In these cases, the ship OL has locked *is not the ship modifying the dice*. OL is. In just the same way he is when he uses Juke despite the fact that it's his target's dice he's changing. OL does not block them because he does not block *himself* from modifying dice.

It doesn't matter which ship owns the relevant upgrade. It doesn't matter which step it takes place in. It doesn't matter which ship's dice are being modified. It matters which ship is doing the modifying. If it's the locked ship, the mod fails. If it's anyone else (Omega Leader, OGP with Palpatine on board, some putative other upgrade) the mod succeeds.

As currently written anyway; this could all change with an FAQ or with errata to those cards, but I doubt it would.

In these cases, the ship OL has locked *is not the ship modifying the dice*. OL is. In just the same way he is when he uses Juke despite the fact that it's his target's dice he's changing. OL does not block them because he does not block *himself* from modifying dice.

It doesn't matter which ship owns the relevant upgrade. It doesn't matter which step it takes place in. It doesn't matter which ship's dice are being modified. It matters which ship is doing the modifying. If it's the locked ship, the mod fails. If it's anyone else (Omega Leader, OGP with Palpatine on board, some putative other upgrade) the mod succeeds.

As currently written anyway; this could all change with an FAQ or with errata to those cards, but I doubt it would.

Wrong. OLs player might be the one picking up the dice, but it is still the opponents ship modifying the dice, and thus his TL blocks their use.

No, it's not. Read the card. Do exactly what it says. No more, no less.

"When attacking, if you have a target lock on the defender, you may spend the target lock to choose any or all defense dice. The defender must reroll the chosen dice." R4 B11 forces OL to reroll his own dice. It's written right there on the card. Attacker chooses, defender rerolls. if it said 'you may reroll', it would be blocked by OL.

Put it this way: by your logic, OL's own Juke would fail, because the dice being modified don't belong to him, they belong to the defender. But Juke works because OL is the one modifying the die, not the defender. Exactly the same logic applies to these cards.

It might not be what was *intended* for these cards, that remains to be seen. I would be entirely unsurprised to see errata for them. But as written, R4B11 works fine.

Clearly there needs to be an FAQ for him though.

No, it's not. Read the card. Do exactly what it says. No more, no less.

"When attacking, if you have a target lock on the defender, you may spend the target lock to choose any or all defense dice. The defender must reroll the chosen dice." R4 B11 forces OL to reroll his own dice. It's written right there on the card. Attacker chooses, defender rerolls. if it said 'you may reroll', it would be blocked by OL.

Put it this way: by your logic, OL's own Juke would fail, because the dice being modified don't belong to him, they belong to the defender. But Juke works because OL is the one modifying the die, not the defender. Exactly the same logic applies to these cards.

It might not be what was *intended* for these cards, that remains to be seen. I would be entirely unsurprised to see errata for them. But as written, R4B11 works fine.

Clearly there needs to be an FAQ for him though.

Please write an example of an attack with OL having a target lock on a ship with one of the astromechs, and point out exactly where they trigger.

You can't if you are right, because there is no timing window for that.

Juke works just fine because it is OL modifying the opponents dice. He is allowed to do that. Only the target locked ship is blocked from modifying dice.

Attacker chooses, defender rerolls

This is 100% true. The attacker modifies the defense dice, the defender graciously by FFG gets to roll them so no one can get into ugly arguments about wierd dice rolling to produce results favorable to the attacker.

The timing window is irrelevant. Who owns the upgrade is irrelevant. When it is happening is irrelevant. What modification is happening is irrelevant.

The only things that matter are:

- which two ships are attacking and defending. If they're not OL and his locked target, his ability doesn't trigger.

- which ship is modifying dice. That is the only thing that OL's ability references in this context. If he's doing the modifying, it works. If anyone other than the locked ship is doing it, it works. If the locked ship is doing it, it fails.

Compare, for instance, Elusiveness, which forces the opponent to reroll. If OL had it, as the defender against someone he locked, it would fail, because he's forcing THEM to reroll.

You've literally just admitted that the conditions which make OL's ability fail, are satisfied by these droids - OL is the ship modifying the dice, not the ship the droids are on. This shouldn't still be a discussion.

The idea that they say this because of the possibility of arguments about who rolls the dice is nonsensical - it makes no difference which player physically picks up and tosses the dice. I very rarely touch my opponent's dice, even when I'm doing something where my ship is changing one of them, and I'll usually chuck my own dice even if his ship is rerolling mine. Purely for practicality, playing on a 4 foot by 4 foot table I often can't reach the other guy's dice.

What matters is which ship, in the rules, is modifying dice.

E: and for the record, I would say R4B11's trigger happens during the 'Defender modifies defence dice' step. You force them to reroll during their modify dice step, because that;s when they modify dice, which you are making them do. I can't see when else it could trigger.

So, if you must... TL-ed Kavil attacks OL who he has also TLed.

Kavil rolls attack dice

OL could modify them if he had any ability to do so.

Kavil could attempt to modify them, but OL's ability blocks it if he tries. He can still spend tokens though, if he derives some other benefit from doing so, it's just that the modification fails (Palp on a third ship could also trigger here and modify the attack dice for Kavil if he was on Kavil's side).

OL rolls defence dice

Kavil could attempt to modify them (e.g. using Juke, if he'd picked up an Evade somehow) but OL's ability blocks it. (Palp could also trigger here.)

OL modifies them. At this point R4-B11 triggers, allowing the ship he's on to take a stress and spend its TL, forcing OL to reroll any dice Kavil chooses. This works, because OL is modifying the dice. OL could at this point reroll any other dice that hadn't been rerolled by R4-B11's effect, and could spend focus tokens or evade tokens, etc etc etc.

Compare results, etc.

What matters is which ship, in the rules, is modifying dice.

On this we completely agree.

Compare, for instance, Elusiveness, which forces the opponent to reroll. If OL had it, as the defender against someone he locked, it would fail, because he's forcing THEM to reroll.

Wrong! It would work because OL would be the ship modifying the dice.

and I'll usually chuck my own dice even if his ship is rerolling mine

So you actually do exactly what I am claiming. You are rolling the dice, but the opponent is the one rerolling them.

If you look through all the upgrades that allow you to modify the opponents dice, you will find that the cards consistently say you change them if you modify it to a specific result, not the enemy. And that every card rerolling the opponents dice state that they roll the dice. the cards never allow you to roll the opponents dice, but they do allow you to change them to specific values.

Lets make an example,. OL has Tl on x.wing with R7. x-wing has TL on Ol as well.

Here is the start of Step 3 Modify attack dice.

The defender can resolve any card abilities that allow him to modify the attack dice. Then the attacker can modify his attack dice in one or more of the following ways as many times as possible:

If I am right R7 does not work because the first sentence allows me to use it at this time, but OL blocks it. Result R7 does not trigger.

If you were right, R7 would not trigger because it is not a card that allow the x-wing to modify the attackers dice. Result R7 does not trigger.

Now lets remove OL's TL:

If I am right R7 does work because the first sentence allows me to use it at this time, and OL does not blocks it. Result R7 does trigger.

If you were right, R7 would not trigger because it is not a card that allow the x-wing to modify the attackers dice. Result R7 does not trigger.

So according to you cards that force the opponent to reroll dice never works because at no point during the attack can they trigger.

I am pretty sure we can all agree that R7 and cards like it do in fact work. And they work because they allow you to modify the opponents dice, by forcing them to reroll the dice.

No. We do not agree at all on that. The cards are absolutely not consistent. Elusiveness, R4-B11, Palpatine and R7 Astromech all work differently from most other modifications in that they force a ship other than themselves to modify its own dice.

As I noted, and as you conveniently chose not to address, the rules don't care which player physically handles the dice. They care which ship does the modifying. That is the rules construct at work. The dice could be rerolled by machine, or by app, or by being dropped from the sky by an eagle for all the difference it makes to which ship is doing the modifying. R7 would be triggered by the defender during the attacker modifies attack dice step.

These droids break the rules as normally set out, because that's how exception based game design works. Same way Palp works. Same way ANY ability works that does something outside the normal sequence of the rules.

But of course, when you wilfully ignore the card text, everything works how you want it. And you're welcome to do that if you want I guess. Whatever.

Or to put it another way:

Do you see any distinction in the rules between the following two pieces of wording displaying how Juke is, versus how it might be rewritten to make it no longer work for OL:

"When attacking, if you have an evade token, you may change one of the defender's evade results to a eye result."

"When attacking, if you have an evade token, choose a defence die with an evade result, the defender must change that die's result to an eye result."

(Also, dang, wouldn't it be good if this forum had custom smilies with the die results on them?)

Palpatine is different as he specifies his own timing,

Elusiveness, R7, and R4-B11 all force rerolls, but this does not make them different from say Juke. They are all card effects used by the ship they are equipped on to modify the opponents dice results.

As I noted, and as you conveniently chose not to address, the rules don't care which player physically handles the dice. They care which ship does the modifying.

Look at my first response in #31

What we are not agreeing on is who is modifying the dice.

R7 would be triggered by the defender during the attacker modifies attack dice step.

Really? The defender can't trigger anything during the so called attacker modifies attack dice. Only the attacker can.

These droids break the rules as normally set out, because that's how exception based game design works. Same way Palp works. Same way ANY ability works that does something outside the normal sequence of the rules.

The droids don't break the rules, they follow the rules laid out in step 3 and 5 of the attack sequence.

Or to put it another way:

Do you see any distinction in the rules between the following two pieces of wording displaying how Juke is, versus how it might be rewritten to make it no longer work for OL:

"When attacking, if you have an evade token, you may change one of the defender's evade results to a eye result."

"When attacking, if you have an evade token, choose a defence die with an evade result, the defender must change that die's result to an eye result."

(Also, dang, wouldn't it be good if this forum had custom smilies with the die results on them?)

No both are affects triggered by the defender, so there is no difference. The one doing the modification is the player/ship owning the game effect (card or pilot ability).

And yes, custom emojis for dice results would be nice

As I noted, and as you conveniently chose not to address, the rules don't care which player physically handles the dice. They care which ship does the modifying. That is the rules construct at work. The dice could be rerolled by machine, or by app, or by being dropped from the sky by an eagle for all the difference it makes to which ship is doing the modifying. R7 would be triggered by the defender during the attacker modifies attack dice step.

StephenEsven has made the same (underlined) point a few times, and not just in this thread.

So my interpretation would be that R7 is an upgrade that belongs to the defender. If that defender has OL locked on him, then R7 and therefore his pilot, cannot modify any dice in that exchange.

R7 says that the attacker modifies the dice. Not the ship that has it on board. It can trigger because it says it can trigger, as an exception to the normal rules, and force the attacker to do something it doesn't want to do. Just as with Palpatine vs Howlrunner, it matters which ship does the modifying, not which ship equips the card/has the ability which allows the modification. It matters which ship modifies the dice. Round and round and round it goes. You do exactly what the card says, and the card says that the attacker modifies the dice, so it does. His pilot modifies no dice when his ability activates. If he did, it would be phrased thusly:

"Once per round when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker, you may spend the target lock to reroll any or all of the attack dice."

This differs from what it actually says, which is

"Once per round when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker, you may spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The attacker must reroll the chosen dice."

Same exact wording change as my example in Juke, above, and these two wordings have basically identical effects, in any other case in the game *except* when Omega Leader (or Dark Curse, for that matter) is defending. I genuinely don't understand how you can read the card the way you are; you're reading something into it which absolutely IS NOT written on it.

Why don't we all just agree to wait for an FAQ?

(E: maybe we should all agree that is [boom], is [kaboom], is [eye] and is [evade])

I genuinely don't understand how you can read the card the way you are; you're reading something into it which absolutely IS NOT written on it.

I could say the exact same thing to you,

You do exactly what the card says, and the card says that the attacker modifies the dice, so it does.

No the card says

you may spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The attacker must reroll the chosen dice.

Nowhere in that quote does it say that that the attacker modifies the dice. It says you pick the dice you want to modify, and the attacker must then reroll the chosen dice. You can not deny that you as the defender owns the card, and thus the game effect.

Lets use one of your fun examples above. Lets assume the game was only ever played with a dice app, and the cards were worded to reflect this.

The card teaxt would then read.

"Once per round when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker, you may spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The dice app must reroll the chosen dice."

Now who is doing the modification?

That would be a nonsensical statement, the dice app is not part of the rules of the game. You might as well say 'the fnargleblarg rerolls the dice' for all the sense it makes in terms of the game rules. In the case of a player using a dice app, or a fnargleblarg, the attacker would still be the one rerolling. How the random numbers are being generated is immaterial. It coudl be an app, it could be vassal, it could be physical dice, it could be frigging Star Wars sheep entrails; it doesn't matter.

The attacker is a defined entity within the game rules; it is the ship which is attacking. It is neither player, it is the ship.

In the case of my OL attacking your Corran, the attacker is OL, the defender is Corran. The attacker isn't one player or the other, it's one *ship* or the other. So when R7 says 'the attacker rerolls the dice', OL is the rules element that does that. OL modifies the dice. It does not matter that the defender triggered it to happen, it matters that OL was forced to make the modification himself. If he'd CHOSEN to do it himself (e.g. with Predator, or Lone Wolf) , it would work, for exactly the same reason.

you may spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The attacker must reroll the chosen dice.

Nowhere in that quote does it say that that the attacker modifies the dice. It says you pick the dice you want to modify, and the attacker must then reroll the chosen dice. You can not deny that you as the defender owns the card, and thus the game effect.

>.< You literally bolded exactly the bit which says the attacker modifies the dice, yourself. Rerolling dice is one of the three types of modification. "The attacker must reroll the chosen dice" is for the purposes of this argument the same thing as saying "the attacker modifies the chosen dice".

you may spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The attacker must reroll the chosen dice.

Nowhere in that quote does it say that that the attacker modifies the dice. It says you pick the dice you want to modify, and the attacker must then reroll the chosen dice. You can not deny that you as the defender owns the card, and thus the game effect.

>.< You literally bolded exactly the bit which says the attacker modifies the dice, yourself. Rerolling dice is one of the three types of modification. "The attacker must reroll the chosen dice" is for the purposes of this argument the same thing as saying "the attacker modifies the chosen dice".

You're nitpicking the wording way too much and ignoring the fact that the modification is caused by the locked ship, it doesn't matter that the locked ship isnt the one doing the physical rolling of dice - the modification comes from the locked ship's ability/upgrade card and thus does not work.

End of story.

else you have to wait on a FAQ or respect the TOs decision which should quite clearly be that the locked's ship R7 or R4-B11 or whatever else, won't work when locked by OL.

Ok, so what about if the locked ship tried to use Howlrunner's reroll? By your logic that should work, because it doesn't 'belong to the locked ship'. But it doesn't work, because the locked ship is trying to modify a die. If, however, Howlrunner said 'when another ship in range 1 attacks, you may reroll one of their dice' it would work fine.

But modifications 'belonging to the locked ship' is not a thing in the rules of the game. They're either done by the attacker, by the defender, or (in the case of Palpatine on a third party ship only at this stage I believe, by a third party). The only thing that OL's ability cares about is which ship does the modifying. The source of the modification doesn't matter. Please point out where on OL's card or in the RR it actually says what you're suggesting. Quote it.

Wording nitpicks like this are how the game is balanced.

If I was at a tournament and the TO made the ruling you suggest after hearing both sides, I would accede. TO's word is final. No question about that.

(And FWIW, I play Omega Leader a lot. If these droids actually saw much use, which they don't, I'd far prefer if they worked the way you suggest, it's much better for him. As it is it's mostly an irrelevant discussion anyway since I can't remember the last time I actually saw anyone use any of the cards we're talking about except Palpatine, and we do have a dev ruling on that one. List Juggler reckons that between them R7, R4B11 and Elusiveness have been used around 200 time, compared with Push the Limit about 3500 times by itself. Hopefully it won't come up.)

Good lord they need to FAQ this wave.

For extra enlightenment, consider the following:

If Omega Leader has a target lock on Ibtisam, she may use Elusiveness to nerf his damage, but ​not Sensor Jammer.

The former is forcing the attacker to change a result.
The latter is the defender changing one of the attacker's results.

​The astromechs in question are worded like Elusiveness, and so work as intended vs OL.

AS has been pointed out many times by both thespaceinvader and me, all that matters is who is modifying the dice. Both Elusiveness and Sensor Jammer are game effects used by the defender to modify the attackers dice.

AS has been pointed out many times by both thespaceinvader and me, all that matters is who is modifying the dice. Both Elusiveness and Sensor Jammer are game effects used by the defender to modify the attackers dice.

Please do not imply I agree with you when I do not.

(edit) Nevermind, it seems spaceinvader's premise is that it's not the upgrade and therefore its ship that modifies the dice, but the "target" of the effect who modifies the dice. I'd have to disagree to that point; the fact is it's the upgrade/pilot's effect that's forcing the effect in the first place. I still agree with Stephen's interpretation.

AS has been pointed out many times by both thespaceinvader and me, all that matters is who is modifying the dice. Both Elusiveness and Sensor Jammer are game effects used by the defender to modify the attackers dice.

Please do not imply I agree with you when I do not.

This is predicated on the fact that it doesn't matter which player picks up the dice and rolls, but the ship the to whom the card effect belongs. This is a point that you both made already. I'm honestly not sure anymore how you two diverge when you share the same premise.

Because we don't share the same premise. As I've repeatedly said in this thread and others, it's irrelevant which ship has the upgrade equipped. The only thing relevant is what the upgrade says about which ship does the modification.

AS has been pointed out many times by both thespaceinvader and me, all that matters is who is modifying the dice. Both Elusiveness and Sensor Jammer are game effects used by the defender to modify the attackers dice.

Please do not imply I agree with you when I do not.

This is predicated on the fact that it doesn't matter which player picks up the dice and rolls, but the ship the to whom the card effect belongs. This is a point that you both made already. I'm honestly not sure anymore how you two diverge when you share the same premise.

Because we don't share the same premise. As I've repeatedly said in this thread and others, it's irrelevant which ship has the upgrade equipped. The only thing relevant is what the upgrade says about which ship does the modification.

Yeah I just ninja edited that post. In a nutshell, the main difference in your arguments is : "pilot who owns the effect/card is modifying the dice" versus "pilot who is targeted by the effect is modifying the dice." I'd have to go with the first interpretation, but indeed a FAQ would be fantastic.

Pilot who owns the effect/card is modifying the dice:

1. OL and Defender w/ R7 are locked on each other.
   1. Defender cannot use R7 because the Defender owns the card/effect, and OL+TL prevent the Defender from modifying dice.
2. OL + Juke vs locked Defender.
   1. OL can use Juke because he owns the card/effect, therefore he can modify the Defender's dice during the Modify Defense Dice step.

1. OL and Defender w/ R7 are locked on each other.
   1. Defender can use R7 because OL is the target of the effect and therefore modifying his own Attack dice.
2. OL + Juke vs locked Defender.
   1. OL can't use Juke because the Defender is the target of the effect and cannot modify his Defense dice when OL is locked.
   2. Or is it. OL CAN use Juke because the card stipulates "you" (OL in this case) are changing the result of the Defense dice?

Is this the correct interpretation of your stances?

OL absolutely can use Juke, because Juke says 'you modify the dice' - you refers to OL, because the card is equipped to him.

As noted earlier, consider the difference following two wordings:

"When attacking, if you have an evade token, you may change 1 of the defender's evade results into an eye result." - what Juke actually says. Works fine if OL has it equipped and uses it on a locked target, because OL (as the attacker) is the one who it permits to modify the dice from the perspective of the rules.

"When attacking, if you have an evade token, the defender must change one of their evade results into an eye result." - how Juke could be written such that it would fail if OL had it equipped, and tried to use it on a locked target, because despite OL having it equipped, and causing the effect, it would be the defender (i.e. the ship he is attacking) actually modifying the dice from the perspective of the rules.

The difference really isn't difficult to grasp. From a rules perspective they would normally work identically, except in the specific case of OL having the target locked and trying to use them.

I honestly don't know how I can explain it more clearly.

Relax, I anticipated that interpretation too in the 2nd bullet point.

OL absolutely can use Juke, because Juke says 'you modify the dice' - you refers to OL, because the card is equipped to him.

As noted earlier, consider the difference following two wordings:

"When attacking, if you have an evade token, you may change 1 of the defender's evade results into an eye result." - what Juke actually says. Works fine if OL has it equipped and uses it on a locked target, because OL (as the attacker) is the one who it permits to modify the dice from the perspective of the rules.

"When attacking, if you have an evade token, the defender must change one of their evade results into an eye result." - how Juke could be written such that it would fail if OL had it equipped, and tried to use it on a locked target, because despite OL having it equipped, and causing the effect, it would be the defender (i.e. the ship he is attacking) actually modifying the dice from the perspective of the rules.

The difference really isn't difficult to grasp. From a rules perspective they would normally work identically, except in the specific case of OL having the target locked and trying to use them.

In both of our interpretations of OL, Juke works for OL but for different reasons. If I'm following your logic correctly, in order for R7 to not work against OL, it would have to be worded:

Once per round when defending, if you have a target lock on the attacker, you may spend the target lock to choose any or all attack dice. The defender must reroll the chosen dice.

Obviously, it were worded this way, it wouldn't work with your interpretation of R7 vs. OL, because the defender is not allowed to modify any dice. In our interpretation, it wouldn't work either since the card/effect belong to a pilot who is locked by OL.

I see merit in both and fired off an email to FFG earlier this morning.

It seems like the argument is more of how OL works rather than how R7/R4-b11 works. I always assumed that OL simply makes it so the locked ship couldn't touch dice, but can do things like spending tokens and such. Seems like spaceinvader is saying the same thing. The other option I'm kinda gettin from Spartan is that OL effectively makes the locked ship skip any sort of modification step entirely, such that any abilities that would cause dice to modify would not happen either. Is that an incorrect interpretation of what the conversation is?

I always assumed that OL simply makes it so the locked ship couldn't touch dice, but can do things like spending tokens and such.

Nope. Using tokens (such as evades) is considered a dice modification and there negated by OL's ability. If you're attacking/attacked by OL and he's got you locked on, you're entirely dependent on the dice roll that comes out of your hand. You have no option of changing it after that.

Where R7 or R4-B11, factor in, I'm not sure. I can see the argument for both sides. Hopefully a FAQ will answer the question soon.