If you are in a Star Wars Armada tournament...

In March 2016...

And don't know how Demolisher works...

You are not allowed to be pissed off.

It's ridiculous to somehow classify holding someone to basic standards as somehow skirting the realm of sportsmanship to gain advantage over them. Players should be aware of the rules of the game, players should be cognizant of what's opposite of them. If they aren't they have every opportunity to ask on either subject.

Not a few posts back it was suggested that the referenced player was likely upset because they were surprised by the Demolisher, suprised in a game of near complete open information. That's just a silly idea. You have the ability to look at your opponents list, read your opponents cards, or even just ask your opponent "Hey, what does that do"; and it is somehow justified to be upset about being suprised? Man I really hope that person never plays a system that actually does have hidden information.

We are talking about adults here, or at the very least people within an adult setting. I have more respect for my opponents then to patronize them. They are an adult, or are acting as one, if they have a question they can ask anything they want. I'll explain every special ability/rules interaction in my list if they ask me to (provided it can be done in a timely fashion/is relevant) but it's unacceptable to suggest that not doing so without being prompted is some disservice to your opponent. I'm not going to insult the majority of the people I play against by patronizing them because of the rare player that can't be grown up enough to ask questions or accept the ramifications of not doing so.

You even use the word "kid" in your post because you're trying to absolve the referenced player of some level of personal responsibility. But actual kid or adult, you're playing a game in a public competitive setting, you need to act with a certain level of maturity. Which includes knowing the rules, being aware of what you are playing against, and asking questions if you aren't sure.

For me; still being new is one of the reasons I've not been to an Armada tourney yet (that and health problems ). I once made the terrible mistake of going to a 350pt Batman tourney after only playing 2 games at 150pts. My first opponent was clearly out for the win and it was a slaughter. I lost so badly and didn't even really learn any lessons as I had no idea what 90% of the models at the tourney did. Firefly took out half my list in turn 2 and I had no idea that was coming but them's the rules. Not my opponents fault I had no idea how brutal that model was.

I kept my smile though and played on all day, ended up dead last but won the wooden spoon and the best painted contest. There were other models clearly better painted than mine but I think the TO felt sorry for me and appreciated my sportsman like conduct so despite being murdered all day I won my entry fee back as in-store credit.

Whilst I found being slaughtered all day not that fun, I really appreciated the TO took note of my conduct and threw me a bone so I wouldn't hate the game and tournament scene. Frankly; I knew I wasn't going to do well and never got irked that I was being beaten by better, more experienced players. I expected it.

I had a terrible time at an x-wing tourney once. I took a list I'd got 2nd in a 20 man tourney with previously and got ruined. 3 of my 5 opponents made the effort to find me after the tournament had ended and said great to meet you, thanks for being a good sport and laugh. 1 of the other 2 wrote a blog post and refereed to our game as one of his favourite games of x-wing ever and my first opponent actually apologised for winning saying I should have had it but the dice gods just hated me. I guess this is a little different as I'm not new to X-wing tournies in the slightest. I'm just trying to demonstrate that taking that attitude of tantrum only serves to ostracise you from the other players and make the day less enjoyable for everyone.

So having been on the receiving end of a similar beating; he was way out of line arguing and throwing ships about. It's a bit selfish to take your own failings/unlucky dice out on other people. I know the old saying of "The games no fun when you know your losing." rings true but that's no reason for making things unpleasant for everyone around you. I think the OP handled it well but the only thing I'd have done differently was defer to the TO as opposed to other players. Still; I've no idea how big/busy the event was and how difficult for the TO to stay glued to that game would have been. Keep your cool, smile and the world appreciates it. Usually

I've had my share of wh40k competitive play, and as a general thought I think that the armada environment is so much better: I was even discussing it with some new guy on Vassal recently, and he said that the community seems to be made of men, not boys. While I completely agree and try my best to make my games as fun and enterataining as possible for both my opponent and me, when we're talking competitive, competitive it is: I read the rules, practiced the game and expect others to have done the same. If they don't, too bad, I'm not spoon feeding them, even less if they don't ask.

So, regarding the OP, I'd have called the TO for sure and have the obnoxious kid explained the rules by them, as I won't bother arguing over the obvious. Then I'd proceed to kick his balls with my shiny Demolisher, all with a sadic grin on my face. On the other hand IMO there's no reason not to be nice and friendly to a nice and friendly opponent who politely asks about the demolisher title and what it can do. This is to say, a lot of times ignorance in games is not a real "fault" as it can depend on your usual opponents and/or your local mini meta, but you gotta be humile and polite: if you aren't, don't expect me to be nice.

It's ridiculous to somehow classify holding someone to basic standards as somehow skirting the realm of sportsmanship to gain advantage over them. Players should be aware of the rules of the game, players should be cognizant of what's opposite of them. If they aren't they have every opportunity to ask on either subject.

Not a few posts back it was suggested that the referenced player was likely upset because they were surprised by the Demolisher, suprised in a game of near complete open information. That's just a silly idea. You have the ability to look at your opponents list, read your opponents cards, or even just ask your opponent "Hey, what does that do"; and it is somehow justified to be upset about being suprised? Man I really hope that person never plays a system that actually does have hidden information.

We are talking about adults here, or at the very least people within an adult setting. I have more respect for my opponents then to patronize them. They are an adult, or are acting as one, if they have a question they can ask anything they want. I'll explain every special ability/rules interaction in my list if they ask me to (provided it can be done in a timely fashion/is relevant) but it's unacceptable to suggest that not doing so without being prompted is some disservice to your opponent. I'm not going to insult the majority of the people I play against by patronizing them because of the rare player that can't be grown up enough to ask questions or accept the ramifications of not doing so.

You even use the word "kid" in your post because you're trying to absolve the referenced player of some level of personal responsibility. But actual kid or adult, you're playing a game in a public competitive setting, you need to act with a certain level of maturity. Which includes knowing the rules, being aware of what you are playing against, and asking questions if you aren't sure.

Not sure if some part of my post offended you somehow, or if the topic itself is that sensitive to some people, but I absolutely see no reason to up the tone. I merely made a suggestion that helped me to reduce mid-game arguments. Not because I would not be able to win those arguments most of the time, but because they ruin the fun for me - not only in SWA, but any tabletop.

I also stand to my statement that simply following the rules of an open list game does not constitute sportsmanship, as this is defined as showing courtesy towards other players. I agree that tourneys sometimes require you to drop that courtesy in order to achieve a victory, and as I stated before, I would take that into account before deciding on being a good sport or not.

It's dissapointing to see a lack of personal responsibility for ones self advocated in gaming. If you are going to play in a public setting, let alone in a tournanent, learn the rules of the game. Learn how to play the game, which includes being aware of what your opponents list does. Or at the very least don't act like a petulant child when you don't do either of those things, and low and behold your play suffers for it.

It is just astounding to see people defend the described behavior (whether the description accurate or not). The onus can not be on everyone else to ensure that one player not act out because he didn't do his own due diligence in either learning the rules or being aware of what his opponent brought to the table.

This is getting out of hands. Nobody tries to defend anything or blame anybody - its not a court, its a public forum for a toy game.

Play your games as you see fit and as the rules allow. If that means to limit sportmanship to the absolute minimum to gain some minor advantage and table a newcomer, please go ahead. That in return could however mean that you waste 2-3 hours of lifetime tabling a grumpy kid, as it happened to the OP.

Toy game? is that the get out clause caveat for the defense? Hmm them guys seem to be being serious...it's only a game guys!!!

You're right it is a game, it's a game that costs a lot of money, it is a game that people practice at to become better, it is a game that has tournaments to find out who is the best player, aka a competition, when I choose to partake in a competition and here is the very definition of the word for you :

Yes it matters, that is why there are pages of rules, and pages of errata and a TO to over see the competition, because although it is just a game, it is a competitive one, so please stop with the ridiculous attempts at disarming our statements with "it's just a game."

When you chose to take part in a competition, and I am your opponent, I will be polite, I will be well spoken, I will respond to attempts at humor, I will invite you to my side of the table to examine in depth my fleet, I will offer you my damage deck to shuffle and cut, and I will wish you the best of luck before the match begins, in all areas I will behave in a proper and appropriate manner, I will answer your questions, I will play by the rules, and I will be light hearted about it all.

What I will not do, is give you a run down on my fleets capabilities, I will not warn you that a certain ship, or combination could be devastating for you if you get caught by it, I will not point out where you would be best moving a ship to avoid something, I won't give you help and advice on playing your fleet, because it is a COMPETITION. I expect you to understand the game you are playing, because you chose to partake in this competition.

If it is a casual game, I will go out of my way to ensure you have the best information, and assistance possible while playing (if you need it) to ensure you enjoy yourself, and most of all learn from it all.

I hope this removes the need for anymore assertions on my lack of manners, or sportsmanship. And yes in case you hadn't guessed, I am sick of a discussion reaching a certain point then "it's only a game." gets thrown around, football is only a game, so is baseball, so is golf, poker, I could go on an on with a list of "just games" they become more than "just games" when Adults invest time and money and effort into them, when FFG design a world wide tournament, with prizes and elimination rounds to find out who the best player of Star Wars Armada is, means that adults are investing time, money and effort into it.

It's dissapointing to see a lack of personal responsibility for ones self advocated in gaming. If you are going to play in a public setting, let alone in a tournanent, learn the rules of the game. Learn how to play the game, which includes being aware of what your opponents list does. Or at the very least don't act like a petulant child when you don't do either of those things, and low and behold your play suffers for it.

It is just astounding to see people defend the described behavior (whether the description accurate or not). The onus can not be on everyone else to ensure that one player not act out because he didn't do his own due diligence in either learning the rules or being aware of what his opponent brought to the table.

This is getting out of hands. Nobody tries to defend anything or blame anybody - its not a court, its a public forum for a toy game.

Play your games as you see fit and as the rules allow. If that means to limit sportmanship to the absolute minimum to gain some minor advantage and table a newcomer, please go ahead. That in return could however mean that you waste 2-3 hours of lifetime tabling a grumpy kid, as it happened to the OP.

Toy game? is that the get out clause caveat for the defense? Hmm them guys seem to be being serious...it's only a game guys!!!

You're right it is a game, it's a game that costs a lot of money, it is a game that people practice at to become better, it is a game that has tournaments to find out who is the best player, aka a competition, when I choose to partake in a competition and here is the very definition of the word for you :

competition

kɒmpɪˈtɪʃ(ə)n/

noun

1. the activity or condition of striving to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others.

Yes it matters, that is why there are pages of rules, and pages of errata and a TO to over see the competition, because although it is just a game, it is a competitive one, so please stop with the ridiculous attempts at disarming our statements with "it's just a game."

When you chose to take part in a competition, and I am your opponent, I will be polite, I will be well spoken, I will respond to attempts at humor, I will invite you to my side of the table to examine in depth my fleet, I will offer you my damage deck to shuffle and cut, and I will wish you the best of luck before the match begins, in all areas I will behave in a proper and appropriate manner, I will answer your questions, I will play by the rules, and I will be light hearted about it all.

What I will not do, is give you a run down on my fleets capabilities, I will not warn you that a certain ship, or combination could be devastating for you if you get caught by it, I will not point out where you would be best moving a ship to avoid something, I won't give you help and advice on playing your fleet, because it is a COMPETITION. I expect you to understand the game you are playing, because you chose to partake in this competition.

If it is a casual game, I will go out of my way to ensure you have the best information, and assistance possible while playing (if you need it) to ensure you enjoy yourself, and most of all learn from it all.

I hope this removes the need for anymore assertions on my lack of manners, or sportsmanship. And yes in case you hadn't guessed, I am sick of a discussion reaching a certain point then "it's only a game." gets thrown around, football is only a game, so is baseball, so is golf, poker, I could go on an on with a list of "just games" they become more than "just games" when Adults invest time and money and effort into them, when FFG design a world wide tournament, with prizes and elimination rounds to find out who the best player of Star Wars Armada is, means that adults are investing time, money and effort into it.

Uhm...as someone who has occasionally posted the definition of words in other forums to make a point, I speak from personal experience. Your quoting the definition of competition to another player puts you dangerously close to becoming "that guy" in this discussion.

I don't think what we're talking about here is rules, or conduct, but how much empathy each of us has as a person. This is what is going to govern how you react and handle others.

I haven't read anything anywhere in this thread in which I saw a single comment you could take as "defending" this players conduct. I've seen a lot about how to handle it, and that has ranged from "kill him with kindness" to "f@#k him, he should have known better."

Everyone has their own personal level of empathy they feel for others, and players with high empathy are going to identify with their opponents no matter what their behavior. They aren't "justifying" it.

Sure, in this case (and there will be many, sadly) I don't think any amount of understanding and empathy would have "fixed" things. But being a complete cold blooded snake and tabling him ruthlessly like a 50's mob boss wouldn't have made things any better either.

Meeting confrontational behavior with what can and likely will be taken as the same in return will sometimes work, but just as often only serves to escalate. A battle not fought is a battle not lost.

*trigger warning, sarcasm in use ahead*

As for the fall back of "Oh well, it's just a game?" You're right, time, money, passion, all of them go into "just games." But they are still just games. The outlook that your investments into them give you the right to take them as anything more than a game is the exact same basis for justifying riots after your team loses. Because hey, it's not like it's "just a game" right? I spent money on that jersey. And on the tickets. And I took time to come watch every game!

*sarcasm off*

Yes, it's just a game. At the end of the day, no matter how much you invest in it, it is an enjoyable waste of time that is arguably better spent doing something else. We call them miniatures. We call them models. We call them scale reproductions. ... They're toys. And we're playing with them. Grown adults, playing with toys, who in turn mock "childish" behavior. The comedy writes itself if you take it too seriously.

I think this is the point where I would call over a TO.

Alright guys. Chill. It's only a forum

Mr. EasternKing, I think we will have to respectfully agree to disagree on certain aspects. If things I brought up in a forum already "make you sick" it means we clearly reached a point were I will leave this topic to others. Good luck on the yet-to-come world tournament.

I doubt after the player learns all the rules their attitude will change. This sounds like a personality issue to me. After they learn the rules they will be arguing about measurements and being just as belligerent.

I played against someone recently like that, and even though I won the match, it was the most discouraging game I've had to date. Normally, win or lose, I have fun.

As for being proactive about telling new players the rules, I don't think anyone should be obligated to do so in a tournament setting, but I will usually find myself doing that anyway for some of the lesser seen combos like Warlord/H9. Wins against uninformed players feel empty to me.

Demolisher, though? Sheesh...

Lots of good discussion here, thanks guys, lets keep it cordial!

A couple of rejoinders: Def token and critical effects - I most definitely allowed him to announce which tokens he was going to use to defend the attack, but if you look at the attack resolution stack, non-standard critical effects take place before brace and redirect (but after evade) in other words if you can evade the critical that is triggering the effect then no crit happens, but since you can't brace or redirect away a critical once it's in the damage pool the attacker can opt to trigger the critical effect and you have to take that APT card ​before you apply the brace and redirect. for a standard ​critical effect that has a delayed resolution and depends on defeating shields to deal hull damage brace and redirect can absolutely prevent it triggering (I believe it's step "5" of the wonderful attack resolution document in the rules forum, I didn't completely understand attack resolution until I read it, myself). Effectively, the opponent announces he will use brace and redirect (since this was demolisher at close range and he was using ackbar not mothma, evades did not play) then he takes his APT crit card, then resolves his defense tokens. If damage gets through shields at this point there is no standard critical effect as the crit use has been exhausted, but it's very important that the non-standard critical effect is resolved before the brace and redirect (announced earlier) are applied as there are critical effects that can modify the results (such as shield failure, which removes a shield point from 2 hull zones and can therefore influence redirects).

Friendly play: I allowed this player to re-consider moves (early, before contact, I allowed him to take back notched moves), I pointed out to him after he moved a squadron to attack rhymer that he moved it in too close to my tie advanced and therefore rhymer was escorted and allowed him to move it back (subsequently losing rhymer). I allowed this player to change a miss-set dial, I allowed him all sorts of small errors and "take backs" with the understanding he was a new player. I don't want people to get the impression that I mercilessly slaughtered a new player while slavishly adhering to every rule. In return, he forced me to re-roll a hit/crit black die that landed maybe 5 degrees cocked with a tiny bit of the die on an obstacle (and I just smiled and re-rolled...). I also offered basic advice (which was largely ignored). The game ended when he basically conceded before I took a front arc shot with my ISD that had a good chance of killing his last ship, he then berated me for resolving the squadron command before the front arc to send in bombers that weakened the ship because apparently it was "a waste of time" because the front arc would (probably) have killed the ship in any case. (at which point he took his last ship off the board by lobbing it, nearly snapping it's stand, before I made my roll).

I agree, I should have called the TO over earlier, but really, I didn't want to make a scene. In point of fact this person appeared to be a regular at this store and seemed to be familiar with the staff while I am from a city 45 minutes drive away and had never been to the store. Next time I might call over a TO earlier as has been suggested in this thread but i'm wondering if in this particular case that might not have made the guy even worse! At the end of it all I made sure to shake his hand and thank him for the game (no, I did not scratch my sack before I did) and urged him to check out the rules forum for the attack resolution document and rules clarifications.

Eastern, I mostly agree with you, but I don't think this is cause to get so heated over.

I'm kind of between Eastern and Hesekiel on this. I'll deploy my ships and state the upgrades, "Alright, here's my Gladiator with Demolisher, Assault Concussion Missiles, Engine Techs and Ordnance Experts." If my opponent asks what any of those upgrades do, I'll hand them the card or invite them around the table to take a look. But I'm not going to say, "You know how powerful Demolisher is, right?" If the player doesn't have a strong enough grasp of the game mechanics to realize that shooting after moving is powerful, they probably shouldn't be expecting to win in a tournament. They deserve to be there. Everyone who has the ships, has paid the fee and is looking to have a good time deserves to be there. But if your understanding of the game is that limited, you shouldn't expect to place top three.

Pretty much any strategy game requires some level of dedication to perform well. For X-Wing, just playing game after game until you recognize patterns and in your mind van visualize where maneuvers will end up is crucial (or just being ridiculously good at visualizing and guessing). In Armada, playing against as many different fleet builds as possible and just getting the hang of effective maneuvering is crucial. If I've taken the time to study fleet builds and practice maneuvering and know what different ships can do, I'm not going to hand that advantage to another player just because they haven't invested the time. I'm not going to gloat while I club a baby seal, but I'm also not going to take it easy on that person and reduce my points because they made the choice to play in a tournament before they were ready. I went to my first Armada store championship after playing three games - two intro games and a third where I was showing a friend of mine how to play using ships other than the starter ships. I actually won my first game and got stomped my second, but I didn't complain. I went into it knowing I didn't have the practice or knowledge to win, but to use it as a learning opportunity.

I'm a friendly guy. I'll gladly explain what things do if my opponent clearly doesn't know, and I'll try to keep it light. I'll even give them advice after the fact. And in a league, I will hand hold as much as that newbie needs it. But a tournament is not the setting for that. I'll gladly give my opponent advice after the fact, but I'm not going to hurt my chances in the tournament I paid money for because someone has invested less time into the game than I have.

Yep I am chilled out now, I don't need to add anything else, sorry for getting a bit hot under the collar...now you know the trigger words!

At the end of it all I made sure to shake his hand and thank him for the game (no, I did not scratch my sack before I did).

Missed opportunity.

Mr. EasternKing, I think we will have to respectfully agree to disagree on certain aspects. If things I brought up in a forum already "make you sick" it means we clearly reached a point were I will leave this topic to others. Good luck on the yet-to-come world tournament.

First off, let me say sorry to you if you feel I was being overly aggressive, I wasn't, I can get passionate and typing is not the best medium to express yourself in.

As for my "I am sick of a discussion reaching a certain point." the I am sick is just a saying, like man that sucks, etc, it was meant to highlight frustration with the "it's only a game" card being tossed into the discussion. Nothing to do with you personally, it just winds me up in general.

Yes of course it is a game, 20 years ago people who played video games were called losers, geeks, weirdos, told by parents to stop wasting time and do something productive, now you can earn tens of thousands of £/$ a year playing video games in competitions. I play for fun just like everyone else, but "it's just a game" gets used to dismiss arguments and discussions, and that is what I dislike.

Disclaimer : I am not trying to argue, the opposite, with understanding comes acceptance.

Mr. EasternKing, I think we will have to respectfully agree to disagree on certain aspects. If things I brought up in a forum already "make you sick" it means we clearly reached a point were I will leave this topic to others. Good luck on the yet-to-come world tournament.

First off, let me say sorry to you if you feel I was being overly aggressive, I wasn't, I can get passionate and typing is not the best medium to express yourself in.

As for my "I am sick of a discussion reaching a certain point." the I am sick is just a saying, like man that sucks, etc, it was meant to highlight frustration with the "it's only a game" card being tossed into the discussion. Nothing to do with you personally, it just winds me up in general.

Yes of course it is a game, 20 years ago people who played video games were called losers, geeks, weirdos, told by parents to stop wasting time and do something productive, now you can earn tens of thousands of £/$ a year playing video games in competitions. I play for fun just like everyone else, but "it's just a game" gets used to dismiss arguments and discussions, and that is what I dislike.

Disclaimer : I am not trying to argue, the opposite, with understanding comes acceptance.

Having taken a pretty hard-line stance on this earlier, I do feel compelled to agree that, at times, this statement can and likely is used as a means of excusing inexcusable behavior. I do still think we all need to keep it in the forefront of our minds, but to clarify, I never meant that it excuses someone acting like a complete wad. In fact, in my opinion, it makes that type of behavior even more inexcusable.

I don't see "it's just a game" as "okay, act how you like, it doesn't matter." I see it as "Hey, whoa, what the hell man?"

Rather like calling over a TO. It's a pause button to take perspective and get passions in check. But never to dismiss validity or jack@ssery as "okay."

You seem a decent sort, EasternKing. And you are 100% correct in your statement that text is often not the best medium for expression. Words, as encompassing as they are, get half their power from inflection and tone of voice. Which online, is all in the mind of the reader; making any self expression an adventure.

Anyway, game on, folks! And best of luck to all of you!

I think the best way for a new player to approach this game is to be up front with your experience level with your opponent and to check all expectation of winning at the door... rather learning as much as you can should be the goal... I have had players, numerous times, teach me invaluable lessons about the game simply because I invited them to instruct me if they felt like doing so... I'm not sure sure what OP's opponent was hoping to get out of armada but it feels like he is in it for the wrong reasons

I think the best way for a new player to approach this game is to be up front with your experience level with your opponent and to check all expectation of winning at the door... rather learning as much as you can should be the goal... I have had players, numerous times, teach me invaluable lessons about the game simply because I invited them to instruct me if they felt like doing so... I'm not sure sure what OP's opponent was hoping to get out of armada but it feels like he is in it for the wrong reasons

He did say he was doing tourney to get the "cool stuff". I was there to "play armada"

My old school motto was as you sow so shall you reap. I try to do exactly that as best I can, I also understand that I am not infallible, and sometimes I get tied, angry, upset and otherwise don't perfectly attain my goal.

I also love competition, trying to do well and doing well is a great amount of fun. I expect my opponent too is trying to win, but neither he or I should be terrible to each other. We can still compete in a spirit of friendly competition, my son competes in FIRST Robotics competitions and they refer to this as Gracious Professionalism. Gracious Professionalism embraces the competition inherent in the program, but rejects trash talk and chest-thumping, instead embracing empathy and respect for other teams. The teams will donate parts to another team, it is far better to compete and lose to a better team than win for them not being able to get their robot running for lack of a part.

Being nice to each other doesn't take anything away from the competition. The trouble is, sometimes being nice doesn't get you nice back. But at the end of the day you have to answer to yourself for each day, if you were not nice that is on you just as much as when you did great things.

If my opponent misses something I typically let them know not just to be polite but also I want to win because I earned it, not because my opponent forgot a thing. I would be doing myself a disservice in not testing my list and skill against the full might of my opponent's. That said, if it is something where choosing not to do something conferred some benefit and suddenly they want to change their mind, then I would not allow that. No taksey backseys.

I was in a tournament game recently where several times my opponent forgot his Most Wanted extra die and I went out of my way to remind him every time. I then did a move with a corvette where I had to take 2 debris field damage, lowering my shields by two, which allowed his one red die to kill Mon Mothma, which was the death knell for my fleet. I took her off the table and maybe 30 seconds later realized she had Jaina's Light and I brain farted about that, meaning she wouldn't have died and the next round she would've been out of attack range for the game. The dude said he guessed his win would just have to come with an asterisk. I was really mad, but not at him, never at him. Myself, I was so mad that I forgot the upgrade.

But you know what? Guess who has two thumbs and will never forget about Jaina's Light again?

This is really fantasy flight's fault for producing such a terrible rule book. Attempting to make it look easy by making the rule book look short instead of adding actual examples and a bunch of images in a companion would at the very least solved all the crazy little rules issues. I finally had to sit down and spend about 6 hours reading the rules with all their explainations from experience players to confirm what I was done was correct and to get corrected what I was doing wrong. It only takes 5-6 mistakes to really be doing a lot of other things with regard to strategy and tactics wrong. So cry frustration that combing through the forums is what is needed to learn the rules unless you play with people who have already done so.

When playing a new player I will always explain to them all the hidden tricks and sneaky tactics / combinations on my side for at least a half dozen games.

I will tell them that Demolisher is a glasscannon sneaky-rapetrain with no brakes. I will tell them that the weakness of my VSD is that it is about as manoeuvrable as a week old turd, and I will tell them that the raider with overload pulse stacks with the ISD's Avenger title.

Why?

Because I value actually playing a game more than I value winning it. When they see the nuances of the game, enjoy it, and can play rock-paper-scissors with tiny spaceships at my level I will have an opponent who I enjoy playing against.

I love playing imperials in Armada campaign mode btw, and run it like an RPG, manipulating the game so that the rebels always *almost* loose, but get the campaign in the end. It requires a far higher social and gamesmanship finesse, and that is what I enjoy far more than the thrill of 'winning'.

If I want a quick win-thrill, I shall go and play Soviet heavy tanks on World of Tanks Blitz, where disposable opponents don't matter.

I just don't see what there is to lose by taking the time to expound on your list to your opponent. Why wouldn't you do that? It makes the game more pleasant for everyone and sets the tone for the game to come.

@Chuckle - I always do, outside of a tournament. And what's there to lose? My $10/15/20/25 and an entire day that I'm spending away from my family. I have two kids (both under four), so I don't get to spend a full day pushing fake spaceships around a table all that often. If I want to just have a fun, relaxed game, I'll invite people over to my basement or hit up my LGS for a few hours. And I'll explain every last part of the game and even go so far as to make suggestions along the lines of "These ships typically do this, so I will probably maneuver this way."

But a tournament is different. Every store around here charges an entry fee (although one just makes you buy $10 store credit, which I like, so even if you lose you still get your money back). A tournament is an all-day affair. Three rounds is almost seven hours, and there's a guaranteed 30/60 minute lunch, plus a gap between rounds two and three, plus the time it takes to move to a new table, set up terrain and deploy. So you're looking at the better part of nine hours plus travel time. That's an entire day. The main reason I go to a tournament is so I can have fun, but I can do that at my house for a few hours and not even have to put on shoes. If I'm putting an entire day aside, I'm looking to win some of the shiny bits that FFG has made for the tournament. I'm going to prepare for that tournament by playing test games, looking around the internet for possible meta things I should be aware of, and generally devoting time so I have a decent shot at winning. If someone doesn't put in that same time, I'm not going to reduce my chances of winning by holding their hand. I won't crush them mercilessly. I will answer every question they have. But if they haven't come as prepared, and aren't going to put in the effort to walk around the table and look at my cards, no sir, I will not decrease my chances of placing high in a tournament because of their lack of preparation.

I just don't see what there is to lose by taking the time to expound on your list to your opponent. Why wouldn't you do that? It makes the game more pleasant for everyone and sets the tone for the game to come.

I have no problem doing that with an opponent after a match. Doing a post-match debrief is a good way to get your opponents perspective on your play and list and vice-versa.

I'm experienced enough now that when I lose I can usually point very clearly to the 1 or 2 glaring mistakes I made to earn myself the loss and have the same insights to offer the other player.

I will NOT, however do that before the game or during the game (typically, I will say I warned this particular player that he was pushing his corvettes a little aggressively and they were going to have a bad time, to this advice he responded "well, that corvette is a throw-away". what the hell are you supposed to say to that other than "thanks for the points"?). I will usually only run down what's in my list if the opponent asks, I figure he's got eyes. How stupid is it in a competitive match in a tournament to run down your intended strategy before a match?? In casual play I will gladly explain what my intent is and why I built my list like I did, and I will take as much time as it takes to infuse some of the more involved concepts and strategies of the game to a newer player to draw him deeper into the glory of Prack. Tournaments are competitive. I play recreational soccer competitively too and I don't go up to the opposing goalie and explain to him how I prefer to shoot and how best to stop me... I also don't stop trying to score no matter what the score is because that's disrespectful to your opponent if he is losing and to your team if you are losing.