To be fair the whole dark/light side is stronger/weaker is a bit sketchy. In canon I can only remember Yoda pointing out that the dark side is not stronger. And then pretty much every Sith saying that it is actually stronger. People tend to accept Yoda's version like absolute truth, but we don't see much evidence to support it.

First Yoda himself might believe so, but that doesn't make it true. How could he know really? He doesn't use the dark side. A bunch of important fights in the movies are won because said person uses the dark side (Luke vs Vader or Anakin vs Dooku). Yoda gets his ass handed to him by Sidious, and he has more than 800 years of experience in using the 'superior' light side. Where is this 'light side stronger in the long run' mantra here? How much more long run than this can you possibly have? Yoda when he confronts Dooku says that Dooku has become stronger and that he senses the dark side in him. Seems to imply that the dark side made him stronger. We see plenty evidence of dark side making people stronger fast but where is the evidence of making people weaker in the long run?

Yoda also could be lying to Luke, just like they did with the Vader situation, so he would be more confident and not be afraid of fighting Vader/Emperor.

How about the fact that in canon they pretty much always end up losing in the end?

We must have watched very different versions of the Yoda vs. Sidious fight, because for most of it Yoda was holding his own, and it ultimately wound up being a case of positioning that ultimately cost Yoda the fight; had Sidious been the one on the edge of a Senate pod and Yoda in the seating area, the fight would have ended with the Dark Lord of the Sith needing to be scrapped off the floor. Heck, during that final Force lightning surge by Palps, you can see the look of terror on his face as Yoda not only manages to block that deluge bare-handed but begins pushing it back at Sidious (who already caught a face-full of his own lightning in his last confrontation with a Jedi Master).

We also see Obi-Wan and Anakin doing pretty darn good for themselves against Count Dooku, who had far more dueling experience than the two of them put together. Anakin by himself does pretty well against Dooku in AotC. We also see Darth Maul, who was effectively a living weapon, get taken down by Obi-Wan in TPM. Over in Rebels, we see Kanan (who never even finished his apprenticship) take down the Grand Inquisitor, who was revealed to have once been a Jedi Knight and Temple Guard who got turned to the dark side. The Inquisitor had the edge early on, but that was due more to Kanan's lack of practical experience in lightsaber dueling than the dark side being inherently stronger; Kanan was able to close the gap in terms of skill, especially once he cast aside his doubts during their final bout, and Kanan was still recovering from having been tortured.

I also don't get why the hell so many people are in such a rush to ascribe sinister motives to everything Obi-Wan and Yoda did in the original films, but yet hold villains like Vader and Palpatine (who lied his ass off and then some in order to fulfill his plan to overthrow the Republic and destroy the Jedi Order) as being saints of honesty.

I think the dark side is weaker overall, but appears stronger since destruction is easier and faster than creation. When you judge whether a wrench or a gun is a stronger tool but the only test you run is how fast can you kill a rabbit, you might get weird results.

I also don't get why the hell so many people are in such a rush to ascribe sinister motives to everything Obi-Wan and Yoda did in the original films, but yet hold villains like Vader and Palpatine (who lied his ass off and then some in order to fulfill his plan to overthrow the Republic and destroy the Jedi Order) as being saints of honesty.

There is a trend in a lot of modern entertainment that "boy scouts" or "heroic paragons" are someone poor character types and that everything has to be grim or edgy in some way and villains are automatically more interesting and certain fans try and "apologize" for their actions with some elaborate explanation of "what made them do evil". Which I find to be a load of crap, but to each their own.

We must have watched very different versions of the Yoda vs. Sidious fight, because for most of it Yoda was holding his own, and it ultimately wound up being a case of positioning that ultimately cost Yoda the fight; had Sidious been the one on the edge of a Senate pod and Yoda in the seating area, the fight would have ended with the Dark Lord of the Sith needing to be scrapped off the floor. Heck, during that final Force lightning surge by Palps, you can see the look of terror on his face as Yoda not only manages to block that deluge bare-handed but begins pushing it back at Sidious (who already caught a face-full of his own lightning in his last confrontation with a Jedi Master).

Exactly, my point is that he should have won easy if Yoda was indeed stronger, remember Yoda was the attacker here and he has more experience on his side.

We also see Obi-Wan and Anakin doing pretty darn good for themselves against Count Dooku, who had far more dueling experience than the two of them put together. Anakin by himself does pretty well against Dooku in AotC. We also see Darth Maul, who was effectively a living weapon, get taken down by Obi-Wan in TPM. Over in Rebels, we see Kanan (who never even finished his apprenticship) take down the Grand Inquisitor, who was revealed to have once been a Jedi Knight and Temple Guard who got turned to the dark side. The Inquisitor had the edge early on, but that was due more to Kanan's lack of practical experience in lightsaber dueling than the dark side being inherently stronger; Kanan was able to close the gap in terms of skill, especially once he cast aside his doubts during their final bout, and Kanan was still recovering from having been tortured.

I think they lost pretty bad, but yeah, Dooku is suposed to be much stronger at that point. Well Maul killed Qui gon first and hold them both at the same time. I think the anger from his death actually helped him win vs Maul (BTW I think the final attack when he is inside the pit is a bit cheesy, isn't it stablished that the high ground always wins? XDD). I haven't watched Rebels so I can't comment on that.

I also don't get why the hell so many people are in such a rush to ascribe sinister motives to everything Obi-Wan and Yoda did in the original films, but yet hold villains like Vader and Palpatine (who lied his ass off and then some in order to fulfill his plan to overthrow the Republic and destroy the Jedi Order) as being saints of honesty.

I agree, I don't think Yoda was lying, but it could be a possibility.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, just trying to point out that it's not clear cut at least in the raw power deparment. I would argue that what makes the Sith lose in the end, are the poor choices that their morals and mindset makes them take. Like for example Anakin's high ground scene (how hard could have been jumping at the same level than Obi Wan but like 10 m to the side or just ignore him, it was Obi Wan that came to kill him XDD) or the Emperor misjudging the power of the love Vader had for his son.

I also don't get why the hell so many people are in such a rush to ascribe sinister motives to everything Obi-Wan and Yoda did in the original films, but yet hold villains like Vader and Palpatine (who lied his ass off and then some in order to fulfill his plan to overthrow the Republic and destroy the Jedi Order) as being saints of honesty.

There is a trend in a lot of modern entertainment that "boy scouts" or "heroic paragons" are someone poor character types and that everything has to be grim or edgy in some way and villains are automatically more interesting and certain fans try and "apologize" for their actions with some elaborate explanation of "what made them do evil". Which I find to be a load of crap, but to each their own.

I thought that mindset got left behind back in the 90's along with the comic book "heroes" that preferred leather outfits, bulging weapon belts, and excessive firepower.

It'll come back around. It always cycles.

Another data point here!

My players spend DP like candy on things like, finding whisky, entertaining strangers, and countering my expenditures when making negotiation checks with a black sun lieutenant who beat the face to a pulp with his bare hands when my PC rolled a double despair!

Strain is easier to regain, as has been said before, and also an extra wounds value goes up exponentially the more soak you have.

I think you're trying to fix a mechanical problem that is basically not there, and is thematically much more engaging!

Sorry to gang up on you, OP, but you don't seem to be taking the criticism well (claiming all your opponents are a circle jerk, lol)!

It'll come back around. It always cycles.

Sad, but true I suppose.

Part of the seductive side of the dark side is also thematic as well as mechanical.

With the dark side you can drain another's life force and wound them lashing lightening.

You can dominate minds and strangle the life out of someone access to that power should be just as tempting as using the dark side in general.

Part of the seductive side of the dark side is also thematic as well as mechanical.

With the dark side you can drain another's life force and wound them lashing lightening.

You can dominate minds and strangle the life out of someone access to that power should be just as tempting as using the dark side in general.

In WotC's Saga Edition this was generally true, as the dark side powers (especially Force lightning given a successful use was all but assured to push most targets three steps down the condition track, which in that system was a BIG deal) were pound for pound some of the nastier/potent powers in the game.

With this system, a notable part of the benefit of being a dark sider is indeed that you no longer after to spend strain or flip Destiny Points to trigger those effects.

To be fair the whole dark/light side is stronger/weaker is a bit sketchy. In canon I can only remember Yoda pointing out that the dark side is not stronger. And then pretty much every Sith saying that it is actually stronger. People tend to accept Yoda's version like absolute truth, but we don't see much evidence to support it.

First Yoda himself might believe so, but that doesn't make it true. How could he know really? He doesn't use the dark side. A bunch of important fights in the movies are won because said person uses the dark side (Luke vs Vader or Anakin vs Dooku). Yoda gets his ass handed to him by Sidious, and he has more than 800 years of experience in using the 'superior' light side. Where is this 'light side stronger in the long run' mantra here? How much more long run than this can you possibly have? Yoda when he confronts Dooku says that Dooku has become stronger and that he senses the dark side in him. Seems to imply that the dark side made him stronger. We see plenty evidence of dark side making people stronger fast but where is the evidence of making people weaker in the long run?

Yoda also could be lying to Luke, just like they did with the Vader situation, so he would be more confident and not be afraid of fighting Vader/Emperor.

How about the fact that in canon they pretty much always end up losing in the end?

Because that's a storytelling convention and not an actual indicator of their relative strengths. David doesn't win against Goliath because he's stronger; he wins because God says so.

To be fair the whole dark/light side is stronger/weaker is a bit sketchy. In canon I can only remember Yoda pointing out that the dark side is not stronger. And then pretty much every Sith saying that it is actually stronger. People tend to accept Yoda's version like absolute truth, but we don't see much evidence to support it.

First Yoda himself might believe so, but that doesn't make it true. How could he know really? He doesn't use the dark side. A bunch of important fights in the movies are won because said person uses the dark side (Luke vs Vader or Anakin vs Dooku). Yoda gets his ass handed to him by Sidious, and he has more than 800 years of experience in using the 'superior' light side. Where is this 'light side stronger in the long run' mantra here? How much more long run than this can you possibly have? Yoda when he confronts Dooku says that Dooku has become stronger and that he senses the dark side in him. Seems to imply that the dark side made him stronger. We see plenty evidence of dark side making people stronger fast but where is the evidence of making people weaker in the long run?

Yoda also could be lying to Luke, just like they did with the Vader situation, so he would be more confident and not be afraid of fighting Vader/Emperor.

How about the fact that in canon they pretty much always end up losing in the end?

Because that's a storytelling convention and not an actual indicator of their relative strengths. David doesn't win against Goliath because he's stronger; he wins because God says so.

That's a bad story to prove your point with. The story of David and Goliath is a story about placing your faith in God and trusting that God will deliver you in the end. Thus the power of faith is more powerful than any mortal power. In pure terms of good vs evil, if we were to map this story onto the Star Wars universe, the story of David and Goliath would be the story of the Light side vs the Dark side. In this story the light sider David enters battle with only his faith to protect him, thus only the light side. Goliath the giant (and an extremely fearsome foe) is wreathed in the power of the dark side. In the end though all that power, in this case all of Goliath'd advantages such as size, strength, hell better training in fighting, is nothing compared to Davids faith that God will see him through this.

Ultimately the story of David and Goliath proves that the light side is stronger because in the end you didn't need massive battle experience, more training, armor, or even a powerful weapon. You didn't need actual power. You just needed your faith .... or in the case of Star Wars .... the Light Side.

(Full Disclaimer: I study religion and one of the pastors I regularly engage in Biblical discussions with is a 100% full on Star Wars nerd)

To be fair the whole dark/light side is stronger/weaker is a bit sketchy. In canon I can only remember Yoda pointing out that the dark side is not stronger. And then pretty much every Sith saying that it is actually stronger. People tend to accept Yoda's version like absolute truth, but we don't see much evidence to support it.

First Yoda himself might believe so, but that doesn't make it true. How could he know really? He doesn't use the dark side. A bunch of important fights in the movies are won because said person uses the dark side (Luke vs Vader or Anakin vs Dooku). Yoda gets his ass handed to him by Sidious, and he has more than 800 years of experience in using the 'superior' light side. Where is this 'light side stronger in the long run' mantra here? How much more long run than this can you possibly have? Yoda when he confronts Dooku says that Dooku has become stronger and that he senses the dark side in him. Seems to imply that the dark side made him stronger. We see plenty evidence of dark side making people stronger fast but where is the evidence of making people weaker in the long run?

Yoda also could be lying to Luke, just like they did with the Vader situation, so he would be more confident and not be afraid of fighting Vader/Emperor.

How about the fact that in canon they pretty much always end up losing in the end?

Because that's a storytelling convention and not an actual indicator of their relative strengths. David doesn't win against Goliath because he's stronger; he wins because God says so.

That's a bad story to prove your point with. The story of David and Goliath is a story about placing your faith in God and trusting that God will deliver you in the end. Thus the power of faith is more powerful than any mortal power. In pure terms of good vs evil, if we were to map this story onto the Star Wars universe, the story of David and Goliath would be the story of the Light side vs the Dark side. In this story the light sider David enters battle with only his faith to protect him, thus only the light side. Goliath the giant (and an extremely fearsome foe) is wreathed in the power of the dark side. In the end though all that power, in this case all of Goliath'd advantages such as size, strength, hell better training in fighting, is nothing compared to Davids faith that God will see him through this.

Ultimately the story of David and Goliath proves that the light side is stronger because in the end you didn't need massive battle experience, more training, armor, or even a powerful weapon. You didn't need actual power. You just needed your faith .... or in the case of Star Wars .... the Light Side.

(Full Disclaimer: I study religion and one of the pastors I regularly engage in Biblical discussions with is a 100% full on Star Wars nerd)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

To be fair the whole dark/light side is stronger/weaker is a bit sketchy. In canon I can only remember Yoda pointing out that the dark side is not stronger. And then pretty much every Sith saying that it is actually stronger. People tend to accept Yoda's version like absolute truth, but we don't see much evidence to support it.

First Yoda himself might believe so, but that doesn't make it true. How could he know really? He doesn't use the dark side. A bunch of important fights in the movies are won because said person uses the dark side (Luke vs Vader or Anakin vs Dooku). Yoda gets his ass handed to him by Sidious, and he has more than 800 years of experience in using the 'superior' light side. Where is this 'light side stronger in the long run' mantra here? How much more long run than this can you possibly have? Yoda when he confronts Dooku says that Dooku has become stronger and that he senses the dark side in him. Seems to imply that the dark side made him stronger. We see plenty evidence of dark side making people stronger fast but where is the evidence of making people weaker in the long run?

Yoda also could be lying to Luke, just like they did with the Vader situation, so he would be more confident and not be afraid of fighting Vader/Emperor.

How about the fact that in canon they pretty much always end up losing in the end?

Because that's a storytelling convention and not an actual indicator of their relative strengths. David doesn't win against Goliath because he's stronger; he wins because God says so.

That's a bad story to prove your point with. The story of David and Goliath is a story about placing your faith in God and trusting that God will deliver you in the end. Thus the power of faith is more powerful than any mortal power. In pure terms of good vs evil, if we were to map this story onto the Star Wars universe, the story of David and Goliath would be the story of the Light side vs the Dark side. In this story the light sider David enters battle with only his faith to protect him, thus only the light side. Goliath the giant (and an extremely fearsome foe) is wreathed in the power of the dark side. In the end though all that power, in this case all of Goliath'd advantages such as size, strength, hell better training in fighting, is nothing compared to Davids faith that God will see him through this.

Ultimately the story of David and Goliath proves that the light side is stronger because in the end you didn't need massive battle experience, more training, armor, or even a powerful weapon. You didn't need actual power. You just needed your faith .... or in the case of Star Wars .... the Light Side.

(Full Disclaimer: I study religion and one of the pastors I regularly engage in Biblical discussions with is a 100% full on Star Wars nerd)

You're both right on the views presented. StarkJunior just presented an abbreviated version of it. Keep in mind that the Tanakh specifically states that all good and evil come from God. The story of David and Goliath is not only about faith in God, but it is a about putting your own will to be subservient to that of God's to do things in His name.

In terms of the Star Wars, this means that the totality of the Force is that you have the free will to choose to do evil or to good. Yes, you can use evil, but it highlights a character's rebellion against the good side. On the other hand, the Light side is there to do good for the sake of righteousness and walking in the path that is laid before you in accordance to its teachings.

Full disclaimer: I am a minister that adheres to the totality of the Tanakh and B'rit Hadashah while rejecting doctrines that are false or based upon mere tradition.

What a weird turn this thread took. And I haven't even had my morning coffee, yet.

That's a bad story to prove your point with. The story of David and Goliath is a story about placing your faith in God and trusting that God will deliver you in the end. Thus the power of faith is more powerful than any mortal power.

It wasn't the power of faith, it was the power of a ranged weapon. You can win any battle if you can do it from a distance.

That's a bad story to prove your point with. The story of David and Goliath is a story about placing your faith in God and trusting that God will deliver you in the end. Thus the power of faith is more powerful than any mortal power.

It wasn't the power of faith, it was the power of a ranged weapon. You can win any battle if you can do it from a distance.

And a well spent Destiny Point?

That's a bad story to prove your point with. The story of David and Goliath is a story about placing your faith in God and trusting that God will deliver you in the end. Thus the power of faith is more powerful than any mortal power.

It wasn't the power of faith, it was the power of a ranged weapon. You can win any battle if you can do it from a distance.

And a well spent Destiny Point?

Slingshot has vicious five,critical one, David rolls like, two triumphs and three adv. High rolls on that critical roll and bam, he's down.

To be fair the whole dark/light side is stronger/weaker is a bit sketchy. In canon I can only remember Yoda pointing out that the dark side is not stronger. And then pretty much every Sith saying that it is actually stronger. People tend to accept Yoda's version like absolute truth, but we don't see much evidence to support it.

First Yoda himself might believe so, but that doesn't make it true. How could he know really? He doesn't use the dark side. A bunch of important fights in the movies are won because said person uses the dark side (Luke vs Vader or Anakin vs Dooku). Yoda gets his ass handed to him by Sidious, and he has more than 800 years of experience in using the 'superior' light side. Where is this 'light side stronger in the long run' mantra here? How much more long run than this can you possibly have? Yoda when he confronts Dooku says that Dooku has become stronger and that he senses the dark side in him. Seems to imply that the dark side made him stronger. We see plenty evidence of dark side making people stronger fast but where is the evidence of making people weaker in the long run?

Yoda also could be lying to Luke, just like they did with the Vader situation, so he would be more confident and not be afraid of fighting Vader/Emperor.

How about the fact that in canon they pretty much always end up losing in the end?

Because that's a storytelling convention and not an actual indicator of their relative strengths. David doesn't win against Goliath because he's stronger; he wins because God says so.

That's a bad story to prove your point with. The story of David and Goliath is a story about placing your faith in God and trusting that God will deliver you in the end.

Yes, exactly. Despite being stronger than David, Goliath did not win because the being that controls all reality dictated otherwise. In our universe, that's God. In the Star Wars universe, that's George Lucas or whoever is writing the story at the time.

However, that doesn't mean that good is always stronger. In fact, the good guys are usually a weak underdog so that people can feel comfortable footing for them. It just means that the bad guys lose because that's how these stories always go.

The Dark Side is not stronger than the Light, but it is not weaker either. It is simply the more seductive or the two.

To be fair the whole dark/light side is stronger/weaker is a bit sketchy. In canon I can only remember Yoda pointing out that the dark side is not stronger. And then pretty much every Sith saying that it is actually stronger. People tend to accept Yoda's version like absolute truth, but we don't see much evidence to support it.

First Yoda himself might believe so, but that doesn't make it true. How could he know really? He doesn't use the dark side. A bunch of important fights in the movies are won because said person uses the dark side (Luke vs Vader or Anakin vs Dooku). Yoda gets his ass handed to him by Sidious, and he has more than 800 years of experience in using the 'superior' light side. Where is this 'light side stronger in the long run' mantra here? How much more long run than this can you possibly have? Yoda when he confronts Dooku says that Dooku has become stronger and that he senses the dark side in him. Seems to imply that the dark side made him stronger. We see plenty evidence of dark side making people stronger fast but where is the evidence of making people weaker in the long run?

Yoda also could be lying to Luke, just like they did with the Vader situation, so he would be more confident and not be afraid of fighting Vader/Emperor.

How about the fact that in canon they pretty much always end up losing in the end?

Because that's a storytelling convention and not an actual indicator of their relative strengths. David doesn't win against Goliath because he's stronger; he wins because God says so.

That's a bad story to prove your point with. The story of David and Goliath is a story about placing your faith in God and trusting that God will deliver you in the end.

Yes, exactly. Despite being stronger than David, Goliath did not win because the being that controls all reality dictated otherwise. In our universe, that's God. In the Star Wars universe, that's George Lucas or whoever is writing the story at the time.

However, that doesn't mean that good is always stronger. In fact, the good guys are usually a weak underdog so that people can feel comfortable footing for them. It just means that the bad guys lose because that's how these stories always go.

The Dark Side is not stronger than the Light, but it is not weaker either. It is simply the more seductive or the two.

No, in the analogy God = the Force. And remember, it's usually when the good guys embrace the Light that they end up winning. The final lightsaber duel in TFA is a perfect example - and before it's said, Ren, despite being injured, was winning until Rey embraced the Light.

Technically speaking, there is no light side. Just the force and the darkside, which is the force perverted by evil will. The light side has never been referred to as such, because it is the force containing all energies of life. That simplification always really annoyed me.

Technically speaking, there is no light side. Just the force and the darkside, which is the force perverted by evil will. The light side has never been referred to as such, because it is the force containing all energies of life. That simplification always really annoyed me.

Unfortunately, that's no longer the case, as TFA has made pretty specific references to "the light" in contrast to "the dark side."

Now it could be that what's being referred to as "the light" is really just the Force in its normal/natural balanced state, but until there's some clarification down the line, as things stand within canon there is a "light side" of the Force.

Technically speaking, there is no light side. Just the force and the darkside, which is the force perverted by evil will. The light side has never been referred to as such, because it is the force containing all energies of life. That simplification always really annoyed me.

Unfortunately, that's no longer the case, as TFA has made pretty specific references to "the light" in contrast to "the dark side."

Now it could be that what's being referred to as "the light" is really just the Force in its normal/natural balanced state, but until there's some clarification down the line, as things stand within canon there is a "light side" of the Force.

Oh bugger, that sucks.

I guess my only hope is that the only people who refer to it in that context either can't touch the force, have no training as Jedi, or are comparing it to the dark side in which case it does look pretty light. Luke himself, the only Jedi, might think differently.

Just, and I don't usually agree with everything he says, Luca's comparison to the Darkside being a cancer is pretty adapt. The dark side doesn't exist in nature but rather it's manufactured and twisted into being by corrupted sentient beings that break it into servitude. Balance is the dark side's complete absence just unfortunately like the real thing it's ripples are pretty hard to eradicate.

Sadly, both Leia, Snoke, and Kylo Ren refer to it as "the light." Leia's confirmed as Force-sensitive (if not trained), Kylo Ren is definitely trained, and Snoke is up in the air.

Not 100% certain, but I think Maz uses that term well, regarding the ongoing war between the light and the dark sides of the Force, and I believe she has been confirmed as a Force user; thus her line "I am no Jedi, but I know the Force" to Rey after she finds Anakin's old lightsaber.