So if you didnt read it yet:

On 8.3.2016 at 12:08 PM, Hobojebus said:

ICv2's "Internal Correspondence" #89 is out (the ones that does the "top 5 non-collectible miniatures games" list for US retailers) and the top five list is now:
1. X-Wing
2. 40k
3. Armada
4. Warmachine
5. Attack Wing

here is the link: http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/33912/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-fall-2015

I believe 40k is stil reigning supreme in Europe, but thats not the point here.

However I am very surprised,

that Star Wars Armada with its feeled 1 Wave per year (still) sells so well

AND

that the very, very flawed Star Trek Attack Wing with its feeled 12 waves per year + limited sets + special ships made it back into the top 5.

On another note Star Wars: Imperial Assault dropped from place 3 to place 7.

FALL 2017 update:

Unfortunally Armada (and Attack Wing) dropped from the top 5 in Fall 2017:

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/39858/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-fall-2017

However that could also just be that number 4 and 5 just sold very well and just peaked over Armada, are these games new?

Still Warmachine ( a.k.a. the bad bank of the tabletop community) outsells Armada now.

These are misleading

The primary of GW sales comes from GW direct not distributors where this information is collected from. Distributors get a very limited about of GW prodect to carry and sell where GW has a lot of direct only stuff to maximize their profits.

That being said, it still outselling all the other games if you assume 40k is actually number 1 if you looked at the direct sales.

IA hasn't had a ton of releases to be fair and their waves are generally less than $100 and most people locally here buy one of each thing. I've stopped buying it as interest has waned in it for other stuff.

Also direct sales would show how well Guildball from Steamforged games is doing since only a few distributors carry it at this time.

These are misleading

The primary of GW sales comes from GW direct not distributors where this information is collected from. Distributors get a very limited about of GW prodect to carry and sell where GW has a lot of direct only stuff to maximize their profits.

That being said, it still outselling all the other games if you assume 40k is actually number 1 if you looked at the direct sales.

IA hasn't had a ton of releases to be fair and their waves are generally less than $100 and most people locally here buy one of each thing. I've stopped buying it as interest has waned in it for other stuff.

I don't know if it is "misleading" so much as a good indicator of how miniatures gaming looks ex-GW stores.

Which is to say, the GW ecosystem can be perceived as its own thing; if you aren't a GW player, there isn't any overlap with you and vice-versa, and there are a decent number of "GW only" players, so do they matter to the broader community? Maybe? It depends?

So one has to understand what this list really represents. I would also suspect that historicals are not always feeding through the same distributors, though that space is much more atomized at times.

Either way, the punch line that Armada is going strong is almost certainly correct.

Well done, FFG. Whatever official forum person from FFG reads these threads, please go high five your design and production teams working on Armada enthusiastically.

miss leading may have been harsh. I get a bit perturbed when people use this information to claim their game is the best ever. The OP was not doing this but I just try to spread some awareness.

Historicals are Historicals and miniature games are miniature games. Flames of War is a very popular Historical game (its kinda the gateway to historicals for most) but is never on this list.

the GW does most of its LGS store business via direct is all I am pointing out.

Also don't discount the star wars effect. the games are cheap enough for collectors to buy 1 of each ship and display them. I have a few friends who do this.

I also wouldn't read too much into Imperial Assault as it simply may have been relabeled as a board game which it is

I think it'll pick up more when LGS's start selling the core set at 60 bucks instead of 99.

Lets be real here, that puts off a huge portion of people from the start.

I agree, the core set is probably the biggest hurdle of getting into this game. Even retail of $80 would've been fine. The interest is definitely there as every time I play at a store I'd say 3-5 different people watch our game for at least 10 minutes or so.

No disrespect to FFG, but the 90 dollar entry point wasn't really...well...I don't personally think it was the smartest move.

Sure you could go dutch on a fleet with your friend, but then one of you still needs dice/movement stick/laser stick...and then the rule book. I think it would have sold much more if they offered a rebel only/imperial only box.

To their credit they did make extra dice and dials available quickly.

What I love is the people who say the core set is too expensive. Split it with a friend and week later they have split another core to get the rest of it. spending the same amount of money.

We have had a few people get into it who complained about cost (yet bought new factions for other games) and are now wishing they played from the start because they feel like they have a huge hurdle to overcome to not get tabled by the vets.

I also wouldn't read too much into Imperial Assault as it simply may have been relabeled as a board game which it is

It was, and it was listed as 3rd on the board game list from the same place. After Settlers of Catan and Ticket to Ride. Which is frankly a very nice place to be.

Settlers may be the best board game ever

I have to admit I've never played it. But was tempted to pick it up when I saw the Star Trek version at Target... But my family isn't big into board games so I'm not sure who'd I'd have to actually play it with.

Settlers may be the best board game ever

no. it is not.

Settlers may be the best board game ever

no. it is not.

Sounds like someone couldn't find anyone who wanted to Trade Sheep for Wood.

Also don't discount the star wars effect. the games are cheap enough for collectors to buy 1 of each ship and display them. I have a few friends who do this.

As do I. Not sure there are enough out there that they're actually giving a measurable bump to the numbers, but they are certainly out there and the idea shouldn't be discounted.

Now the price point? I agree it is steep, but then again, you have to keep in mind what a lot of miniature games cost. Zombicide, Ghostbusters, Firefly, Smallworld, Dead of Winter, Warhammer; essentially go to the local Games By James and look at the game wall where Armada is shelved. That $90.00 price tag is suddenly very competitive/reasonable.

I agree you might sell a few more sooner if you lowered it, but I also would argue that the longer people watch, the more they will lean to buying, and eventually get it anyway, at full price.

Or, they can always go online and look there as well. There are discount sites that give you a bit of a break, not to mention there is always the E-bay route, or even local "buyers remorse" second hand purchases.

Myself, I balked for awhile before getting in, due to the price. But as someone here said, you split one, and a payday or two later, you split another.

Also, a small, dim ray of hope. If you look at the FFG Facebook page where they made the announcement for the new IA expansion, a bunch of the coments were "what about Armada" and an official FFG response was "Armada has not been forgotten"

To be honest, I did not appreciate the choice of words. Something more positive like "We have exciting news coming up for Armada" rather than making it sound like a red-headed stepchild that hasn't QUITE been kicked out of the house would have been nice...

Settlers may be the best board game ever

no. it is not.

Fscking hate that game.

Also don't discount the star wars effect. the games are cheap enough for collectors to buy 1 of each ship and display them. I have a few friends who do this.

As do I. Not sure there are enough out there that they're actually giving a measurable bump to the numbers, but they are certainly out there and the idea shouldn't be discounted.

Now the price point? I agree it is steep, but then again, you have to keep in mind what a lot of miniature games cost. Zombicide, Ghostbusters, Firefly, Smallworld, Dead of Winter, Warhammer; essentially go to the local Games By James and look at the game wall where Armada is shelved. That $90.00 price tag is suddenly very competitive/reasonable.

I agree you might sell a few more sooner if you lowered it, but I also would argue that the longer people watch, the more they will lean to buying, and eventually get it anyway, at full price.

Or, they can always go online and look there as well. There are discount sites that give you a bit of a break, not to mention there is always the E-bay route, or even local "buyers remorse" second hand purchases.

Myself, I balked for awhile before getting in, due to the price. But as someone here said, you split one, and a payday or two later, you split another.

I agree that it is competitive especially when factoring in 40k/Warmahordes players. But this is attracting people who don't play miniature war games as well, and those are the ones that mostly balk at it in my experience. Considering that the core set is the hurdle in getting in to the game I personally would argue setting that lower would make their expansions sell faster. The core set I bought online due to the steep pricing, but most of the ship expansions I purchased at FLGS due to the hurdle.

Also, a small, dim ray of hope. If you look at the FFG Facebook page where they made the announcement for the new IA expansion, a bunch of the coments were "what about Armada" and an official FFG response was "Armada has not been forgotten"

To be honest, I did not appreciate the choice of words. Something more positive like "We have exciting news coming up for Armada" rather than making it sound like a red-headed stepchild that hasn't QUITE been kicked out of the house would have been nice...

(snarky humor on) Speaking as a red-headed stepchild, I take offense to this. (snarky humor off)

Seriously though, that is kind of odd wording, isn't it? I am sure they meant it as reassurance, but the inference one is likely to read into it does seem more "Oh my god, will you all just shut up? It's coming, it's coming. Jeeze!" ... Though to be fair, that may be exactly how they're feeling. lol

And on behalf of all the people who don't Facebook (myself and, I think, maybe 2 others? maybe?), thank you for that info, Hastatior. It's good to know they've addressed things, even if only to say they remember one of their product lines still has customers.

Eclipse is the best board game ever!

Catan is far to repetitive (I'll state... for me...here).

Nice to see Armada is doing well, honestly I do not understand why retailers keep the base game priced so high comparatively to online retailer prices, yes they have potentially more overheads, but my local shops have probably had the same stock in, sat there for the better part of a year, surely selling it for £20 less and shifting a few dozen, is better than 1-2 per year.

I agree that it is competitive especially when factoring in 40k/Warmahordes players. But this is attracting people who don't play miniature war games as well, and those are the ones that mostly balk at it in my experience. Considering that the core set is the hurdle in getting in to the game I personally would argue setting that lower would make their expansions sell faster. The core set I bought online due to the steep pricing, but most of the ship expansions I purchased at FLGS due to the hurdle.

A valid point. I am presuming you are talking about people who play primarily Scrabble and such? And no, I don't mean that condescendingly. People who play the types of games I listed, or pretty much any RPG, are already more than used to the greasing up they take getting sourcebooks, players handbooks, modules, etc. Is there even an RPG you can get into for less than $60.00 anymore?

I don't think the target audience (the type of folks who would be going into a Games By James or flgs) is, for the most part, going to suffer sticker shock at that $90.00. Balk, yes. But be stunned and driven off? I don't think so.

And after that, it's the ripple effect. Because the ones interested but hesitant are likely going to play with friends that buy it, or play store copies (I haven't been to lot of flgs, I live in the middle of nowhere, but the flgs has open copies for people to try out before buying). And after a couple of games, decide they're in or they're not interested.

In a way, whether intended or not, the price point discourages an unsure customer from buying something they may not want.

Now, devil's advocate, would I complain to see the prices lowered? Nope. Nope, not a peep of complaint. I'd love to spend less on this hobby.

Here's a thought. As I said somewhere else, Armada is still "first edition." While I haven't looked at it yet, it's my understanding that the new X-Wing set has revised rules. We've seen some (valid, in my opinion) criticism of the Armada rule book in the forums, and with the new movies out, could Armada be following in X-Wing's exhaust trail?

Perhaps what's taking so long is they are polishing up the rules or perhaps even adding new mechanics.

Though I confess it does seem awfully early to think we'd see Armada 2.0.

First of all, I think we all need to agree that Android ¹ is the greatest board game ever if we are all going to be friends here. Otherwise, just pull this thread over and shut it down.

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Eclipse is the best board game ever!

Catan is far to repetitive (I'll state... for me...here).

Nice to see Armada is doing well, honestly I do not understand why retailers keep the base game priced so high comparatively to online retailer prices, yes they have potentially more overheads, but my local shops have probably had the same stock in, sat there for the better part of a year, surely selling it for £20 less and shifting a few dozen, is better than 1-2 per year.

I really want to try eclipse. But cattan appeals to a far wider audience.