I have now compiled a guide to plot decks on BGG.

I wish I could have done it here instead, but the Geek List format on BGG clearly overshadows the forum possibilities here on FFG, so it was not that hard to decide which one to opt for. Being able to comment on each individual item on the list is really useful. Adding new items to the list is also very easy instead of having to reserve posts for future content and editing all over again.

I stated the background and context of the list in the header information for your information, so I won't reiterate it here, but you are very welcome to make comments on this thread if it suits you.

Link: https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/205588/guide-descent-2ed-plot-decks

Very well done. Going to put a link for this in the Index of Useful Links !

How dare you! Skulduggery was one of the better decks I played with so far

How dare you! Skulduggery was one of the better decks I played with so far

Touché

I wanted to give this deck the review it deserved, lol. Anyway, besides playing the deck "for fun" (I don't think much fun is to be found there but anyway), playing it to solely counteract Treasure chest is just a bad reason in my mind. Give the TH his treasure chest and pick a cool deck instead. More fun for everybody otherwise it's like Magic where you side in your countermeasures, but the game is not exactly enriched by it..

I dunno, when I did a playthrough with Dragon's Greed, it was quite powerful. Giving Huge Monsters Health and attack bonuses while making them immune to Pierce makes them serious time eaters. Sure you can pick Golems, but if you don't want to?

How dare you! Skulduggery was one of the better decks I played with so far

Touché

I wanted to give this deck the review it deserved, lol. Anyway, besides playing the deck "for fun" (I don't think much fun is to be found there but anyway), playing it to solely counteract Treasure chest is just a bad reason in my mind. Give the TH his treasure chest and pick a cool deck instead. More fun for everybody otherwise it's like Magic where you side in your countermeasures, but the game is not exactly enriched by it..

Still I (and the group) enjoyed it much more than Merick's plot deck for example

Obviously I´m expecting a lot of similar reactions, which is why I also strongly advise to read the introduction on top of the list, for the readers to understand my reasons behind the ratings.

Now this is the thing: I cannot possibly know about your particular skill level or playgroup level, nor do I know about your own playstyle, the choices you usually make when playing the game, and so on. Your ratings could be different than mine based on your own playstyle, taste, and whatnot. So what I´ve done is that I have set the fun factor aside completely (although I do sometimes mention about how fun a card is, but it would never be reflected on the ratings), and I then came back to what choices and strategies usually maximizes the Overlord's choice to win an encounter. It does not mean Dragon's Greed or Skulduggery would perform badly 100% of the time, but what I mean is that they are strictly worse choices than other decks at the time you make that choice. You simply don't know yet if the cards in Dragon's Greed can go off during the campaign. It's a gamble you take, as opposed to other types of decks where you more or less know already that they will perform okay regardless of the situation.

Then I´m not going to give much credit for a card with a suboptimal effect just for the reason that in one situation occuring once every blue moon said card would kill me a hero and net me the quest. You cannot think like this. As the Overlord you cannot afford to invest for the long term, every card has to matter right here right now, and your resources for aqcuiring them are scarce. The same applies to plot decks. Sure, you can invest wildly in cards you´re never going to use, but the threat could be used to trigger the cards that really matter.

I dunno, when I did a playthrough with Dragon's Greed, it was quite powerful. Giving Huge Monsters Health and attack bonuses while making them immune to Pierce makes them serious time eaters. Sure you can pick Golems, but if you don't want to?

Well I gave some rather good/average ratings on many of the cards in this deck, and by definition this deck is one of the best at helping these 2x2 and 3x2 monsters you are using during a quest. But my problem with that deck as a whole (this is important), is that hero gear completely outclasses the small boosts given by these cards, outlining again the benefits for using small monsters instead of two fortresses of a monster. Large monsters do have their uses, I´m absolutely not saying that you should avoid them when picking your open groups, but a boost on a small monster group is by nature more efficient than a boost on only two monsters. It's mathematical. If you´re playing blockade encounter after blockade encounter then you surely will have a use of these Pierce-immune and defense-enhanced monsters, but heroes will also find solutions to your ever-recurring strategy. And if they don't, then they´re probably not that good, or unlucky on the item cards draw. Dragon's Greed gives ultra-localized boosts also so they are less obvious to capitalize on, while other decks like First Legion for instance spread the love to many more figures. Dragon's Greed is also an expensive deck, so that automatically reflects on my review. Giving away re-rolls to the heroes also increases their chances at defeating your supadupa-huge monster. Then if your heroes aren't equipped at the task then sure, no wonder why these cards can be effective for you. But we´re back to how well your hero players handle this deck, which I believe is actually quite easy to shut down completely if picking the right skills/gear, and strategize around mobilty to get the objectives done instead of forcing a kill on a big monster. I´ve also seen master Golems go down in three attacks at beginning of Act II, so putting all your eggs in the same basket might prove unsuccesful.

Many of these decks could work better than advertised on my list. However the crux is that you have to make your choice as for which deck you would want to play BEFORE knowing if all factors making your deck a well-functioning one will show up during the campaign. This is where there is a huges distinction in my rankings, as my highest ranked decks don't care about that at all, they are good regardless of situation, and the good cards in them are universally good, and cost efficient. So sure, Dragon's Greed could potentially perform better than Burning Ambition for a given campaign, but the choice of picking the former would still be worse than the alternative of playing the latter. That's what the list is intended to demonstrate.

Then like I said, I strongly encourage all overlords to test all of these decks for their own appreciation. However if you want to play competitively, then you know when you are making a mistake by taking a low-impact high-risk and high-situational deck.

Still I (and the group) enjoyed it much more than Merick's plot deck for example

I should make a disclaimer about our (beloved) Belgian readers and their crazy tastes in matter of plot decks

I was able to convince a group of heroes to give up on a campaign (not my intention) before the interlude by combining the Alric deck with the Infector class. They just had the worst time killing monsters and were drowning in infection tokens. Things might have turned around in Act 2 where a few shields per attack makes less of a difference- but they never got that far.

This is for sure a great work, but makes me not wanting use/play against plot decks at all, after what I've read.

I think the game is already too much of a complex system, in the sense that there are way too many variables to keep it balanced every time. I just don't want another variable which can WILDLY swing the balance one way or another. Especially, provided the fact that this mechanic was introduced originally to simply justify milking some $.

The same would probably go for rumors - I'd rather play them as mini-campaigns/standalones.

Wow, great work Indalecio! Nice presentation as well.

I'm a huge fan of Basic I as I feel it is a much more reliable deck than II (indispensible cards like Dash and Frenzy), so my rankings would be different than yours.

It is a testament to game balance that Basic I and Basic II both have their admirers. I think it largely comes down to playstyle.

However, that doesn't detract from the good insights and advice. I agree with most of your individual card rankings too, even if the 'overall ranking' would be different for me.

The biggest difference is Bel'thir. I think he has a great deck. You highlighted all the cards that make him so good and rated them high, so I don't get the '2 star' rating. Yes, he has plenty of bad cards, but most of the decks do. Really, my rating is based on how good the good cards are. It doesn't really matter if there are awful cards.. just don't use them.

This would be my personal ranking:

5 Star Tier:

Baron Zachareth

Gargan Mirklace

4 Star Tier:

Tristayne Olliven

Bel'thir

Kyndrithul

Zarihell

Verminous

3 Star Tier:

Ariad

Queen Ariad

Rylan Olliven

Ardus Ix'erebus

2 Star Tier:

Serena

Splig

Skarn

Valyndra

Raythen

Merrick Farrow

Alric Farrow

1 Star Tier:

Lady Eliza Farrow

Bol'goreth

Nice work, very interesting read! I'll have to hide this info from my heroes!

But I have one question, you state: I would also give two tokens to the same person instead of splitting them.

It was my understanding that you have to give the fortune token to the hero with the less token, so how is it possible to give the two token to the same person, except if the other heroes already have a fortune token (and in this case, splitting the token or not wouldn't change anything)?

I was able to convince a group of heroes to give up on a campaign (not my intention) before the interlude by combining the Alric deck with the Infector class. They just had the worst time killing monsters and were drowning in infection tokens. Things might have turned around in Act 2 where a few shields per attack makes less of a difference- but they never got that far.

I had a few of these too in my older days. My players could give up just that easily. Patience is key

This is for sure a great work, but makes me not wanting use/play against plot decks at all, after what I've read.

I think the game is already too much of a complex system, in the sense that there are way too many variables to keep it balanced every time. I just don't want another variable which can WILDLY swing the balance one way or another. Especially, provided the fact that this mechanic was introduced originally to simply justify milking some $.

The same would probably go for rumors - I'd rather play them as mini-campaigns/standalones.

I totally understand you. However it is my opinion that FFG has done a better job at designing plot decks recently. The most recent decks feel more balanced and useable. Great abilities also cost more, but the decision is still yours as for using them or not. Nothing is "broken" as such, but it also comes down to you as for evaluating if ability X is worth price Y. If you keep triggering bad abilities at great cost, then it will help the heroes a great deal because of these fortune tokens.

Concerning balance, purchasing cards does not affect it if you don't plan on using these cards. If the game strongly favors you as the overlord, then you can well choose not to play a card, after all, if you really wanted not to push your edge to a point where your opposition would just give up. However be warned, though, as your heroes might not be as concerned as yourself, they will most certainly buy the cool gear and get these uber skills at some point. Why wouldn't they? Your evolution curve is far from being as good as your heroes, so you are very likely to appreciate the extra help later in your campaign in form of these plot cards. Deliberately choosing not to pick a plot deck is a setback and the decision is also irreversible.

Then I would also say that D2E is already a complicated game even without the plot cards. If you´re playing an already complex game then adding plot cards is probably not going to increase that complexity by a great deal. Thematic-wise a plot deck also gives a face to your Overlord. I mean, it's not like you are your agent or vice-versa, but it gives some theme to the overall threat you represent.

Wow, great work Indalecio! Nice presentation as well.

I'm a huge fan of Basic I as I feel it is a much more reliable deck than II (indispensible cards like Dash and Frenzy), so my rankings would be different than yours.

It is a testament to game balance that Basic I and Basic II both have their admirers. I think it largely comes down to playstyle.

However, that doesn't detract from the good insights and advice. I agree with most of your individual card rankings too, even if the 'overall ranking' would be different for me.

The biggest difference is Bel'thir. I think he has a great deck. You highlighted all the cards that make him so good and rated them high, so I don't get the '2 star' rating. Yes, he has plenty of bad cards, but most of the decks do. Really, my rating is based on how good the good cards are. It doesn't really matter if there are awful cards.. just don't use them.

Thanks mate.

The ratings refer to the deck as a whole, but a deck with very good cards in it will hit a higher rating even if half the cards in the deck are crappy. Mirklace's deck comes to mind, just to give an example. However I take the threat economy aspect into account, and also things like if cards interact with each other and so on. So if you only have two good cards in the deck then you won't go very high on the rankings. I sort of value decks giving you several good effects, giving you some flexibility.

I fully respect that yourself or other players would come up with different ratings at deck level, although I think many would still factor in the fun in their review, which I think is not relevant for this type of analysis. So I´m expecting some big fans of Rylan Olliven to come and dismiss the whole list because their deck landed last on the list

Regarding Belthir in particular, I agree that the fact I value Basic II as strictly better than Basic I affects my rating on this deck. Other factors are the low number of really good cards, and the fact the base card is a bad one. There is also the fact that you depend on card draw a lot to be able to trigger these effects. the vast majority of all plot cards are situational, but with this deck you are very exposed to card disruption and luck in general. We could discuss if Belthir deserves a 2 stars or a 3 stars (nothing is final on that list), I don't have decimals so it could be that I´d give him 2.5 and value him higher than his peers on the 2-stars scale, but what made me opt for this particular rate is the fact all 3-stars seemed superior to him.

Nice work, very interesting read! I'll have to hide this info from my heroes!

But I have one question, you state: I would also give two tokens to the same person instead of splitting them.

It was my understanding that you have to give the fortune token to the hero with the less token, so how is it possible to give the two token to the same person, except if the other heroes already have a fortune token (and in this case, splitting the token or not wouldn't change anything)?

Thanks a lot.

Yes you are correct, I don't know what came to my mind when I wrote this. I meant what I wrote, but I forgot the fact other hero players would also have theirs. Ah well, I will change it, thanks for pointing that out.

I couldn't just let this pass without saying big thanks to you, Indalecio. Sure was a hard work, and help a lot those who are not familiar with plot decks (myself included).

I couldn't just let this pass without saying big thanks to you, Indalecio. Sure was a hard work, and help a lot those who are not familiar with plot decks (myself included).

Thanks man. It is always hard work playing Descent . The writing took some time, but it was fun to do too.

I actually tried to post a Review thread on BGG with the same link to the list. Thinking that the review was the list itself, but needed an anchor to the forum somehow. Well, it got rejected and all they gave me as an explanation was a pie chart, showing 50% poor structure, 20% spam and 40% lack of relevance And yes, that makes 110% total but that's probably normal

Needless to say, I reposted it as a General thread instead. I was thinking it could give the list some additional traffic and possibly getting some non-FFG posters to come and comment.

I totally understand you. However it is my opinion that FFG has done a better job at designing plot decks recently. The most recent decks feel more balanced and useable. Great abilities also cost more, but the decision is still yours as for using them or not. Nothing is "broken" as such, but it also comes down to you as for evaluating if ability X is worth price Y. If you keep triggering bad abilities at great cost, then it will help the heroes a great deal because of these fortune tokens.

Concerning balance, purchasing cards does not affect it if you don't plan on using these cards. If the game strongly favors you as the overlord, then you can well choose not to play a card, after all, if you really wanted not to push your edge to a point where your opposition would just give up. However be warned, though, as your heroes might not be as concerned as yourself, they will most certainly buy the cool gear and get these uber skills at some point. Why wouldn't they? Your evolution curve is far from being as good as your heroes, so you are very likely to appreciate the extra help later in your campaign in form of these plot cards. Deliberately choosing not to pick a plot deck is a setback and the decision is also irreversible.

Then I would also say that D2E is already a complicated game even without the plot cards. If you´re playing an already complex game then adding plot cards is probably not going to increase that complexity by a great deal. Thematic-wise a plot deck also gives a face to your Overlord. I mean, it's not like you are your agent or vice-versa, but it gives some theme to the overall threat you represent.

Yeah, I agree with you that at least, using plot decks would not swing the balance in one way, unless he doesn't do some insanely stupid things (e.g., trade XP for Threat and then not use cards). However, as a hero player, I'd probably insist on also putting rumors in, in order to counterbalance the boon for OL (maybe only those from the H&M packs).

I guess this is also specific to our playgroup. We're playing with friends as heroes again st my wife who is an OL. And she plays to win, no, she plays to win. Like, trying to optimize every single monster move and attack and taking eternity to activate a single monster group. And also, unfortunately (I think this might be a national trait) but the story part doesn't get valued a lot in our playgroup, so I have hard times reading aloud lore parts with guys hardly hiding smiles etc. So therefore I don't think that our group would benefit of the thematic component either.

I have changed some if the ratings and shuffled around the deck rankings.

In particular:

- Belthir is a 3 stars deck now instead of 2.

- Alric and Raythen got two stars instead of 1.

- Bol Goreth and Rylan are now at 1 star instead of 2.

- Queen Ariad is a 3 now instead of 4.

- Serena is at 2 instead of 3 now.

I am still considering the idea of dropping Zarihell to 2 stars and Kyndrithul to 4 stars, but I'm not sure yet. I don't value Zarihell' deck as good as some of her 3 stars counterparts, and I must admit Kyndrithul's deck efficiency has not always been at the top.

Our current overlord is not gonna like the fact that his Bol Goreth deck dropped even lower. But since he has barely used any cards from it anyway, I think he knows its pretty bad!

Well, at least your plot deck guide is going to make sure that doesn't happen again in future campaigns!

I would love to see the same for the heroes from you. I've seen some stuff on BGG, but that was in the conversion kit era, and a lot of heroes have changed quite a bit since then.

Same goes for the shop items - seen only base game overview, would love to see expansion items as well.

Yeah, I agree with you that at least, using plot decks would not swing the balance in one way, unless he doesn't do some insanely stupid things (e.g., trade XP for Threat and then not use cards). However, as a hero player, I'd probably insist on also putting rumors in, in order to counterbalance the boon for OL (maybe only those from the H&M packs).

I guess this is also specific to our playgroup. We're playing with friends as heroes again st my wife who is an OL. And she plays to win, no, she plays to win. Like, trying to optimize every single monster move and attack and taking eternity to activate a single monster group. And also, unfortunately (I think this might be a national trait) but the story part doesn't get valued a lot in our playgroup, so I have hard times reading aloud lore parts with guys hardly hiding smiles etc. So therefore I don't think that our group would benefit of the thematic component either.

We used to skip the fluff completely, as FFG hasn't directly made it easy for us non-native English speakers with their choice of word, and to be honest the story is just like any other kind of high fantasy (e.g. nothing new about it). However we recently started to force ourselves to read it systematically and so far we haven't regretted it. It gives an additional element of theme to the quest. No more "who's that guy" or "why are we here". I still don't think it's vital, but if you have somebody around able to read it in a way everybody can understand then it's all good.

I play to win too, but I´m happy to lose as long as did my best

Our current overlord is not gonna like the fact that his Bol Goreth deck dropped even lower. But since he has barely used any cards from it anyway, I think he knows its pretty bad!

Well, at least your plot deck guide is going to make sure that doesn't happen again in future campaigns!

Bol'Goreth is a fantastic figure and I wish his deck was better.

I don't know if players will actually stick to the advices given in that guide, the ratings themselves on each individual card are not highly disputed, but the overall strategy is being discussed, and it turns out people may have radically opposed experience because of differences in playstyle and opposition. Anyway, this is still some kind of a review/adjustment period so I wouldn't consider the guide as being a true 1.0 until I have addressed most comments.

I would love to see the same for the heroes from you. I've seen some stuff on BGG, but that was in the conversion kit era, and a lot of heroes have changed quite a bit since then.

Same goes for the shop items - seen only base game overview, would love to see expansion items as well.

It could all be done, with time and dedication Right now I´ll stick to addressing the comments regarding the plot decks guide until it gets some stability. After that I was thinking about doing a guide to overlord cards. Bear in mind Overlord business is my area of "expertise" so I wanted to focus on these parts out of own interest. But like I said, one project at the time. And it will really depend on the community's reaction to my current guide, if people think it is useful then I´ll think about doing some more. If people on the other hand think the guide is only one man's opinion and does not reflect the community's consensus about the game then it might be pointless.

You did a great job, plase go on )).

Wonderful job, Indalecio. Many thanks.

While my group is heavily weighted to the "playing for fun" end of the spectrum, I absolutely approve of you reviewing the decks from the "playing competively" side. As you mention in your introduction, with no way to know a group's playstyle, it's impossible to evaluate a particular deck's usefulness - but at least by sticking strictly to the mechanics you can do a more objective analysis.

For the cards you consider weak (particularly in view to threat cost) have you considered making any house-rule changes? If so I'd be interested in seeing them.

I like the guide though I have different experience with different decks. For now I have a question about Merrick Farrow card Dark Pact.

First of all there is small mistake in guide in which you say that OL can choose a hero for this card while card says that this choise is made by hero players, which makes this card much worse.

And I wonder about the card effect, I'm not good at English, so I can't really tell what card means. For example if chosen hero has to suffer 6 damage and use this card, would he suffer 2 or 4 damage?

Btw, can OL decide not to use this card at all?

In your example, he would suffer 4 damage. The damage is reduced by 2. You are correct that the heroes choose who gets the pact. Indalecio may want to update that on the guide :-)

I think it's a pretty awful card myself.. And no, you can't choose to not use it. It is a necessary evil of taking Merrick's deck

Wonderful job, Indalecio. Many thanks.

While my group is heavily weighted to the "playing for fun" end of the spectrum, I absolutely approve of you reviewing the decks from the "playing competively" side. As you mention in your introduction, with no way to know a group's playstyle, it's impossible to evaluate a particular deck's usefulness - but at least by sticking strictly to the mechanics you can do a more objective analysis.

For the cards you consider weak (particularly in view to threat cost) have you considered making any house-rule changes? If so I'd be interested in seeing them.

Thanks!

Regarding your question, I personally don't think there is any possibility or room for house ruling the weaker cards without affecting balance. You may be able to pick a few cards and adjust their cost to match their power, but too many cards do nothing or even worsens your position as the overlord. With this being said, I think it's part of the deal to have that kind of variance in the power of these cards. If you made every low-rated cards more efficient (actual worth using) then it would make plot decks a lot better than what they curently are, thus increasing the threat these cards represent to the heroes. I don't think any hero group with sense would accept that.

But basically, "fixing" the cards by adjusting the costs would affect the threat token economy system, and even maybe affect the decision for playing rumor quests. Maybe localized house rules for some of the cards you really insist on using but are unplayable in the current state of things.

I am not really keen normally on introducing house rules especially to fix minor things like these. House rules affect balance in the game and create a special state among the players. I tend to avoid that and embrace the flaws the game has so I can at least play the game as intended. Then sure, I´ve been designing new game modes to other games so it's not like there is no room for inspiration. But let us say plot cards are the lesser of the evil in terms of issues with Descent, I would fix other things first before touching plot decks.

I like the guide though I have different experience with different decks. For now I have a question about Merrick Farrow card Dark Pact.

First of all there is small mistake in guide in which you say that OL can choose a hero for this card while card says that this choise is made by hero players, which makes this card much worse.

And I wonder about the card effect, I'm not good at English, so I can't really tell what card means. For example if chosen hero has to suffer 6 damage and use this card, would he suffer 2 or 4 damage?

Btw, can OL decide not to use this card at all?

You are right about the error in the guide, thanks for pointing that out, I´ll correct it.

And no, the Overlord doesn't get to decide whether to use the card or not. The heroes do.

In your example, he would suffer 4 damage. The damage is reduced by 2. You are correct that the heroes choose who gets the pact. Indalecio may want to update that on the guide :-)

I think it's a pretty awful card myself.. And no, you can't choose to not use it. It is a necessary evil of taking Merrick's deck

I think I was blinded by the mistake saying the OL could decide which hero would be picked. I´ve played the deck three times total and the heroes always got to decide, so I don't know what took me when I wrote this. And yes Merick is a double-edge sword