16 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Unless a 'fix' is tied to "PS of X or lower" you're never going to get generics really be a thing, because once you're spending 30-odd points on a ship, spending a handful of extra points to get the best unique version makes good sense

Yes... if you're only flying 1 E-Wing.

Some of us want to fly 3!

Title E wing Mark 2

Cost -2

You may equip an R7 a stromech, ignoring its points cost.

You may equip Autothrusters, even though you do not have the boost icon.

add in some more R7 Astros.

Both parts are may so the normal Corran build is not taken out, but there are incentives for him to break out of it.

I'm not sure what exactly people expect of an E-Wing fix. Etahn A'baht is fine in epic play, and what's wrong with a card that is more suited for epic? The generics certainly have a problem, but the list of generics that are not worth their points is long indeed. Might as well propose a fix for the Outer Rim Smuggler.

46 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The difference in potential between Corran Horn and the generics is one that needs to be taken into account - which means any 'fix' needs to synergise best with not-corran-horn but should still ideally be useable with him.

What wave do you live in?
It amazes me that in the age of Quickdraw and Dengar there are actually people that beat to the drum of "Corran is too good to benefit from any kind of E-Wing fix cuz double tap is so OP". No, he is not - he is solid ship at best, and against certain things he is just outright terrible - in no way he is top tier pick now.

2 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

What wave do you live in?
It amazes me that in the age of Quickdraw and Dengar there are actually people that beat to the drum of "Corran is too good to benefit from any kind of E-Wing fix cuz double tap is so OP". No, he is not - he is solid ship at best, and against certain things he is just outright terrible - in no way he is top tier pick now.

Still he seems to fall in the category "well enough to be left alone".

Quote

What wave do you live in?
It amazes me that in the age of Quickdraw and Dengar there are actually people that beat to the drum of "Corran is too good to benefit from any kind of E-Wing fix cuz double tap is so OP". No, he is not - he is solid ship at best, and against certain things he is just outright terrible - in no way he is top tier pick now.

Not what I meant; I'm not suggesting Corran is overpowered but that he is sufficiently head-and-shoulders clear of any other E-wing pilot that an "E-wing Fix" essentially becomes "I Want Corran Horn To Be Better" unless the fix is in some way anti-synergistic with his ability; you still see Corran Horn in games now (albeit without the track record he once had) and never see any other E-wing pilot.

I'm not suggesting that any benefit shouldn't make him better. It should . But it shouldn't make him even better, proportionately to the other E-wings, than he already is. He needs a slight leg up. Knave Squadron needs a massive boost on the scale of TIE/x1 or Vaksai .

Quickdraw and Dengar are good examples because the ships they are attached to have multiple unique pilots who are all worth taking (Backdraft, Tel Trevura, and Manaroo - who was sufficiently good they actually toned her down in an FAQ).

1 hour ago, Stevey86 said:

Yes... if you're only flying 1 E-Wing.

Some of us want to fly 3!

Indeed. And tying the cost such that a reasonably-comfortably equipped build is ~33 points is a key 'pricing point' to allow you to do so. At the moment, a clean-chassis PS1 generic is 27 points; meaning that by the time you've bought a 2 point astromech and a 2-point systems upgrade, you're done.

Knocking a couple of points off, adding some sort of bonus rule and providing a Countess Ryad/Wampa/Tarn Mison/Jess Pava equivalent at 29/30 points and PS3-4 would let you actually seriously consider a 3-ship knave squadron force (I don't think Dark Empire ever identifies the squadron's commander as anything except 'Knave Leader', but then if we can have 'Zeta Leader' and 'Omega Leader', why not 'Knave Leader'?).

Etahn is an odd one that doesn't really need 'fixing' - he's a pilot who's next to useless in standard games and beyond broken in epic games (where Corran Horn gets poo-pooed for not being him rather than the other way around, as he's essentially giving your entire 300 point squad mangler cannons!).

45 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Indeed. And tying the cost such that a reasonably-comfortably equipped build is ~33 points is a key 'pricing point' to allow you to do so. At the moment, a clean-chassis PS1 generic is 27 points; meaning that by the time you've bought a 2 point astromech and a 2-point systems upgrade, you're done.

Knocking a couple of points off, adding some sort of bonus rule and providing a Countess Ryad/Wampa/Tarn Mison/Jess Pava equivalent at 29/30 points and PS3-4 would let you actually seriously consider a 3-ship knave squadron force

This is the kind of thing I was thinking with my fix ideas. And also trying to make it comparative to a Defender (which has 1 more point of hull and arguably a better dial too).
Here you've got 2 x PS6 generics and a named PS5. Both with great dials and 2 actions a turn. (could easily swap for the R8 Astro and FCS, 1 point EPT on Etahn and 0 point EPTs on the FFVs)

Etahn A'Baht
E-Wing Mk. IV (-3)
R2 Astromech (1)
Push The Limit (3)
Ship Total: 33

Fifth Fleet Veteran
E-Wing Mk. IV (-3)
R2 Astromech (1)
Push The Limit (3)
Ship Total: 33

Fifth Fleet Veteran
E-Wing Mk. IV (-3)
R2 Astromech (1)
Push The Limit (3)
Ship Total: 33

Countess Ryad
TIE/x7 (-2)
Juke (2)
Ship Total: 34

Glaive Squadron Pilot
TIE/x7 (-2)
Crack Shot (1)
Ship Total: 33

Glaive Squadron Pilot
TIE/x7 (-2)
Crack Shot (1)
Ship Total: 33

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Also - note that the most recent vision of the E-wing is Jek-14's stealth fighter. Which makes the 'top gun' into a turret - maybe a limited ability to fire out of arc might be useful?

You know, that decidedly non canon turret for the no longer canon new republic advanced fighter may be the perfect idea.

I still think a system slot, like snap shot is for Elite Talents would be great

Autonomous Assault Turret

e-wing only

system; 0 points

Attack: 1 Range: 1-3

Attack: Target Lock

At the beginning of the end phase, before any other attacks or actions you MUST make this attack, even on a ship outside your firing arc. You may not attack again this round.

Add it with this little guy:

Triangulating R7 Droid

astromech 0 points?

When making a secondary weapon attack, if an ally with a copy of this upgrade also has a target lock on your target, you may cancel that target lock to reduce their agility by one (to a minimum of 0)

The problem is that a 1-dice attack is not really going to do anything to 99% of targets. I'd probably do it the other way; rather than making it a range 1-3, 1-dice secondary weapon, give it an out-of-arc primary with restrictions:

Systems Upgrade:

Pintle-Mount Laser

When attacking with your primary weapon, you may target an enemy ship you have locked outside your firing arc at range 1. You do not receive a Range Combat Bonus when you do so.

That essentially makes the upgrade the equivalent of the (effective) bits of the Dorsal Turret, which seems like a fair thing to do (and a moderately useful bit of kit for a manoeuvrable, barrel-rolling fighter).

It's the equivalent of having a 2-dice primary in a turret - which, since the E-wing makes 3 lasers count as 4, we can assume the 'top gun' is able to count as 2.

10 minutes ago, Stevey86 said:

This is the kind of thing I was thinking with my fix ideas. And also trying to make it comparative to a Defender (which has 1 more point of hull and arguably a better dial too).
Here you've got 2 x PS6 generics and a named PS5. Both with great dials and 2 actions a turn. (could easily swap for the R8 Astro and FCS, 1 point EPT on Etahn and 0 point EPTs on the FFVs)

Etahn A'Baht
E-Wing Mk. IV (-3)
R2 Astromech (1)
Push The Limit (3)
Ship Total: 33

Fifth Fleet Veteran
E-Wing Mk. IV (-3)
R2 Astromech (1)
Push The Limit (3)
Ship Total: 33

Fifth Fleet Veteran
E-Wing Mk. IV (-3)
R2 Astromech (1)
Push The Limit (3)
Ship Total: 33

Countess Ryad
TIE/x7 (-2)
Juke (2)
Ship Total: 34

Glaive Squadron Pilot
TIE/x7 (-2)
Crack Shot (1)
Ship Total: 33

Glaive Squadron Pilot
TIE/x7 (-2)
Crack Shot (1)
Ship Total: 33

Just to note that in practice, people usually took Ryad, Vessery and a Delta; don't underestimate the value of a pilot ability on an expensive ship.

Still, the comparison is a sensible one:

E-wing:

• TIE interceptor/Tie Advance Prototype-esque dial and action bar giving good slow/medium speed
• 3 Shields, 2 hull
• 'Mangler' effect from Etahn
• Greater tolerance for debris and asteroids (because they'd have collision detectors)

Defenders:

• Similar action economy but fixed to evade
• More open dial at higher speed - ability to K-turn
• Higher Pilot Skill
• Ability to undermine enemy defences with Juke/Crack Shot

All told, I think the Defenders still clinch it for me. E-Wing Series IV gives you a slight dial boost (which pairs nicely with R2 Astromech, making both green, which in turn pairs with Push The Limit), but you're still essentially a TIE interceptor with two extra hit points.

Royal Guard Pilot - Royal Guard TIE, Push The Limit, Shield Upgrade, Hull Upgrade has been an option since Imperial Aces, and has never really caught on as a thing (compared to ace analogues with stealth/autothrusters), and it's pretty close to the resulting ship you've described here.

Equally, this isn't really doing much that a Red Squadron Veteran couldn't. Yes, the Veteran doesn't have a speed 1 turn, but it does have access to the Pattern Analyser, letting it hard-turn and push the limit for days.

Getting the speed 1 turn does help a lot, but trying to build around Push The Limit essentially nails you to that elite talent, which demands a generic with the elite slot and then essentially pre-selects what you take.

22 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Just to note that in practice, people usually took Ryad, Vessery and a Delta; don't underestimate the value of a pilot ability on an expensive ship.

Still, the comparison is a sensible one:

E-wing:

• TIE interceptor/Tie Advance Prototype-esque dial and action bar giving good slow/medium speed
• 3 Shields, 2 hull
• 'Mangler' effect from Etahn
• Greater tolerance for debris and asteroids (because they'd have collision detectors)

Defenders:

• Similar action economy but fixed to evade
• More open dial at higher speed - ability to K-turn
• Higher Pilot Skill
• Ability to undermine enemy defences with Juke/Crack Shot

All told, I think the Defenders still clinch it for me. E-Wing Series IV gives you a slight dial boost (which pairs nicely with R2 Astromech, making both green, which in turn pairs with Push The Limit), but you're still essentially a TIE interceptor with two extra hit points.

Royal Guard Pilot - Royal Guard TIE, Push The Limit, Shield Upgrade, Hull Upgrade has been an option since Imperial Aces, and has never really caught on as a thing (compared to ace analogues with stealth/autothrusters), and it's pretty close to the resulting ship you've described here.

Equally, this isn't really doing much that a Red Squadron Veteran couldn't. Yes, the Veteran doesn't have a speed 1 turn, but it does have access to the Pattern Analyser, letting it hard-turn and push the limit for days.

Getting the speed 1 turn does help a lot, but trying to build around Push The Limit essentially nails you to that elite talent, which demands a generic with the elite slot and then essentially pre-selects what you take.

Just to clarify, when I said "this is the kind of thing I was thinking", I meant the fixes in general, not the specific build. I was juts trying to showcase a "like for like".

I think the ship should always have had the 1 turn (as well as the 1 banks being green, the ARC has more green FFS!) as it's really supposed to be the best of the A and X in 1 ship. Whether that and the points decrease would be enough, only playtesting would tell.

But I personally don't see either the generic X-Wing or E-Wing getting regular play unless there are some far better quality generic astromechs brought into the game, because the ones we currently have just aren't cutting it.

5 minutes ago, Stevey86 said:

I think the ship should always have had the 1 turn (as well as the 1 banks being green, the ARC has more green FFS!) as it's really supposed to be the best of the A and X in 1 ship. Whether that and the points decrease would be enough, only playtesting would tell.

To be a manoeuvrable fighter doesn't necessarily mandate a speed 1 turn (I think that was deliberate such that it didn't tread on the A-wing's toes), but it wouldn't be a bad option. That said, a speed 2 turn + barrel roll is essentially the same thing (provided you have the action economy to barrel roll 'at will').

The ARC pointedly has "great dial at slow speed, poor at high speed" - it's meant to be a 'reverse TIE defender'.

That said, good speed 1 moves would help the E-wing as a 'sniper' role (akin to the TIE Advanced Prototype), which would help in using it in the 'sniper' role it's been cast in in Armada