That being said, if this increase happened over the last 5 years, that is crazy.

That.

When I played 40K 10 years ago, a codex was £10 ($17ish?). Last I checked they were £30.

In Australia the last Fantasy Codex was $80 a few years ago, and they wonder why people try to get them in PDF from he net. This Book will change every 2-5 years too, depending on whats the flavour of the release is.

That is IN-SANE! Maybe I have been spoiled by FFG, but rules should be "free" and exist to get a player excited about the game and go buy the physical game components. I do understand that a lot of time, energy, and money goes into developing the game rules but such a steep cost to just get rules makes a game stagnant and unable to react to unintended rule anomalies quickly. Phantom nerf for example. Paying that much for something that should be free to download from the manufacturer website is a bridge too far for me.

It is akin to buying a computer program then having to buy patches to fix bugs. No a very customer-friendly business model.

GW's gotten worse in that regard. Used to be rules updates and chapter approved cool stuff in white dwarf.

Now it's pay for fairly low quality (except for cypher) dataslates.

I love GW hate threads! It still amazes me that a company that makes little plastic toys for a game of fantasy battles can be as despised as Comcast, Goldman Sachs, Halliburton, and Time Warner, but it just goes to show what lengths GW has gone to over the past decade to ****, pillage, and destroy their own fanbase. It's not JUST that their games have little semblance of balance, or the insane price points. It's the constant, unconscionable price hikes (like I mentioned above, a plastic Cadian used to run you about a dollar - now it's almost $3). It's the transformation of White Dwarf and the GW website from a useful resource for modeling tips and game tactics into pure product-hawking. It's the ruthlessness with which any part of the GW machine that doesn't produce profits is swiftly amputated (RIP Battlefleet Gothic, Mordheim, Necromunda, Blood Bowl...hey, those are like, all of GW's best games!).

The worst. The absolute worst.

This is probably why they're resurrecting Blood Bowl, Battlefleet Gothic, Epic and Necromunda as "Specialist games". Dropping their best games has hurt them and man cannot live on 40K alone. I'm looking forwards to Blood Bowl coming back, sort of, I'm a little concerned for the price points but yeah, it's the official return of Blood Bowl

GW still has a long way to fall.

The ICv2 reports only track independent retailers in the US and do not reflect sales at GW stores or through GW's website. It's a partial glimpse of the market, not the whole story. It's still an interesting metric to look at year after year to see trends. GW has been in decline for a while and this just more confirmation. They're still quite profitable having slashed costs dramatically in the past couple of years.

GW has always said it was a model company after it went public, but it did make an effort at making worthwhile games to use the miniatures with. More recently that has changed and they have bet heavily on collectors, believing (according to a financial analyst who attended the annual investor meeting) that only 20% of their customers actually play the games. It hasn't really worked out as they intended.

It's good that a proper game designed to play well is taking the top spot.

This is probably why they're resurrecting Blood Bowl, Battlefleet Gothic, Epic and Necromunda as "Specialist games". Dropping their best games has hurt them and man cannot live on 40K alone. I'm looking forwards to Blood Bowl coming back, sort of, I'm a little concerned for the price points but yeah, it's the official return of Blood Bowl

I think it's probably more to do with how well FFG etc are doing with the core box set > expansion philosophy. The GW "hobby" is difficult for newcomers to get into, but anyone can pick up a $30 X-Wing starter set and go from there.

Space Hulk remains the only GW product I'm likely to keep hold of, and it's an entirely self-contained game.

I would be interested in seeing a revival of Inquisitor, though - especially given how good GW's plastics are nowadays.

Deathwatch overkill is steep but looks like an updated space hulk.

Screenshot? Please?

Deathwatch overkill is steep but looks like an updated space hulk.

For anyone looking for a space hulk alternative DO NOT be fooled by the new AvP game. Nice models but man that game is janky as hell!

Deathwatch overkill is steep but looks like an updated space hulk.

For anyone looking for a space hulk alternative DO NOT be fooled by the new AvP game. Nice models but man that game is janky as hell!

Referring to DW:O or the actual AVP game?

Either way, please tell us more.

Zombicide is probably the best version of Space Hulk anyway.

I love GW hate threads! It still amazes me that a company that makes little plastic toys for a game of fantasy battles can be as despised as Comcast, Goldman Sachs, Halliburton, and Time Warner, but it just goes to show what lengths GW has gone to over the past decade to ****, pillage, and destroy their own fanbase. It's not JUST that their games have little semblance of balance, or the insane price points. It's the constant, unconscionable price hikes (like I mentioned above, a plastic Cadian used to run you about a dollar - now it's almost $3). It's the transformation of White Dwarf and the GW website from a useful resource for modeling tips and game tactics into pure product-hawking. It's the ruthlessness with which any part of the GW machine that doesn't produce profits is swiftly amputated (RIP Battlefleet Gothic, Mordheim, Necromunda, Blood Bowl...hey, those are like, all of GW's best games!).

The worst. The absolute worst.

GW

PS8

Ruthlessness

Concussive Codex missile

Pocket mangler

Mercenary CEO

Failcast saboteur

AoStimms

Money control system

Auto de-trusters

I stopped playing 40K right about the time X-Wing hit the scene and boy, am I glad I did. 40K, and GW in general, has gotten too expensive for what you get. I just couldn't justify the time and money required to field a proper force on the table. I still do play miniature wargames other than X-Wing. I've gotten into Bolt Action. Being a WW2 history buff, I'm currently assembling a 1000 point Uncle Sam's Misguided Children (USMC) force for play. It cost me less than $200 for the rules, army book and box set, much less than what you'd pay for an equivalent 40k force.

You guys want ANOTHER reason to hate GW other than bad rules, too expensive models, and hating their own fanbase? Why didn't you ask sooner!

They despise independent stores and actively work to destroy them.

Specifically, they regard indies as competition, and their business plan was for many years:

1) Sell to an indie and let it build up a customer base for GW product (usually 40k)

2) When sales reached a certain point, move a GW store into that area

3) Do their best to drive the indie out of business by shipping new material late and undershipping them, all the while holding up the new GW store as the "best place to get the newest stuff"

4) Laugh as the indie either divested itself of GW product or closed its doors

5) Cry as the local gaming community stopped playing GW games and they had to close the GW store, usually some years later.

I witnessed this exact pattern repeat itself in Washington, in Florida, and in southern California from 2001-2006, so it wasn't some 'local phenomenon' but a business directive from a high level. I've got anecdotal reports from as far away as Italy and Germany that verify the exact same pattern.

So if you like your FLGS, you'll tell them to get rid of their GW product as soon as possible, and move to a company that actually LIKES them. A couple of guys are trying to get the new FLGS to carry GW product, and thank the Maker he isn't listening to them. Doesn't hurt that GW makes it hellaciously expensive to even START carrying their crap.

You guys want ANOTHER reason to hate GW other than bad rules, too expensive models, and hating their own fanbase? Why didn't you ask sooner!

...

This does not surprise me at all. Par for the course. Seriously, GW is the worst.

Hmm.

I never realized that Attack Wing was a non-collectible miniatures games.

GW has some great fiction built around their games...

Yep. Drachenfels, Gotrek & Felix, Orfeo, Genevieve, the Von Carsteins, Emperor Karl Franz...

...Marienburg, Kislev, Praag, Altdorf...

...Slaves to Darkness, The Lost & The Damned...

...oh wait. All gone, isn't it?

There is now way GW aren't looking at FFG with envy, simple rules that meld into a complex game. That is clearly what they were aiming for with AOS. Which would all be fine if they had achieved their goals or had any respect for the player base.

To destroy Warhammer/the Olde World is one thing, to replace it with a bunch of rules that are actually designed to be finished/comped by the customers? Unforgivable. We are used to pc games being released and then needing immediate patching. But GW released a product and expected US to patch it.

And on top of the laughable "rules" we have the new (IP friendly) miniatures. And speaking as someone who has played Fantasy since 1992, and have liked most of their models over that entire span of years...the new stuff is crap. Just utter rubbish.

I listen to the 'hammer podcasts still, and much is made of the quality of the kits in technical terms. Fine, maybe GW are technical genius' with regard to hiding mild lines and such. But all the technical wizardry in the world doesn't hide simple ugly models.

Obviously that's a subjective thing, but still. 30 years of being a fan and then not liking a single model. Not one. Says something I think.

Hmm.

I never realized that Attack Wing was a non-collectible miniatures games.

That's because it works really hard to try and port over the worst aspects of collectible games to the non-collectible format.

40K has been garbage since 5th (and was never that great of a rules set in any addition, frankly) and what they did to fantasy was an abomination. GW's rules are terrible, their model quality has slipped despite ASTRONOMICAL price increases, and they do everything and anything to destroy competition as well as anything but a niche market. How they are still in business is mind boggling. Better run, less offensive companies have shuttered much faster. I guess that just speaks to how loved the IPs really are. I will always have love for the 40K and Warhammer fantasy universes, but there is literally nothing GW could ever do to win me back as a customer.

There is a certain spectacle that's hard to top in high model count games. For my money, Warmachine gives me that thrill while remaining a solid game in its own right, but GW's stuff is certainly another level of spectacle. When I see 40k I can't help but feel the game got a little focused on vehicles at a scale too large to make them interesting though. I often seen huge lines of tanks with nowhere to go instead of a heavy troop focus with a few large support vehicles to break things up. I've never gotten the impression anyone is every really happy with the army composition in the game though, despite having fairly specific mandates in the rules.

I've seen battle reports of 40k games and the game seems appealing to me, but the extreme cost, time, and skill needed to paint them well and purchase them is just too much. If it coated like, half the amount it currently does I could see myself getting into it.

It's injection molded plastic. They only have to make the molds once.

Without turn it this I to a 40k hate thread, it isn't even the cos lt that puts me off, it's the constant pee-peeing around with the rules. When I bought sixth edition (prob about £150 in source material; rulebook, codexes ect) I managed to get ten games in before they released the next edition, complete with all new rule books and codexes. That's about the point I found x-wings rules were available FOR FREE online. I can't believe that one company could expect me to pay so much per year for rules when another is happy to give them to me for free!! Since that day, I haven't even picked up a 40k model, and I'm guessing I am not the only one who's had enough of GE policies, hence the (long overdue) dethroning of the GW empire

Trying to turn this back into a GW hate thread... Kidding, they are doing a well enough job themselves, my biggest gripe, along with Rau is that the time released between army codexes/lists was sometimes years. You could have the next best thing in 40K...I have to make do with the army I had collected/painted and wait vainfully for a new codex. Plus it turned from a game of tactics to a game of throwing dice and having as many models on the table as possible... I hate GW if you weren't sure...

even at half the price most gw models would feel overcosted to me. if you expect me to do most of the work (building, painting, etc.) myself, you dont get to charge me $80 for a small ugly plastic box inside a brightly colored cardboard box, that will be invalidated somehow in two years probably.

I first found GW at around White Dwarf 130 and spent many happy years buying their products and every WD every month.

I loved specialist games and had most armies for 40k and wfb. In some ways I will always be grateful to GW for being my method of escape when life was difficult for a large number of years.

However, things did change. WD became a sales catalogue instead of a gaming magazine and I stopped buying it when they changed format.

Before that, I stopped buying the army lists and codexes when their price doubled and stopped buying figures when a plastic command squad of 5 reached £15.00.

Many of the GW team that I respected also left the company.

Aos was the final straw, now I mostly feel the same way about GW as most posters here. I still play warmaster, epic (space marine) and necromunda however, but not as much as I play x wing.

You guys want ANOTHER reason to hate GW other than bad rules, too expensive models, and hating their own fanbase? Why didn't you ask sooner!

They despise independent stores and actively work to destroy them.

Specifically, they regard indies as competition, and their business plan was for many years:

1) Sell to an indie and let it build up a customer base for GW product (usually 40k)

2) When sales reached a certain point, move a GW store into that area

3) Do their best to drive the indie out of business by shipping new material late and undershipping them, all the while holding up the new GW store as the "best place to get the newest stuff"

4) Laugh as the indie either divested itself of GW product or closed its doors

5) Cry as the local gaming community stopped playing GW games and they had to close the GW store, usually some years later.

I witnessed this exact pattern repeat itself in Washington, in Florida, and in southern California from 2001-2006, so it wasn't some 'local phenomenon' but a business directive from a high level. I've got anecdotal reports from as far away as Italy and Germany that verify the exact same pattern.

So if you like your FLGS, you'll tell them to get rid of their GW product as soon as possible, and move to a company that actually LIKES them. A couple of guys are trying to get the new FLGS to carry GW product, and thank the Maker he isn't listening to them. Doesn't hurt that GW makes it hellaciously expensive to even START carrying their crap.

Yep that's what they did in the 90`s on the UK which is why we have so few games stores over here.

Yep that's what they did in the 90`s on the UK which is why we have so few games stores over here.

You guys do have GW stores coming out the butt though.

Very hard to consider without being able to view the information from the citation itself. But it is plausible, unfortunately I have no research project related to it so I could request that the library order it for me.

As for 40k well the trend was heading that way but this soon was alarming if valid. That means 40k sales must have plummeted and despite higher costs and losing customers they haven't dropped that much. 40k was very large so even the rapid growth of X-wing would not have surpassed it otherwise.

The cost of GW models is relative.

On the one hand, there are gamers like me, who would mainly buy models to push them across the table. For me they are overcosted. I'd be happy with worse quality, worse looks but cheaper models because given my lack of painting talent they will look bad once I'm done with them anyway.

On the other hand, there are modelers, people who actually spend the time and have the skill to make a model look good (that doesn't mean they don't play with the model afterward, just that they enjoy the painting part, unlike me, who sees painting and assembly as something I have to do, but rather I didn't). Most modelers I know feel GW models are great, and feel they are well worth the price comparative with the competition (Warmahordes, Infinity, FoW etc.)

What drove me away from 40k were 2 things: the rules (I find them beyond bad, all the fun I've had in 40k was despite of the rules, not because of them;) and GWs policies of using rules to drive sales (9/10 cases, when a new kit version of something appears, rules will be changed to make the load outs that are included in the new kit, but not in the old one, by far more desirable; see Missile Broadsides and Eldar Jetbikes with Scatterlasers for example), making entire armies irrelevant on the power scale (like Orks or Imperial Guard), or simply making codex changes that result in you having to rebuild most of your list to be competitive.