Pre internet it was nigh on impossible to get your hands on non GW games unless you lived near a big city because GW drove most games stores out of business.

I love battletech but could never find models here, I had to wait for trips to Florida so I could travel down to the collisium of comics and get more with my younger brother, good times.

But I live in the dead zone

As for 40k formations were the worst thing to happen to it they utterly destroy balance, ffs you can take 500 points of transports free with space marines demi company how's that fair?

It's just there to sell models and its disgusting.

Ahh yes, the 40k is dumb and if you play it you are dumb comment. I assume you enjoy the failing Warmachine? Going to tell us page 6, bro?

If 40k was as bad as people made it out to be, it would have died ages ago. Of course, logic and reason have no place in your world, hmm?

That being said, I love me some Xwing, and I'm glad to see it doing well. Of course, an earlier comment about the only real 40k release being the Tau in the last few months is also true.

From the early 90's to 2004 in the UK GW was the only game in town if you wanted to miniature war game and they offered a wide variety of games to entertain.

That was before the rot really set in then they decided to drop specialist games and swap their focus from vets to kids, that's the year things went **** up.

GW turned its back on a loyal fan base and that's where the hate comes from.

As for 40k 5th edition was the last playable version it wasn't perfect but it was fun, 6th rewards you for playing gun lines and taking flyers and had the broken allies system.

7th was far worse it let you bring in titans to a regular 2k games, it added objectives which let you get a win even if your army was blasted off the board, and unbound was blatantly there to make the game pay to win.

That was before they even released eldar and tau.

Modern 40k is a terrible mess driven by corporate greed not the desire to make a good game or provide a good service to their customers.

40k has become a joke sadly and GW the punch line.

Have you actually played 7th though? Nobody plays unbound, and when you do see it in that rare pick up game you can usually beat it by simply playing maelstrom (which, as far as I've seen, is the standard pick up game type).

And if your army is tabled you automatically lose. So no, you can't be blasted off the table and still win.

As for Titans in small games... Well, you beat those by playing to the objectives.

And 5th was only fun if you played Blood Angels or Guard sitting in your parking lot.

Cheese has been in the game forever. 2nd had virus (I think it was Called virus?) missiles blowing entire armies off the table turn 1. 3rd had consolidating into combat, and the 3.5 Chaos book. Also Eldar. 4th had Fish of Fury, Eldar, and rhino rush. 5th had leaf blower and parking lots, not to mention GKs and Necrons near the end.

Why is the cheese now suddenly so horrendous for people? The fact that pretty much every army and faction has their own cheese, with a few notable exceptions (cough sisters)?

Pre internet it was nigh on impossible to get your hands on non GW games unless you lived near a big city because GW drove most games stores out of business.

I love battletech but could never find models here, I had to wait for trips to Florida so I could travel down to the collisium of comics and get more with my younger brother, good times.

But I live in the dead zone

As for 40k formations were the worst thing to happen to it they utterly destroy balance, ffs you can take 500 points of transports free with space marines demi company how's that fair?

It's just there to sell models and its disgusting.

The Battle Company Gladius formation has not taken a major tournament. Nor has the War Convocation, which gets free upgrades on all of the units in it. The top two lists at LVO were both Eldar.

A free Razorback does not fix the fact that the Tactical marine is utter dog poop in modern 40k. Assault Marines had them for years, didn't see Vanilla Assault Marines taking the world by storm!

GW made a gamble with AOS. They had to do something, as the tactical marine box was out selling the entire Fantasy range. A lot of the stuff they are currently releasing has been in the pipe since before the new CEO took over (I believe admech has copyright 2013 on it!). Now whether he pushed for its release or if it was planned to be released already, who knows.

They are working on getting things back on track... I suppose we will see what happens in the next year or so with 40k.

As far as I'm aware, there was a time not so long ago when the tactical marine box was outselling the entire rest of the 40k range as well... Certainly Marines as a whole have been their cash cow for many years, hence the number of codices catering to various forms of power armoured super-humans.

You're absolutely correct that they had to do something with WHFB, but AoS was so obviously ill-conceived.

2nd Ed had guardian spam, virus, STR10 plasma cannons.

1st ed had Autocannons, plasma rifles, and required a referee.

I am fully aware that cheese was always there. But in earlier eds it wasn't as bad.

GW made a gamble with AOS. They had to do something, as the tactical marine box was out selling the entire Fantasy range. A lot of the stuff they are currently releasing has been in the pipe since before the new CEO took over (I believe admech has copyright 2013 on it!). Now whether he pushed for its release or if it was planned to be released already, who knows.

They are working on getting things back on track... I suppose we will see what happens in the next year or so with 40k.

As far as I'm aware, there was a time not so long ago when the tactical marine box was outselling the entire rest of the 40k range as well... Certainly Marines as a whole have been their cash cow for many years, hence the number of codices catering to various forms of power armoured super-humans.

You're absolutely correct that they had to do something with WHFB, but AoS was so obviously ill-conceived.

Yep. I agree that AOS was ill conceived, but I also know that Sigmarines have gotten a bunch of money for the local GW. I think these boxes outsold their Fantasy stuff back in 8th.

It sucked because i got into Fantasy right before End Times came out, and I enjoyed the rank and file aspect. Though more than any other game I've played, Fantasy had snobs. I mean, holy cow. Maybe that was what was killing Fantasy, the uptight people who looked down on others who were just starting. Not everyone was, of course, but I never found so many as when I played fantasy.

People still play 40k. Just because you are bitter doesn't still mean it's a widely enjoyed game system. It has its qualities, and, of course, negative aspects.

It is still a good game. 7th is one of the better editions, and while it definitely needs some FAQs and Erratas and some cleaning up, it's not nearly as bad as the vocal minority make it out to be. These things hold it back from being a great game.

40K is a horribly and unnecessarily bloated game, with random extras thrown in on a clear for-profit basis rather than with the intention of improving the game for the players.

It works well if you play it with someone you know, on the understanding that it is a casual game where you should both take balanced lists that don't include flyers, superheavies, unbound etc.. I wouldn't play it under any other circumstances.

What 40K needs, is a rule set where the primary focus is to make a good, clean game and let the profit come from people actually wanting to play the game because it's great, rather than the primary focus being how to maximise short term profit by changing rules to encourage purchases from WAAC gamers.

Ahh yes, the 40k is dumb and if you play it you are dumb comment. I assume you enjoy the failing Warmachine? Going to tell us page 6, bro?

If 40k was as bad as people made it out to be, it would have died ages ago. Of course, logic and reason have no place in your world, hmm?

That being said, I love me some Xwing, and I'm glad to see it doing well. Of course, an earlier comment about the only real 40k release being the Tau in the last few months is also true.

From the early 90's to 2004 in the UK GW was the only game in town if you wanted to miniature war game and they offered a wide variety of games to entertain.

That was before the rot really set in then they decided to drop specialist games and swap their focus from vets to kids, that's the year things went **** up.

GW turned its back on a loyal fan base and that's where the hate comes from.

As for 40k 5th edition was the last playable version it wasn't perfect but it was fun, 6th rewards you for playing gun lines and taking flyers and had the broken allies system.

7th was far worse it let you bring in titans to a regular 2k games, it added objectives which let you get a win even if your army was blasted off the board, and unbound was blatantly there to make the game pay to win.

That was before they even released eldar and tau.

Modern 40k is a terrible mess driven by corporate greed not the desire to make a good game or provide a good service to their customers.

40k has become a joke sadly and GW the punch line.

Specialist games were not making money back then, unfortunately. I know I wish I had more money back then to pick up a small Space Marine fleet, a barge and a pair of cruisers.

Have you actually played 7th though? Nobody plays unbound, and when you do see it in that rare pick up game you can usually beat it by simply playing maelstrom (which, as far as I've seen, is the standard pick up game type).

And if your army is tabled you automatically lose. So no, you can't be blasted off the table and still win.

As for Titans in small games... Well, you beat those by playing to the objectives.

And 5th was only fun if you played Blood Angels or Guard sitting in your parking lot.

Cheese has been in the game forever. 2nd had virus (I think it was Called virus?) missiles blowing entire armies off the table turn 1. 3rd had consolidating into combat, and the 3.5 Chaos book. Also Eldar. 4th had Fish of Fury, Eldar, and rhino rush. 5th had leaf blower and parking lots, not to mention GKs and Necrons near the end.

Why is the cheese now suddenly so horrendous for people? The fact that pretty much every army and faction has their own cheese, with a few notable exceptions (cough sisters)?

Pre internet it was nigh on impossible to get your hands on non GW games unless you lived near a big city because GW drove most games stores out of business.

I love battletech but could never find models here, I had to wait for trips to Florida so I could travel down to the collisium of comics and get more with my younger brother, good times.

But I live in the dead zone

As for 40k formations were the worst thing to happen to it they utterly destroy balance, ffs you can take 500 points of transports free with space marines demi company how's that fair?

It's just there to sell models and its disgusting.

The Battle Company Gladius formation has not taken a major tournament. Nor has the War Convocation, which gets free upgrades on all of the units in it. The top two lists at LVO were both Eldar.

A free Razorback does not fix the fact that the Tactical marine is utter dog poop in modern 40k. Assault Marines had them for years, didn't see Vanilla Assault Marines taking the world by storm!

Sorry but you're wrong specialist games did sell they were ended because management thought they were taking sales from the main three games.

It's the kind of idiotic thinking that's led them toward the brink.

I haven't played 7th I disliked 6th I tried for a year and a half to find the fun but never could and 7th was just more of the same with a bunch of added stuff I hated the idea of.

Blasted off does not = tabled it means you can lose 90% of your force but have been lucky enough to pull the right cards to win on victory points.

I'd never play some one beardy enough to bring a titan to a 40k game they are clearly tfg.

Jeez this is like being back on whineseer.

1st Ed had untargetable Harlequin jet bikes strafing the battlefield for D6 heavy shrunken cannon hits per model in a 2" wide corridor that could extend the entire length of the board and Terminators counting as a 1pt dreadnaught against the Kiss (Harlequins auto-killed Terminators). If I remember rightly the errata nerfing the jet bikes (to only being able to strafe every other turn) was only available at that year's games day, and this is well before publically accessible internet. 40K has never been balanced around anything but selling the latest hot new figures.

That's true. Harlequins and also some of the things you could do to imperial assassins in 1st and 2nd...

I maintain that balance was better though.

Third also had fairly good balance for the most part.

Ahh yes, the 40k is dumb and if you play it you are dumb comment. I assume you enjoy the failing Warmachine? Going to tell us page 6, bro?

If 40k was as bad as people made it out to be, it would have died ages ago. Of course, logic and reason have no place in your world, hmm?

That being said, I love me some Xwing, and I'm glad to see it doing well. Of course, an earlier comment about the only real 40k release being the Tau in the last few months is also true.

From the early 90's to 2004 in the UK GW was the only game in town if you wanted to miniature war game and they offered a wide variety of games to entertain.

That was before the rot really set in then they decided to drop specialist games and swap their focus from vets to kids, that's the year things went **** up.

GW turned its back on a loyal fan base and that's where the hate comes from.

As for 40k 5th edition was the last playable version it wasn't perfect but it was fun, 6th rewards you for playing gun lines and taking flyers and had the broken allies system.

7th was far worse it let you bring in titans to a regular 2k games, it added objectives which let you get a win even if your army was blasted off the board, and unbound was blatantly there to make the game pay to win.

That was before they even released eldar and tau.

Modern 40k is a terrible mess driven by corporate greed not the desire to make a good game or provide a good service to their customers.

40k has become a joke sadly and GW the punch line.

Specialist games were not making money back then, unfortunately. I know I wish I had more money back then to pick up a small Space Marine fleet, a barge and a pair of cruisers.

Have you actually played 7th though? Nobody plays unbound, and when you do see it in that rare pick up game you can usually beat it by simply playing maelstrom (which, as far as I've seen, is the standard pick up game type).

And if your army is tabled you automatically lose. So no, you can't be blasted off the table and still win.

As for Titans in small games... Well, you beat those by playing to the objectives.

And 5th was only fun if you played Blood Angels or Guard sitting in your parking lot.

Cheese has been in the game forever. 2nd had virus (I think it was Called virus?) missiles blowing entire armies off the table turn 1. 3rd had consolidating into combat, and the 3.5 Chaos book. Also Eldar. 4th had Fish of Fury, Eldar, and rhino rush. 5th had leaf blower and parking lots, not to mention GKs and Necrons near the end.

Why is the cheese now suddenly so horrendous for people? The fact that pretty much every army and faction has their own cheese, with a few notable exceptions (cough sisters)?

Pre internet it was nigh on impossible to get your hands on non GW games unless you lived near a big city because GW drove most games stores out of business.

I love battletech but could never find models here, I had to wait for trips to Florida so I could travel down to the collisium of comics and get more with my younger brother, good times.

But I live in the dead zone

As for 40k formations were the worst thing to happen to it they utterly destroy balance, ffs you can take 500 points of transports free with space marines demi company how's that fair?

It's just there to sell models and its disgusting.

The Battle Company Gladius formation has not taken a major tournament. Nor has the War Convocation, which gets free upgrades on all of the units in it. The top two lists at LVO were both Eldar.

A free Razorback does not fix the fact that the Tactical marine is utter dog poop in modern 40k. Assault Marines had them for years, didn't see Vanilla Assault Marines taking the world by storm!

Sorry but you're wrong specialist games did sell they were ended because management thought they were taking sales from the main three games.

It's the kind of idiotic thinking that's led them toward the brink.

I haven't played 7th I disliked 6th I tried for a year and a half to find the fun but never could and 7th was just more of the same with a bunch of added stuff I hated the idea of.

Blasted off does not = tabled it means you can lose 90% of your force but have been lucky enough to pull the right cards to win on victory points.

I'd never play some one beardy enough to bring a titan to a 40k game they are clearly tfg.

Jeez this is like being back on whineseer.

If an army completed its objective in recovering the vital intelligence, assassinating an enemy general, or transmitting the location of enemy forces for the fleet in orbit, why would it not count as its sides victory? Sure, there is some luck of the draw, but if you couldn't manage to eke out more points despite blasting 90% of the opponents army, that's partly your fault, too.

And yes, the rumour has been that it was pulled for that idiotic reason, but nobody actually knows for sure. I doubt they would pull Specialist Games because they thought it was cannibalizing sales - if it was doing better, it would've received more attention. I'll have to ask you for an actual source, as the amount of bull that comes out surrounding GW means that anything said about them without a reliable source is about as reliable as BOLS or someone claiming that the next wave is confirmed to be Gunboats.

And, you are complaining about whineseer, but I'm not the one whining...

@CrazyTerran Ultimately then, please continue to enjoy the game. I still personally think you are deluded, but I've been the GW apologist more than once in the past too. Willing to bet Hobo has also.

Understand though that i've seen the editions. I am agreeing the cheese was also there. I think that formations is the worst thing that could have happened. Also, still play killteam.

Now. I will be fair and point out that fan favourite Inquisitor has something in common with AoS. No, not sh*tty models, the models were awesome. No. There were 0 point costs and people had to DM and self moderate.

For the record, I love 28mm inquisitor.

Inquisitor needs to make a comeback.

Unrelated anecdote. In my black crusade on dawn of war retribution I pressed "blood rage" on my Khorne Chaos Dreadnaught, next to a load of world eater berzerkers without realizing the full implications.

10/10. would murder my own team again.

40k right now relies a lot on going first and not getting seized on.

Fixed that for you

One-shotting half of enemy force is the state of things in 40k

Going second wins games not first.

This is a statement from someone who doesn't know the game.

The best scenario is to null deploy and go second so you go last and can compete objectives.

In X-wing yes

in 40k nope. When you both require that_filthy_invisibility being cast, or you suddenly remember that 90% of armies have super-devastating across-the-table weapons

All of the sudden you can lose half of your force because DERP, enemy has first turn, sucks to be you!

Null deploy? Possible only for filthy space marines who can come out of reserves on turn 1

ha-ha.

Yeah, even I admit my drop pod null deploy is cheap.

But invisibility is worse. F^#K invisibility.

Forge world chapter tactics from 5th to 7th is cool. I play Raptors and Crimson fists, with a bit of IMPERIAL GUARD!

I also have probably 2000 in chaos.

I have a full chaos battlefleet too.

And Ork battlefleet.

and Imperial battlefleet, with a retribution class battleship at it's head, because i know i'mma gonna be facing eldar...

... and a forge world Grey Knight Strike cruiser. because sexy.

No your the one playing apologist.

I don't think you appreciate how many of us on these forums are ex 40k players, how badly GW has hurt us with its recent decisions, how much we hate seeing a universe we loved being ruined by clueless idiots that run the company now.

Kirby is only concerned with padding his bank account gw is paying out high dividends instead of reinvesting into the company because he's the biggest share holder he's paying himself more than a million each time.

He's giving his wife 4 million to make the websites worse, people who do that for a living say it should cost 200k max.

And every time you think they can't possibly do something to make you hate them any more they find a way.

The only hope for 40k is for GW to go bust and someone else to grab the ip.

Yeah, that sounds like the ire of someone who has apologized for GW a few too many times and has just kinda given up.

I know it well.

I know that in my neighborhood, one store invested litterally thousands of dollars in Warhammer 40k terrain (very nice buildings and such)... and now barely anyone ever use them (at least on the nights that we're there). On the other hand, he barely had to purchase a few wooden planks to help make his tables wider and there you go, you are now X-Wing compatible and the players bring their own maps.

I'm not even sure I want to know how that feels like from the store owner's point of view.

40K is a horribly and unnecessarily bloated game, with random extras thrown in on a clear for-profit basis rather than with the intention of improving the game for the players.

It works well if you play it with someone you know, on the understanding that it is a casual game where you should both take balanced lists that don't include flyers, superheavies, unbound etc.. I wouldn't play it under any other circumstances.

What 40K needs, is a rule set where the primary focus is to make a good, clean game and let the profit come from people actually wanting to play the game because it's great, rather than the primary focus being how to maximise short term profit by changing rules to encourage purchases from WAAC gamers.

40k right now relies a lot on going first and not getting seized on.

Fixed that for you

One-shotting half of enemy force is the state of things in 40k

Going second wins games not first.

This is a statement from someone who doesn't know the game.

The best scenario is to null deploy and go second so you go last and can compete objectives.

In X-wing yes

in 40k nope. When you both require that_filthy_invisibility being cast, or you suddenly remember that 90% of armies have super-devastating across-the-table weapons

All of the sudden you can lose half of your force because DERP, enemy has first turn, sucks to be you!

Null deploy? Possible only for filthy space marines who can come out of reserves on turn 1

ha-ha.

If you are having a problem where your army is being decimated on the first turn by your opponent's shooting, then the problem you are having is not with the game, but how you are playing it. On a 6x4 table, you need to have around 8 terrain pieces of decent size, with 2 or 3 of those being solid enough to block line of sight. If you are not doing that, then it's your own **** fault for being shot off the board. It's not even that hard to make terrain that blocks LoS.

As for the comments that AoS is a failure, I couldn't agree more from a business standpoint. The rules are not great, but my local independent store had his fantasy sales increase by a wide margin after AoS was released, and my local Warhammer store can't keep it on the shelves. He quite literally sells out of his stock of the starter set every week. Like clockwork.

The rules are actually the least of my issues with AoS.

I kind of like the freedom there. There is some silliness sure but making your own formation/army I can see working.

I even liked the end times run up and advancing the plot. 40K can learn something here!

I loathe the models

Pretense of balance is just gone (not 100% sure if this is a bad thing or not).

I was never that emotionally involved with fantasy, not like I was with 40k so the AoS hit hurt me less than many.

I love how none of the current apologists are retorting anything regarding invisibility spam, formations, crooked allies etc.

Some things are just indefensible, eh?

40k right now relies a lot on going first and not getting seized on.

Fixed that for you

One-shotting half of enemy force is the state of things in 40k

Going second wins games not first.

This is a statement from someone who doesn't know the game.

The best scenario is to null deploy and go second so you go last and can compete objectives.

In X-wing yes

in 40k nope. When you both require that_filthy_invisibility being cast, or you suddenly remember that 90% of armies have super-devastating across-the-table weapons

All of the sudden you can lose half of your force because DERP, enemy has first turn, sucks to be you!

Null deploy? Possible only for filthy space marines who can come out of reserves on turn 1

ha-ha.

If you are having a problem where your army is being decimated on the first turn by your opponent's shooting, then the problem you are having is not with the game, but how you are playing it. On a 6x4 table, you need to have around 8 terrain pieces of decent size, with 2 or 3 of those being solid enough to block line of sight. If you are not doing that, then it's your own **** fault for being shot off the board. It's not even that hard to make terrain that blocks LoS.

There is only so much you can hide between the 1 or 2 pieces of LOS-blocking terrain that are in your deployment area (if you have 3 on the whole table, it would be absurd to assume all will be in your deployment area), especially when it comes to stuff that's larger than regular infantry (vehicles, MCs, knights etc).Going second vs a shooty army, like Tau or Eldar will see a decent chunk of your army obliterated before the game even started.

Speaking of Eldar. Jetbikes.

"Oh hey, yeah these superfast things that are better than space marines in every way and yet cheaper... let's sell some more" <next codex, even better and cheaper>.

To the current GW Defenders/Apologists. It's not as if we haven't played. We've probably apologized and defended GW for a previous generation or two.

We are bitter for the reasons Hobo has outlined.

We probably still love the IPs, and have some strong nostalgia going on.

Speaking of Eldar. Jetbikes.

"Oh hey, yeah these superfast things that are better than space marines in every way and yet cheaper... let's sell some more" <next codex, even better and cheaper>.

To the current GW Defenders/Apologists. It's not as if we haven't played. We've probably apologized and defended GW for a previous generation or two.

We are bitter for the reasons Hobo has outlined.

We probably still love the IPs, and have some strong nostalgia going on.

Yep i too was once a happy little fanboy i don't deny it, but we all have our breaking point when you just can't ignore the truth anymore.

AoS was a big wake up call for alot of people, for others it was 7th edition of 40K.

If they AoSify 40k then GW's last remaining earner will be gone and the companies dead because AoS and the Hobbit aint keeping the lights on.

I still consider myself a 40K fanboy. But 7th was my breaking point for mainline.

Video games, specialist games, low point and killteam games. Absolutely.

I supported my wife's cosplaying as a freaking hereticus inquisitor.

I shamelessly love the IP.

But the 40k mainline game. Yeah that's mortally wounded if not dead to me.

I for one, enjoy Age of Sigmar. But I didn't like original Fantasy. Personally I was hoping they would bring that style to 40k because that game is crap too. And I'm sitting ona large Tau army with nothing to do with it.

Whatever, still major props to FFG.