Yep that's what they did in the 90`s on the UK which is why we have so few games stores over here.

You guys do have GW stores coming out the butt though.

Which are either empty or closed thanks to the idiotic one man store model.

And urgh the pressure selling just makes you want to punch people.

Okay, the weird thing about the models for me is that they're actually quite cheap... for other purposes. I'm finishing off my D&D miniatures collection and, as an example, I can buy individual lizardmen from other sources for $3 (reaper bones) to $6+ (metal) or 20 Lizardman Saurus NIB for around $30, or $1.50 apiece - and much cheaper than THAT if I find a good eBay auction. My Drow are a bunch of the sea pirate Dark Elves with the dragonskin cloaks - cloaks, hand crossbows, wicked-looking blades? A post about a Hordes force talked about buying a box of Glade Riders for his force because it was a third of the cost of buying them in metal (at the time).

The problem is that GW games push quantity, so much quantity, that you get buried under plastic and prices. No bueno. They have no vision, no forward thinking, everything is driven by quarterly profits instead of planning for sustainably existing ten, fifteen, twenty years down the road.

And that's why they're an evil corporation. Not on the same scale as say Exxon for knowing that global warming existed in 1981 and spending the next thirty years throwing as much money as they could to hide the data and discredit anyone who spoke up about it, but the foundation of what makes an corporate entity evil is there: focus on today and to hell with tomorrow.

Yep that's what they did in the 90`s on the UK which is why we have so few games stores over here.

You guys do have GW stores coming out the butt though.

Which is, quite frankly, where they belong.

What GW has been doing in the past decade was monetizing their near-monopoly position, fan-base and various other competitive advantages.

Other than plastic miniatures/CAD design, they have badly failed to innovate and have shrunk a great hobby on so many levels. This all resulted in a shrinking player base, has already killed fantasy and will soon destroy 40k.

This company DESERVES to go bankrupt or get bought out for its IP. Its management is clearly clueless.

People don't really think too much about saturation.

The reality is that 40K is a license that is nearing its thirtieth birthday. There are so many 40K models out there, GW gets killed in resale. Ever notice how you can buy large lots of 40K figures on EBay from a vast assortment of auctions, but there might be 3-4 pages, max, of auctions for X-Wing stuff, and most of it is just split components rather than second-hand product? Yeah, X-Wing is only a few years old. Given how long the average player plays these games before getting out the hobby, 40K is probably five or six (or more) generations of players into its history, whereas X-Wing is still basically in its first.

Part of GW's problem is the barrier to entry being so high. I believe their pricing model is not structured to bring in new players, and it isn't cognizant of the increasing competition in the space. 40K, at this point in time, was inevitably going to shrink, so people shouldn't overthink GW's "decline". There is just so much more infrastructure for gaming components now, especially with Chinese manufacturers. The sheer number of products in the space is staggering now, and all of that comes out of a finite share of wallet among gaming consumers. They need new players, and to get new players, they need to compete for them now.

But the product line is also just at a very, very difficult point in its life cycle. Lots of competition, lots of second-hand models. GW has obviously been struggling to innovate, but the company is far from done. Their yearly revenue and profits are still strong and they own their IP. I just think if they lowered their prices, they'd be able to compete a lot more on price, given the economy of scale they enjoy over smaller competitors.

The game, though, it's screwed. Several years ago, there were just too many desperation moves, dragging flyers and superheavies and then knights and titans into the "core" game, trying to find new products that their customers didn't already have too many of, like with tanks and infantry and such. They sorely need to re-silo the game into "skirmish", "regular" and "Apocalypse", so that the entry into the game isn't so daunting to new players, even if they can get past the price. But they seem to have gone all-in on the "F' it! Bring everything" ruleset.

Trying to compare it to X-Wing is silly though. X-Wing has an intrinsic advantage of an easily recognized license, and it is both simple and accessible. Everyone is a space ship, and you use 3-8 models per side. It has no breadth or depth to it. That's not a criticism by any means. It's a well made game. But its mechanics are very basic compared to a game like 40K because it's not trying to accomplish nearly as much as 40K. X-Wing has one combat mechanic, and one movement mechanic, etc.

Yep that's what they did in the 90`s on the UK which is why we have so few games stores over here.

You guys do have GW stores coming out the butt though.

Which are either empty or closed thanks to the idiotic one man store model.

And urgh the pressure selling just makes you want to punch people.

Same happened in Ireland. Most of them have since gone to the one-man-model. I used to play, but got out of it long ago, as I seen what was coming. I think my last big purchase in a store was picking up an outrageously large Eldar Epic army when they decided to offload the old "specialist" games from the stock room, to make room for 40k 5th.

I sometimes took the time to get armour pieces for modification. Motorising and lighting up tanks, and the odd emplacement from the old Imperial Armour sets. My last ever purchase was the Monolith, which I managed to get "activated" using magnets and an ardruino. That was arguably the worst sales experience I've ever had. The guy spent about 20 minutes trying to convince me to buy about €300 worth of Necron units to go with the Monolith, despite me telling him I have zero interest in playing anymore. There's a hard sell, and then there's the GW model of almost mugging you with consent.

So whe Tau came out again here recenlty, I put together a competitive list to run at tourneys and priced it. Nearly $800 to build it, paint it and run it at 1850.

I got back out and came back to Xwing. I can pay half that price and come out with every wave and every Xwing model including reserving my wave 8 for that price. Not only that, I don't have the time to dedicate 3-4 hours for just one game where with Xwing you can pull in 2 to 3.

I haven't played yet. I plan on getting an official demo game in and I have watched a ton of battle reps. I'm gonna go slow and go ships and then slowly add upogrades and mods. I think that's best.

SO anyone in the Southwest OH Northern KY area that wants to meet up for me and demo me a game or 2, I'd be greatfuly. I work in Florance and live in Harrison OH

Something to consider in regards to GW.

Back in the '90s and early 2000s, GW had a virtual monopoly in the field of miniature wargames. There were occasional attempts at competition. But they never really went anywhere. Then GW got aggressive about sabotaging themselves, they started driving away their fans, game design was directed by suits, alienating their talent, stores started looking for other things to carry to stay open. So all the people who got fed up with GW started to do what gamers do, they started to create the games they wanted to play.

We are basically living in a golden age of miniature wargames and board game, with more really good games than we can possibly play, and it is not a stretch to suggest that a large part of it is because GW so grossly mismanaged their market that they have created the competition that is filling the void left by their slow, gradual (and well justified) collapse.

Ever notice how you can buy large lots of 40K figures on EBay from a vast assortment of auctions,

But that is BECAUSE of GWs "churn and burn" sales philosophy. Gamers are very loyal, if GW supported their community, made good games with decent rules, their players would keep their armies for decades, gradually growing them every year, and starting new ones. Instead, GW decided that the only people buying their models were teenage boys who then got out of the game a few years later. Their entire sales model operates under the assumption that someone buying their product today is not going to be buying their product 3 years from now, so they don't focus ANY resources on retention of quality, it is ALL "sell the latest thing to the kids and then get the next kid in the door". That's why there are so many second hand GW stuff available, GW doesn't provide any reason to keep it.

Ever notice how you can buy large lots of 40K figures on EBay from a vast assortment of auctions,

But that is BECAUSE of GWs "churn and burn" sales philosophy.

And not to do with the fact that Games Workshop has been selling around $125M every year in product for well over a decade, and a thirty-year product history?

Games Workshop has some mismanagement issues, sure. But even the best game in the world will eventually reach a point of market saturation. Give X-Wing a few more years at this rate, and you'll be picking up peoples' collections at half retail or less on E-Bay. You can already do pretty well. The reality is that gamers come and gamers go. There have just been a lot more 40K gamers than anything else.

Okay, the weird thing about the models for me is that they're actually quite cheap... for other purposes. I'm finishing off my D&D miniatures collection and, as an example, I can buy individual lizardmen from other sources for $3 (reaper bones) to $6+ (metal) or 20 Lizardman Saurus NIB for around $30, or $1.50 apiece - and much cheaper than THAT if I find a good eBay auction. My Drow are a bunch of the sea pirate Dark Elves with the dragonskin cloaks - cloaks, hand crossbows, wicked-looking blades? A post about a Hordes force talked about buying a box of Glade Riders for his force because it was a third of the cost of buying them in metal (at the time).

The problem is that GW games push quantity, so much quantity, that you get buried under plastic and prices. No bueno. They have no vision, no forward thinking, everything is driven by quarterly profits instead of planning for sustainably existing ten, fifteen, twenty years down the road.

And that's why they're an evil corporation. Not on the same scale as say Exxon for knowing that global warming existed in 1981 and spending the next thirty years throwing as much money as they could to hide the data and discredit anyone who spoke up about it, but the foundation of what makes an corporate entity evil is there: focus on today and to hell with tomorrow.

good thing fantasy doesnt exist any more and age of sigmar brought prices in line with "proper" miniatures. only $60 for 5 fat c-3p0s with hammers

When the re-release of Space Hulk came out last year, there was a big push from people to pick it up. Even people like me, who'd been out of it for so long, were really looking forward to it. It was a great game, and it felt like the time was right to bring it back into production.
That said, I don't think anyone expected the outrageous price tag that was on it. When I questioned that, I was told it was because the value of the models in the box would exceed the cost of the game if it was sold at a lower (read: reasonable) price. In other words, the cost of a handful of Terminators and Genestealers was tacked on to the cost of the game as a forced add on, in case anyone would attempt to buy the game for the models.

On closer inspection of the game in the shop, I realised that literally nothing had changed from the original. Now, that can be a good thing: the original game was excellent in all aspects. In this case, however, it was kind of con. They wanted €100 for a game I had in my loft. The artwork had been updated to be grimier, in keeping with the theme, but that was about it. It was the same unpainted, plastic models. The same number of rooms/corridor cardboards. Even the book was a direct reprint, with no new missions or extra layouts.

This was pretty much when I resolved to never even let nostalgia tempt me into a physical GW purchase again. They're not even trying anymore. They're just scraping the bottom of an empty barrel until they see daylight.

The last space hulk release was identical to the 2009 release but they added a few new missions and charged £15 more for it, GW in a nut shell.

Ah, the sweet, sweet smell of Games Workshop burning to the ground.

My 20 000 points of lovingly painted fantasy models cry out for vengeance every time I pass my miniature cabinet.

Use those Fantasy miniatures on Kings Of War, Its a great game really balanced, but does not do the crazy over the top stuff that Warhammer fantasy did. It reminds me of X-wing, because manuvering matters a lot.

Ah, the sweet, sweet smell of Games Workshop burning to the ground.

My 20 000 points of lovingly painted fantasy models cry out for vengeance every time I pass my miniature cabinet.

Use those Fantasy miniatures on Kings Of War, Its a great game really balanced, but does not do the crazy over the top stuff that Warhammer fantasy did. It reminds me of X-wing, because manuvering matters a lot.

And not only that, KoW was designed by people who were kicked out of GW for not being yes-men. You might recognize one or two names, like Alessio Cavatore, if you've been giving GW money for long enough. Oh, nd the basic rules are free, and the actual game book with EVERY list is under

But right now there are SO MANY GAMES out there that it's hard to convince people to try new ones. Malifaux, Warmahordes, X-Wing come to mind, which makes it real hard to convince folks to try Battletech's Alpha Strike.

It's good that a proper game designed to play well is taking the top spot.

Perhaps GW will someday take that to heart. Until then, I won't miss them. I have other games to play.

That being said, if this increase happened over the last 5 years, that is crazy.

That.

When I played 40K 10 years ago, a codex was £10 ($17ish?). Last I checked they were £30.

But they are all in hardback now. So you know, worth it. Totally.

When I started playing in 2000, the codex cost $30cdn, was soft cover, had very little rules, and virtually no fluff or background. Then around the 2006 to 2008 mark, they increased to $45 and switched to the Fantasy format: soft cover, black and white, larger number of rules, considerably more fluff. 2012 to present they moved to the current format: hard cover (so more durable), full colour, more rules, all of the fluff from every previous generation plus some new stuff. Price jumped to $60. Now, some of the larger codex like Space Marines cost $75, but that is because they are twice as thick as others. A considerable sum for a book, but when you take into account the changes that have been made over the years, worth the price.

I've seen battle reports of 40k games and the game seems appealing to me, but the extreme cost, time, and skill needed to paint them well and purchase them is just too much. If it coated like, half the amount it currently does I could see myself getting into it.

It's injection molded plastic. They only have to make the molds once.

Without turn it this I to a 40k hate thread, it isn't even the cos lt that puts me off, it's the constant pee-peeing around with the rules. When I bought sixth edition (prob about £150 in source material; rulebook, codexes ect) I managed to get ten games in before they released the next edition, complete with all new rule books and codexes. That's about the point I found x-wings rules were available FOR FREE online. I can't believe that one company could expect me to pay so much per year for rules when another is happy to give them to me for free!! Since that day, I haven't even picked up a 40k model, and I'm guessing I am not the only one who's had enough of GE policies, hence the (long overdue) dethroning of the GW empire

You are using the change from 6th to 7th as your excuse for being upset at GW? Yeah, it sucks that 6th edition only lasted two years, but the change needed to happen. 6th edition was the worst edition they had written as there were so many things wrong with the core rules. Rules just did not work together. If you look at the history of the previous editions, GW normally takes between 4 and 6 years to release a new edition.

People on this site might think that this is the beginning of the dethroning of the GW Empire, but I don't believe that to be true. 40k has had one major release since the spring, and that was the Tau. The primary drive from GW since the spring has actually been towards Age of Sigmar, so it makes sense that 40ks numbers are down. How many new waves have come out for X-wing since the spring? 2? 3? I can almost guarantee that if / when GW swings their focus back to 40k, you will see it back on top as the highest selling game.

Source.

And armada is dubious man. That game? Needs effingly communication!!!!

I love GW hate threads! It still amazes me that a company that makes little plastic toys for a game of fantasy battles can be as despised as Comcast, Goldman Sachs, Halliburton, and Time Warner, but it just goes to show what lengths GW has gone to over the past decade to ****, pillage, and destroy their own fanbase. It's not JUST that their games have little semblance of balance, or the insane price points. It's the constant, unconscionable price hikes (like I mentioned above, a plastic Cadian used to run you about a dollar - now it's almost $3). It's the transformation of White Dwarf and the GW website from a useful resource for modeling tips and game tactics into pure product-hawking. It's the ruthlessness with which any part of the GW machine that doesn't produce profits is swiftly amputated (RIP Battlefleet Gothic, Mordheim, Necromunda, Blood Bowl...hey, those are like, all of GW's best games!).

The worst. The absolute worst.

I still think Konami did more to spit in the faces of their customers. Seriously how do they avoid a lawsuit is beyond me.

People on this site might think that this is the beginning of the dethroning of the GW Empire,

No, the beginning was years ago. It's just the effects are now accelerating so that they are more visible.

ICv2's "Internal Correspondence" #89 is out (the ones that does the "top 5 non-collectible miniatures games" list for US retailers) and the top five list is now:

1. X-Wing

2. 40k

3. Armada

4. Warmachine

5. Attack Wing

If right that's pretty great for ffg and down right terrible for GW.

Don't know what to think of that list

How many people still play Attack Wing? isn't the game meant to be un fixable? and has little player base?

Armada is AWESOME. I think it should be number 2 but how much could they have really sold with only 2 waves to make it number 3?

People still play 40K? why? don't they know about X wing and Armada?

X wing is right where it should be

What I would really like to know is there another game system out there that would be considered number 6?

There was something to be said when 40k was the only game in town.

Nowadays, everyone is playing something different.

If 40k were pre-painted, there's a chance I'd play it again.

40k just sucks rules-wise

because GW makes minis, not the game system. The game is just a way of forcing

MOAR BRILLIANT MINIATURES™ sale

And as WFB 9th edition is formed, we can only state that players also suck at game design :C

Yep that's what they did in the 90`s on the UK which is why we have so few games stores over here.

You guys do have GW stores coming out the butt though.

Which are either empty or closed thanks to the idiotic one man store model.

And urgh the pressure selling just makes you want to punch people.

The look of sad desperation from the manager when you go in. Be a decent human being and talk to them and watch as they really want tell how miserable their job is and how much being forced to be part accountant and part children's entertainer is a terrible life to live.

And watch how guarded they are around criticism of GW. The company instils fear like nothing really should. They must threaten the use of 'secret customers'. The staff are either to scared to be honest about the crap they have to sell or have the stepford smiler thing on.

We need some WWF style charity, "save our GW clown managers". lol.

X-Wing is easier to access, easier to build a playable squadron and doesn't require much effort with models.

You are getting a complete set with everything available to use after less than 15 minutes of assembling.

Rules are also very simple, yet the game is usually unpredictable. Great game for small money.

As a long time Warhammer Fantasy nerd, this news pleases me a great deal. What GW did to Fantasy was ruin a great gaming system, maybe they did the same to 40K.

As a collector and a player I have to say that 40k has never been so diverse and interesting (except Chaos Space Marines) - chapter tactics, formations, Harlequins, Mechanicum and now the Genestealer Cults.

On the other hand the tournaments - as far as I can say, I don't play in them - have never been worse: killer combos with complete disregard of background or fair play, unpainted armies, cheating is the norm. It is like it is run by powergamers.

Sadly I have seen some of those players starting playing X-Wing... I've met only one, but had to argue more in a single game than for the last 6 months. Very annoying and it is only the beginning.

Warhammer Fantasy was killed, but it was selling worse than a single box of tactical marines. The whole game. GW ruined it for sure and will pay the consequences.

I see that GW woke up a bit - specialist games are back and the Horus Heresy is released in plastic.

We will see where it goes.

Ever notice how you can buy large lots of 40K figures on EBay from a vast assortment of auctions,

But that is BECAUSE of GWs "churn and burn" sales philosophy. Gamers are very loyal, if GW supported their community, made good games with decent rules, their players would keep their armies for decades, gradually growing them every year, and starting new ones. Instead, GW decided that the only people buying their models were teenage boys who then got out of the game a few years later. Their entire sales model operates under the assumption that someone buying their product today is not going to be buying their product 3 years from now, so they don't focus ANY resources on retention of quality, it is ALL "sell the latest thing to the kids and then get the next kid in the door". That's why there are so many second hand GW stuff available, GW doesn't provide any reason to keep it.

In the early 90's I had no job and very little cash. But I had enough money through pocket money/income support to spend £5 every couple of weeks on 40k. And this got me an Eldar squad of some kind, in metal and complete. With little cash to speak of I put together 2k points of Eldar over about a year.

In today's money that would be impossible. But wait! You rightly claim that inflation is a thing and those prices from 1993 are unreasonable to be expected in 2016. Also you state as a 40 something I am not their target demographic.

But this is where they are failing, my money should be as desired as anyone's. And given right now I could easily afford their insane prices means my money would be easier to get. But I demand quality and I demand a company that at least pays lip service to their customers. And doesn't repeatedly lie to their player base (GW demonstrably lie, a lot).

And on top of that my children (not that I have any, but that's not the point) would probably be the target demographic. Except I am their (hypothetical) father. I am a miniature/gamer/painter with 30 plus years of experience. There is no way no child of mine would play GW stuff, when there is so much else out there. And I still have 1000's and 1000's of points if GW stuff, and much it of still boxed and unpainted. There is no justification to spend any money at GW and so much lovely choice out there and so many companies worthy of my time and cash.

My pretend child would love XWing. If not, I would eBay him for one that did.