, click on the button labeled “Edit my Profile”. For me, because that link doesn’t have my username or userid in it, I can give you the exact link, which is https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?app=core&module=usercp&tab=coreFrom there, go to the “Ignore Preferences” tab. For me, that is https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?app=core&module=usercp&tab=core&area=ignoredusersFrom there, towards the bottom of the page there is a box that is labeled "Add a new user to my list”. Fill in the appropriate name , then select the checkboxes for what kind of content from them that you want to ignore, like “posts”, “signature”, and/or “messages”.Then click the “Save Changes” button at the bottom of that page.Then you’re done.EDIT: And I hope that I am not the person you’re ignoring, because I like and respect you — a lot. And if I am the person you’re ignoring, well … I still look forward to seeing your posts elsewhere on the forum.

Those feelings are definitely mutual. If I even thought about saying I was going to ignore you, I'd have to be be playing Opposite Day with SpongeBob and Patrick! I'm not in Bikini Bottom, so...

I didn't even ignore ericb! I wanted to a few times... but not knowing how forced me to be patient and that usually made the feeling go away. I did this time, too.

I'm glad I know how to ignore now, but if I could endure ericb, I can endure anyone.

I've never put someone on ignore so I don't know how. Can someone help me?

Go to your “Profile” page. For me, that’s a link close to the very top of the page, with a URL that looks something like https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/user/123456789-username/From there, click on the button labeled “Edit my Profile”. For me, because that link doesn’t have my username or userid in it, I can give you the exact link, which is https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?app=core&module=usercp&tab=coreFrom there, go to the “Ignore Preferences” tab. For me, that is https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?app=core&module=usercp&tab=core&area=ignoredusersFrom there, towards the bottom of the page there is a box that is labeled "Add a new user to my list”. Fill in the appropriate name , then select the checkboxes for what kind of content from them that you want to ignore, like “posts”, “signature”, and/or “messages”.Then click the “Save Changes” button at the bottom of that page.Then you’re done.EDIT: And I hope that I am not the person you’re ignoring, because I like and respect you — a lot. And if I am the person you’re ignoring, well … I still look forward to seeing your posts elsewhere on the forum.

Those feelings are definitely mutual. If I even thought about saying I was going to ignore you, I'd have to be be playing Opposite Day with SpongeBob and Patrick! I'm not in Bikini Bottom, so...

I didn't even ignore ericb! I wanted to a few times... but not knowing how forced me to be patient and that usually made the feeling go away. I did this time, too.

I'm glad I know how to ignore now, but if I could endure ericb, I can endure anyone.

Very wise, Haley, and calmly done. Best not to get drawn into online dramas.

Funnily enough, ErikB is the only person I've ever ignored here, and not because I disliked him. I decided it was best not to get suckered into a fight of the kind nobody wins.

Arguing on the Internets about pretend stats for a fictional race of sexy pink-purple people is weird, even by my standards of weird...

Arguing on the Internets about pretend stats for a fictional race of sexy pink-purple people is weird, even by my standards of weird...

Nobody was arguing about the stats of the species. One side was stating that in order to type about the pretend species, they had to read other people's take on pretend species, and then comment on that, (because the first commenter's version of the pretend species was somehow more important because the earlier commenter somehow by speaking first, was more important) before having the option to type about that species. The other side (me) stated that was absurd.

Yes, arguing about who came up with pretend sexy pink people stats first is so much better. . . .