As a long time Warhammer Fantasy nerd, this news pleases me a great deal. What GW did to Fantasy was ruin a great gaming system, maybe they did the same to 40K.

Nah, 40K is still alot of fun but it's still a huge $$$ sink, and you have to play against friends and agree on the kind of game you want to play. Tournament level cheese is as big a friendship ruiner as a game of 'Diplomacy'

Actually, tournament level 40k is quite fun, as long as everyone is on board with the premises(that maybe about 10% of the models are competitively viable and more than half of the codexes simply are not competitive). Between competitive lists, 40k is quite balanced (although too dice dependent for my taste). Except Eldar. Eldar is over the top atm.

It's almost as bad as DE in Conquest

Seriously though, leave my WraithKnight's alone...

GW lumps all its sales into one Warhammer-bundle because it makes them look bigger - they made that change several years ago when WFB REALLY started to slip against Warmahordes. Puts the fall of GW into even sharper prospective, doesn't it?

And now for an bit of a reality check (which I've been waiting to say til there was independent confirmation):

Because this only tracks independent retail sales and not GW's store sales, it has great meaning only in the Americas. In the UK (and Europe to a lesser extent), GW games are concentrated at their stores, and so it can make them bigger than they look according to those numbers.

It's also worth noting that indie retailers don't like carrying GW either, as even GW doesn't burn you, it's still VERY expensive and you HAVE to carry more than just the stuff which sells - which means that WFB stuff can sit on the shelf for years while W40k flies off. There's a lot of crappy rules attached to being a GW store.

HOWEVER, it's another strong indicator of their decline. All people wanted was an alternative, and while I don't think X-Wing is perfect it's a solid game.

Part of this is just the arcade mindset I grew up on, but to me the quality of a game is measured on its ability to play against complete strangers. Even when playing with my best of friends, I'd just as soon trust the game than try to coerce them into playing "fair". The best games are the ones in which tournament play still feels pretty casual.

THIS!

OMFG, THIS!

The only time I've ever had to call someone out in X-Wing was once, someone who kept 'accidentally bumping' their ships and replacing them in blatantly better positions (a 45 degree turn is NOT accidental, I have memory that lasts longer than 20 seconds!) I'm clumsy myself and even with weighted bases there's still too many problems (oh, if only I could magnetize the tables!) but there are some genuine asshats who played competitive 40k.

I can only imagine how much worse it's gotten since anyone who played the game to enjoy it left, leaving behind only the asshats who can't give up their AWESOME BLOOD DRINKING SPACE CYBORG MARINEZZ!

Yes, top-level play can be cutthroat, but the rules are clear and well-balanced with no fudge room.

As a long time Warhammer Fantasy nerd, this news pleases me a great deal. What GW did to Fantasy was ruin a great gaming system, maybe they did the same to 40K.

Nah, 40K is still alot of fun but it's still a huge $$$ sink, and you have to play against friends and agree on the kind of game you want to play. Tournament level cheese is as big a friendship ruiner as a game of 'Diplomacy'

Actually, tournament level 40k is quite fun, as long as everyone is on board with the premises(that maybe about 10% of the models are competitively viable and more than half of the codexes simply are not competitive). Between competitive lists, 40k is quite balanced (although too dice dependent for my taste). Except Eldar. Eldar is over the top atm.

It's almost as bad as DE in Conquest

Seriously though, leave my WraithKnight's alone...

While really strong and cost-effective, not the Wraithknight is the real issue in competitive Eldar. Most tournaments limit you to only 1, and your average competitive marine or War Convocation has enough grav to obliterate it quite quickly.

The problems that I see are the jetbikes (most mobile troops in the game and **** cost effective), batteries (only army for which massed D strength shooting is a thing) and dropping D-scythe Wraithguard and/or Fire Dragons via Archon Webway Portal.

Nah, 40K is still alot of fun but it's still a huge $$$ sink, and you have to play against friends and agree on the kind of game you want to play. Tournament level cheese is as big a friendship ruiner as a game of 'Diplomacy'

Part of this is just the arcade mindset I grew up on, but to me the quality of a game is measured on its ability to play against complete strangers. Even when playing with my best of friends, I'd just as soon trust the game than try to coerce them into playing "fair". The best games are the ones in which tournament play still feels pretty casual.

To play the Devil's advocate, does tournament play in X-Wing resemble anything anyone would play "casually"? Several of the iconic Star Wars ships are all but extinct, and everything is based off of a small pool of "best ofs" and comes down to who knows how to fly them better. 12 of the top 32 lists had Y-Wings with TLT, there was 1 A-Wing, no X-Wings, no Bombers. 1 T-70 pilot, 1 E-Wing pilot, 2 Interceptor pilots, 2 B-Wing pilots. Scum lists were all either Brobots, or Y-Wings (plus one list that mixed a HWK into the Y-Wings).

X-Wing has a pretty clear meta build on specific card ownership if you want to play in a tournament, because a lot of pilots severely outclass anything else in their type, and a lot of ship types severely outclass others, and there are quite a few auto-take upgrades.

As a long time Warhammer Fantasy nerd, this news pleases me a great deal. What GW did to Fantasy was ruin a great gaming system, maybe they did the same to 40K.

Nah, 40K is still alot of fun but it's still a huge $$$ sink, and you have to play against friends and agree on the kind of game you want to play. Tournament level cheese is as big a friendship ruiner as a game of 'Diplomacy'

Actually, tournament level 40k is quite fun, as long as everyone is on board with the premises(that maybe about 10% of the models are competitively viable and more than half of the codexes simply are not competitive). Between competitive lists, 40k is quite balanced (although too dice dependent for my taste). Except Eldar. Eldar is over the top atm.

It's almost as bad as DE in Conquest

Seriously though, leave my WraithKnight's alone...

While really strong and cost-effective, not the Wraithknight is the real issue in competitive Eldar. Most tournaments limit you to only 1, and your average competitive marine or War Convocation has enough grav to obliterate it quite quickly.

The problems that I see are the jetbikes (most mobile troops in the game and **** cost effective), batteries (only army for which massed D strength shooting is a thing) and dropping D-scythe Wraithguard and/or Fire Dragons via Archon Webway Portal.

** Makes a note to self to buy some Wraithguard and fire dragons to go along with his windrider host***

and only because I didn't want to create a 2nd reply post, I have played 4 TLT Y's for fun, as well as pretty much any tourney build you can think of. My group likes those shenanighans...just sayin..

If you are having a problem where your army is being decimated on the first turn by your opponent's shooting, then the problem you are having is not with the game, but how you are playing it. On a 6x4 table, you need to have around 8 terrain pieces of decent size, with 2 or 3 of those being solid enough to block line of sight. If you are not doing that, then it's your own **** fault for being shot off the board. It's not even that hard to make terrain that blocks LoS...

LOL. No. That's excuse making at it's finest. It's quite clearly a problem with the game. Namely a complete and utter lack of balance, both throughout the basic (lol) ruleset and the rule subsets in the codices.

You don't get wiped off the board in turn one of X-Wing due to making poor deployment decisions or "not using the right asteroids".

Yes, it must be a problem with the game that people are setting up the table that is mutually beneficial to one person.

I'm not apologizing for GW or for 40k. I recognize that there are issues with the game, just as there are issues with X-wing. I am pointing out that people are angry at the game because they are apparently quite retarded when it comes to actually playing it.

My gaming group gets together every other week to play 40k, and even against the dirtiest tournament lists around we do not get shot off the table in one turn because we use an appropriate amount of terrain. The tables we have set up will usually have two to three decent size ruins / woods in or near the deployment zones to provide cover saves for stationary units and obscure line of sight; and at least two line of sight blocking pieces of terrain in the middle two feet of the board. That could be anything from a building, to a large ruin, pipeline, or mountain.

To play the Devil's advocate, does tournament play in X-Wing resemble anything anyone would play "casually"?

Having played in both tournaments and casually: yes.

The experience is pretty much the same. Although some ships and upgrades become less popular in tournaments, the ships and upgrades I face in tournaments I also face in casual games and vice versa. Even when the ships are different, the basic feel of maneuvering and shooting remains the same. It doesn't break into something like "whose insta-win upgrade combo goes off first?"

Maybe your local place is some sort of hardcore crowd who only plays whatever they are convinced is the absolutely most optimal lists. Even then, I would be surprised it it feels like a different game.

Part of this is just the arcade mindset I grew up on, but to me the quality of a game is measured on its ability to play against complete strangers. Even when playing with my best of friends, I'd just as soon trust the game than try to coerce them into playing "fair". The best games are the ones in which tournament play still feels pretty casual.

To play the Devil's advocate, does tournament play in X-Wing resemble anything anyone would play "casually"? Several of the iconic Star Wars ships are all but extinct, and everything is based off of a small pool of "best ofs" and comes down to who knows how to fly them better. 12 of the top 32 lists had Y-Wings with TLT, there was 1 A-Wing, no X-Wings, no Bombers. 1 T-70 pilot, 1 E-Wing pilot, 2 Interceptor pilots, 2 B-Wing pilots. Scum lists were all either Brobots, or Y-Wings (plus one list that mixed a HWK into the Y-Wings).

X-Wing has a pretty clear meta build on specific card ownership if you want to play in a tournament, because a lot of pilots severely outclass anything else in their type, and a lot of ship types severely outclass others, and there are quite a few auto-take upgrades.

Other than the "must own enough copies of each upgrade you field" part of tournament play, yeah, I really think it does for the most part. That said, quality is a fine scale far from binary. Overall, X-Wing rates rather highly compared to most games of the genre, which may have more to say with how other games rate depending on your point of view.

Part of that is that I've never subscribed to the mentality that "playing casual" exempts you from the realities of the game. There's a certain strange sense of entitlement to winning among a specific crowd who expect to win regardless of the choices they make (there's another crowd who believes in their right to win based on previous success, but that's another topic) and there's a certain point where no quality of game can consolidate the idea that each player has as much right to win.

That's not to say I don't side with the idea that people should be able to play with their toys. Nothing sucks as much as loving something dearly that isn't viable. That said, in this game I feel like most of the toys ARE viable and that's one of the best things about it casually. Given any combination of ships (minus the HWK and a few others) you can probably make a solid list if you're willing to change the pilots and upgrades. There's nothing quite as cool as making a ship someone loves sing for them and it means anyone's stuff can be brought up to tournament caliber with what really amounts to very little effort.

Nah, 40K is still alot of fun but it's still a huge $$$ sink, and you have to play against friends and agree on the kind of game you want to play. Tournament level cheese is as big a friendship ruiner as a game of 'Diplomacy'

Part of this is just the arcade mindset I grew up on, but to me the quality of a game is measured on its ability to play against complete strangers. Even when playing with my best of friends, I'd just as soon trust the game than try to coerce them into playing "fair". The best games are the ones in which tournament play still feels pretty casual.

To play the Devil's advocate, does tournament play in X-Wing resemble anything anyone would play "casually"? Several of the iconic Star Wars ships are all but extinct, and everything is based off of a small pool of "best ofs" and comes down to who knows how to fly them better. 12 of the top 32 lists had Y-Wings with TLT, there was 1 A-Wing, no X-Wings, no Bombers. 1 T-70 pilot, 1 E-Wing pilot, 2 Interceptor pilots, 2 B-Wing pilots. Scum lists were all either Brobots, or Y-Wings (plus one list that mixed a HWK into the Y-Wings).

X-Wing has a pretty clear meta build on specific card ownership if you want to play in a tournament, because a lot of pilots severely outclass anything else in their type, and a lot of ship types severely outclass others, and there are quite a few auto-take upgrades.

I dunno. Every XWing tourney I've been to has had people smiling and laughing. Does that count as casual?

Nah, 40K is still alot of fun but it's still a huge $$$ sink, and you have to play against friends and agree on the kind of game you want to play. Tournament level cheese is as big a friendship ruiner as a game of 'Diplomacy'

Part of this is just the arcade mindset I grew up on, but to me the quality of a game is measured on its ability to play against complete strangers. Even when playing with my best of friends, I'd just as soon trust the game than try to coerce them into playing "fair". The best games are the ones in which tournament play still feels pretty casual.

To play the Devil's advocate, does tournament play in X-Wing resemble anything anyone would play "casually"? Several of the iconic Star Wars ships are all but extinct, and everything is based off of a small pool of "best ofs" and comes down to who knows how to fly them better. 12 of the top 32 lists had Y-Wings with TLT, there was 1 A-Wing, no X-Wings, no Bombers. 1 T-70 pilot, 1 E-Wing pilot, 2 Interceptor pilots, 2 B-Wing pilots. Scum lists were all either Brobots, or Y-Wings (plus one list that mixed a HWK into the Y-Wings).

X-Wing has a pretty clear meta build on specific card ownership if you want to play in a tournament, because a lot of pilots severely outclass anything else in their type, and a lot of ship types severely outclass others, and there are quite a few auto-take upgrades.

I dunno. Every XWing tourney I've been to has had people smiling and laughing. Does that count as casual?

Yes tournaments are serious business no fun allowed ever!!!

At its core, I too think X-wing tournament play isn't very different from 40k tournament play, in the sense that competitive lists still wreck casual lists regularly in both games. The difference is much bigger in 40k,both because the extremes of the balance spectrum are further apart and because your list matters way more in 40k than it dies in x-wing

Nah, 40K is still alot of fun but it's still a huge $$$ sink, and you have to play against friends and agree on the kind of game you want to play. Tournament level cheese is as big a friendship ruiner as a game of 'Diplomacy'

Part of this is just the arcade mindset I grew up on, but to me the quality of a game is measured on its ability to play against complete strangers. Even when playing with my best of friends, I'd just as soon trust the game than try to coerce them into playing "fair". The best games are the ones in which tournament play still feels pretty casual.

To play the Devil's advocate, does tournament play in X-Wing resemble anything anyone would play "casually"? Several of the iconic Star Wars ships are all but extinct, and everything is based off of a small pool of "best ofs" and comes down to who knows how to fly them better. 12 of the top 32 lists had Y-Wings with TLT, there was 1 A-Wing, no X-Wings, no Bombers. 1 T-70 pilot, 1 E-Wing pilot, 2 Interceptor pilots, 2 B-Wing pilots. Scum lists were all either Brobots, or Y-Wings (plus one list that mixed a HWK into the Y-Wings).

X-Wing has a pretty clear meta build on specific card ownership if you want to play in a tournament, because a lot of pilots severely outclass anything else in their type, and a lot of ship types severely outclass others, and there are quite a few auto-take upgrades.

Look at Store Championships, not Worlds. The top 32 is the unquestionably Tier 1 stuff. The Store Championships is where you get the more fun, tier 1.5 and 2 stuff. Stuff that won't necessarily win Worlds, but can win more locally. That is where you can find the true health of the meta.

That, and I think you are looking for problems in your analysis. There is a pretty hard limit on the number of ships and pilots that can show up in top 32. A number whose percentage will only get smaller as more stuff is released.

As a long time Warhammer Fantasy nerd, this news pleases me a great deal. What GW did to Fantasy was ruin a great gaming system, maybe they did the same to 40K.

Final Chaos victory. That was the only good thing to come out of the endtimes...

the level of FAIL GW spit out in the storm of chaos campaign that was supposed to "have great impact on lore"

and where chaos sucked harder than scyk!

It did have a great impact on lore: It wiped it all out!

I liked clan Pestilens going back to lustria for round two... I liked we finally got to see some more of the isle of the dead and the widowmaker. I liked Sigvald vs Krell. Aaaaaaaaaaaand then the skaven blew up the moon and more crazy sh*t happened and then GW blew it all up.

Yo dawg, we heard you like WFB

But you've bought everything you could have wanted and sales dropped

so we blew it all up and told ya that it's now AoS

so you can play Spehss Mehreeens in FB!

You said the rules sucked? Now you know that they were halfway decent! BECAUSE THEY EXISTED!

And now we sit here in Gendo pose and ask ouselves "why don't people rush to buy new AoS zigheil-marines?"

Yes, in Star Wars I've seen a guy wreck face with a Luke, Poe, Biggs list because he knew how to fly them and had the right upgrades - yeah, it would have been stronger without Luke (and probably without Wedge too) but he did some serious damage and won some games. On the other hand, I've seen a classic Super Fat Hand build go absolutely nowhere because he drove it straight into the teeth of a mini-swarm backed up by Howlrunner!

HOW you fly can be just as important as WHAT you fly. I'm saying that previous player beat a PalpAces list, but he flew well enough to destroy the shuttle and nearly kill Soontir.

Now, pulling that kind of subpar list in 40k? Hollow laugh!

That, and I think you are looking for problems in your analysis. There is a pretty hard limit on the number of ships and pilots that can show up in top 32. A number whose percentage will only get smaller as more stuff is released.

I mean, I know Games Workshop is a lightning rod for haters (and not entirely undeservedly), and this thread is a communal exercise in confirmation bias, but let's be realistic here. Worlds lists aren't some kind of far cry from store tournaments. They're just refined versions of the lists you see in stores, played by better players. Unless you're telling me you don't see Brobots and quad-TLTs at store championships, lol.

No. But you do see a wider variety of lists. I mean, someone just won one with a Punisher. Using Worlds results to determine casualness seems like a silly proposition.

Yes, in Star Wars I've seen a guy wreck face with a Luke, Poe, Biggs list because he knew how to fly them and had the right upgrades - yeah, it would have been stronger without Luke (and probably without Wedge too) but he did some serious damage and won some games. On the other hand, I've seen a classic Super Fat Hand build go absolutely nowhere because he drove it straight into the teeth of a mini-swarm backed up by Howlrunner!

HOW you fly can be just as important as WHAT you fly. I'm saying that previous player beat a PalpAces list, but he flew well enough to destroy the shuttle and nearly kill Soontir.

Now, pulling that kind of subpar list in 40k? Hollow laugh!

Same thing with 40k. If a poor player plays the best netlist, they will lose. Hard.

Give a top tier player a suboptimal list and they will still do well with it.

My gaming group is host to some of the top players in Canada with proven track records at the largest tournaments in North America. The things I've seen these guys do with fun, fluffy lists is almost sickening lol

...

Part of this is just the arcade mindset I grew up on, but to me the quality of a game is measured on its ability to play against complete strangers. Even when playing with my best of friends, I'd just as soon trust the game than try to coerce them into playing "fair". The best games are the ones in which tournament play still feels pretty casual.

THIS!

OMFG, THIS!

The only time I've ever had to call someone out in X-Wing was once, someone who kept 'accidentally bumping' their ships and replacing them in blatantly better positions (a 45 degree turn is NOT accidental, I have memory that lasts longer than 20 seconds!) I'm clumsy myself and even with weighted bases there's still too many problems (oh, if only I could magnetize the tables!) but there are some genuine asshats who played competitive 40k.

I can only imagine how much worse it's gotten since anyone who played the game to enjoy it left, leaving behind only the asshats who can't give up their AWESOME BLOOD DRINKING SPACE CYBORG MARINEZZ!

Yes, top-level play can be cutthroat, but the rules are clear and well-balanced with no fudge room.

Yeah but as popularity shifts you will start to see some of those kind of players start to come here. People that play only to win and often resort to rule lawyering (and sometimes even cheating) don't really care much for the game or hobby as much as they care about dominating other people. The reason why 40K had so many of those "asshats" was because it was the biggest game in the miniature table top market. MTG has just as many if not more. As X-wing moves up in the world we will start to get our own too.

Now not saying that we shouldn't encourage a stronger player base or say that we have too many players and we shouldn't trust newer players. We should always welcome new players but we still have to be mindful of the potential dangers the success of X-wing could have.

Way I see it the more competition GW has the better. Rumor is that their going to be doing more board games but I don't see them doing all that well in that space unless they get some really good designers on board and price those games reasonably against whats already on the market.

Most of their recent games seem to have dated rules systems and cost twice what FFG and the competition offers.

Now I don't its going to be as dire for games workshop as some folks around here might predict, their brands are still popular and they most likely have a rainy day fund of profits they can dip into should they need to.

But I don't see them luring me back to the games workshop hobby especially since I'm converting all my fantasy models over to kings of war/dungeon saga and my 40k models (that are mostly useless these days unless I re-base them) will most likely be use for diorama's to look at.

Yes, in Star Wars I've seen a guy wreck face with a Luke, Poe, Biggs list because he knew how to fly them and had the right upgrades - yeah, it would have been stronger without Luke (and probably without Wedge too) but he did some serious damage and won some games. On the other hand, I've seen a classic Super Fat Hand build go absolutely nowhere because he drove it straight into the teeth of a mini-swarm backed up by Howlrunner!

HOW you fly can be just as important as WHAT you fly. I'm saying that previous player beat a PalpAces list, but he flew well enough to destroy the shuttle and nearly kill Soontir.

Now, pulling that kind of subpar list in 40k? Hollow laugh!

Same thing with 40k. If a poor player plays the best netlist, they will lose. Hard.

Give a top tier player a suboptimal list and they will still do well with it.

My gaming group is host to some of the top players in Canada with proven track records at the largest tournaments in North America. The things I've seen these guys do with fun, fluffy lists is almost sickening lol

Yeah, sure, win things with Banshee squads, guardians and spiritseers.

good luck to you, lad!

You CAN go wrong with a good list, but 40k is a failure because of COMPLETE AND UTTER LACK OF BALANCE

aka "Buy our new box, nonono, buy 5 of them!" is terrible to the point of requiring two sets of arms for facepalming.

In rare cases GW fails and makes old boxes too good (Hello there, Wave serpent!) and swiftly nerfs them back.

There are New Brilliant™ Miniatures™ by Citadel™ awaiting on the shelves of the nearest GW store!

I know a guy who manages to get house rules to evolve for his Chaos Marines. His bargaining chip is his Tau army, which reasons to "lets play a fun game, or play my 90% win rate cheesy army."

But yeah, balance in 40k is the result of selling miniatures to whale gamers, not selling the game for players. GW are cut throat and EA level scum, the vassal hacking and that one spin off company is pretty low for business standards. I have no sympathy for them when gamers can write better rules, their umbrella company make better sculpts, and recasters and 3DPs make the same quality for a realistic price.

What I find interesting, and is something I only just realised is this.

The folks defending 40k are doing it by saying "we" are doing it wrong. That to have a decent game you need a ton of scenery.

Now, this gem is nothing new. You needed a lot if scenery in Rogue Trader (where I started). I have no problem with the concept of scenery and setting up a table. That is fun, but...there is a difference between wanting to set up a cool looking future battlefield, or in fantasy a few hills, woods and a few farmhouses and absolutely needing to stack the table with so much terrain is blocks every line of sight to stop the MEGA DEATH RAYZ from frying everything.

Game balance should be inherent in a rule set, it shouldn't have to come from players subjective opinions. While Flames of War has its own issues, terrain is not one of them. Open terrain in that is as tactically important as is cover or roads. And even in open cover the game has simple mechanics to prevent instant gibbing from Konigstigers.

My point is a decent rules set will inherently prevent turn 1 instawins from the most nukey army. A decent ruleset will directly lead into a balanced game without needing to houserule immediately.

So please, the folks claiming we are the retards (as one tool has already done), you are missing the point.

Sure you can have fun, knock yourselves out. But I don't accept that a game in which I have to patch straight away in order to have fun, a game where my opponent and I need to have a little chat beforehand to discuss the level of cheese being bought is a good ruleset. It obviously isn't.

And I was one of you guys for decades.

I played 40k in second, when men were real men. When my Marines could take a couple of virus grenades and a few vortex grensdes and kill 100 orks in turn 2. And then start shooting. You youngsters have no idea what unfair and dumb rules really are.

I will just no longer play a game where the lazy company expects me to do half the work for them.

No more.

Yeah I remember the days when terminators laughed off fire and rolled 2D6.

I still miss 2D6 terminators.I also remember Genestealers that would never let you an attack in melee because the sheer amount of attacks just overwhelmed.

Overly kitted out pre assassin minidex imperial assassins.

Harlequins.

Originally Terminators were just an unmodifiable armour save of 3+ if I recall, first ed?

Doesn't anyone miss Squats? .... no?