I don't think Alpha Strikers really need a lot of ordnance to be effective. As I stated, I have played Vader w/ Concussion Missile to good effect and he was the only one in the list with ordnance... Many lists really suffer from losing a ship early on.

I think this is a key observation. The topic post talks a lot about massed ordnance fire from (mostly) generic ships, but I think that--like TLT spam, or like BBBBZ, or even like 8-ship swarms--lists that have lots of ships with ordnance are going to have a fairly low impact on tournament play.You think about how you're going to fight 4 TLTs if you find them, and you might even build around them to some degree. But when you see them in play, they either win or they fall hard and early: if you figure out a trick to beating TLTs, you've beaten the whole list. Likewise with ordnance: if you have a ship that can reliably dodge enough arcs and roll enough green dice to survive the first round, you can probably beat an alpha-strike list.What's going to be harder to fight against is a list that folds some ordnance into a more diverse profile of threats. Off the top of my head:

Omicron Group Pilot (21)Emperor Palpatine (8)Soontir Fel (27)Push the Limit (3)Stealth Device (3)Autothrusters (2)Royal Guard TIE (0)Tomax Bren (24)Crack Shot (1)Proton Torpedoes (4)Extra Munitions (2)Cluster Missiles (4)Guidance Chips (0)Total: 99View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Who looks at that list and thinks "Okay, easy target priority choice"? If you focus on the shuttle or Fel, Bren has the guns to make you pay for it. If you focus on Bren, you're pretty much handing Fel a pass to the endgame. There are no easy choices here, and no one strategy that's going to account for all of the possible approaches the list might use. That's the kind of ordnance list I'm afraid of.

You go after Tomax. It's not necessarily giving Soontir a pass to the end game if you can just nuke Tomax. Assuming Palpatine is used on defending him and you have the capability to one volley him, he should be about as easy to kill as an Integrated Astro T-70. It's doable - especially with an alpha strike.

The alternative would be going after Soontir first, which means there is a huge chance you're going to fail and lose. Especially with Palpatine.

What about a Guidance Chip list focusing on B-Wings with Torps (either Proton or Plasma or even Flechette). You have Blount in there with VI & Tracers to get the locks, then the Blues/Daggers can all launch a volley of very accurate torps at the primary target. Also, after you are done with your Alpha you hopefully have 2-3 B-Wings to mop up what is left...

It might just be my fondness for the B-Wing, but Torps w/chips on a B-Wing should be really fun, even without the tracers with Blount.

What about a Guidance Chip list focusing on B-Wings with Torps (either Proton or Plasma or even Flechette). You have Blount in there with VI & Tracers to get the locks, then the Blues/Daggers can all launch a volley of very accurate torps at the primary target. Also, after you are done with your Alpha you hopefully have 2-3 B-Wings to mop up what is left...

It might just be my fondness for the B-Wing, but Torps w/chips on a B-Wing should be really fun, even without the tracers with Blount.

I think this is a decent idea, using ships that are good independent of ordnance so that once their ordnance is gone they can hold their own, but I think relying on Tracers Blount is a bad idea.

Many a wave 8 game is going to be ruined by doing a mass focus with all of your ships and having Blount get arc dodged or PS sniped. Plus, it denies you a 4th shot.

For this list you'd be better with Clusters Cracken with VI and chips. Hand out 2 free actions.

Arc dodging.

Ordnance can do great damage to ships, if they can hit said ship. Other wise it is just a point sink.

2x Blue Squadron, 2x Proton Torpedoes, 2x Chips

Blue Squadron, Plasma Torpedoes, Chips

Airen Cracken, Cluster Missiles, Chips

100 points.

2x Blue Squadron, 2x Proton Torpedoes, 2x Chips

Blue Squadron, Plasma Torpedoes, Chips

Airen Cracken, Cluster Missiles, Chips

100 points.

Clusters have a 1-2 range, and Cracken's ability has a 1 range, which means he has to somehow be ahead of the Blues. It's barely doable, but it's not trivial.

Also:

5x BSS + AssM + GS + GC (100).

2x Blue Squadron, 2x Proton Torpedoes, 2x Chips

Blue Squadron, Plasma Torpedoes, Chips

Airen Cracken, Cluster Missiles, Chips

100 points.

Clusters have a 1-2 range, and Cracken's ability has a 1 range, which means he has to somehow be ahead of the Blues. It's barely doable, but it's not trivial.

Also:

5x BSS + AssM + GS + GC (100).

BSS?

​There are so many BS pilots that I'd prefer we not truncate to initials for such things.

Black Sun Soldier, I'd assume.

And yes, I'd agree. Anything that can be taken will be spammed by someone, but it's a mix of capabilities that let you reliably win games without being scared of an auto-lose matchup.

To be honest, it'd be nice to see more ordnance in the never-used slots on a lot of heavy fighters. A Z-95 or academy pilot is good generic 'filler', but if instead you could be equipping two reasonably high pilot skill pilots with guidance chipped torpedoes or missiles..... something much more important than the Z-95 is getting it in the face on the first pass.

Integrated Astromech is a good free choice on an X-wing....but I wonder if sometimes Guidance Chips and a Torpedo might be a nice choice instead, especially with a Targeting Astromech letting you set up a lock on a Tallon roll - where (presumably) both sides are coming about and have no defensive tokens.

The problem with Targeting Astromech, of course, is that by doing so, you're making your torps a 'second strike' weapon - meaning you've got to survive the first strike. A T-70 is tough but not that tough.

I'm wondering if people start using some ordnance without Guidance Chip at some point? I mean, Flechette Torps are only 2 pts, roll 3 dice, and you stress them out even if you miss. That's not bad at all. I've used it with Xizor and been happy with the amount of damage it does when I've fired them primarily for the Stress.

Flechette torps have always been good. They don't need to hit to have an effect, and unlike the flechette cannon, multiple shots cause multiple stress tokens.

If you've got four to six points spare in a list you can do far worse than issue Starviper or T-70 aces with flechettes in their otherwise unused torpedo slots; being able to dump 2 stress tokens on a target is a great weapon for knocking out action-dependent aces!

It's a great weapon for 'mid level' aces or less manoeuvrable fighters - because a weapon that stresses your target is indirectly increasing your manoeuvrability (by reducing theirs), and because you can afford to pack several. Two to three flechette torps are infinitely nastier than just one, because 2+ stress tokens wrecks action economy for multiple turns.

It's just a shame the **** things can't stress Dash Rendar.

Flechette torps have always been good. They don't need to hit to have an effect, and unlike the flechette cannon, multiple shots cause multiple stress tokens.

It's a great weapon for 'mid level' aces or less manoeuvrable fighters...

It's just a shame the **** things can't stress Dash Rendar.

I agree that it's always been good, but you didn't see it very often. I'm wondering if people will actually start to use it more often because they finally look at ordnance as a viable thing. In other words, even without GC, they look at Flechette Torps and realize they can use it in their list when they would have never looked at ordnance as a viable option.

I found F. Torps as a great thing for Xizor w/ VI as he could stress out those other high PS ships when needed. I think it's great for something like that. I mean, you could put it on Wedge if you had the points and it's not a bad option. It doesn't lower his attack value, they might not get range bonus, and it stresses someone. Good even without GC.

I agree about Dash, but it does work on Bro Bots very well. They send one to bait you, but it then either S-loops or hard turns and boosts out of there.....except you Stress it right there! It can't escape. Very fun. Very easy to beat Bro Bots that way. They usually don't see it coming. I defeated 2 identical Bro Bots that way with Xizor Z-swarm in a row at Regionals. I was also surprised when I realized it doesn't effect Tie Bombers....and I was flying the Bomber!

Yup. Doesn't affect Y-wings, either, which a lot of people forget.

Don't play aggressors much, but I imagine it's very good against them; they have a **** good dial, but a lousy green dial, so they have trouble shaking stress once acquired. TIE advanced and Starvipers are much the same.

3 agility and good rolls counters ordnance lists.

Something like AT + SJ Guri will be the bane of Ordnance.

This Guri build wrecked me recently on Vassal when I was running a 4x TLT list (was 3-0 with that list until then). I was cursing Guri the entire time as she was often the only one in range of some of the TLTs, yet they had no chance of hitting her at range 3 while she sniped me. I can see the same being an issue for ordnance lists.

Countermeasures are crazily overpriced. It really should be 1 point. But even at 1 point, most of the time you'll want Engine Upgrade anyway.

Countermeasures is one of those cards that could be so fun if priced correctly. So sad it's 2 points too many...

It's cute and likely bad but you could do something interesting in scum with countermeasures and glitterstim. Tank a huge round of fire as boba with 3 agility and infinite focus.

I've been running a list with that. It's really fun but not über competitive.

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Scum%20and%20Villainy&d=v4!s!116:140,-1,-1,61,-1,128:-1:12:;131:140,-1,-1,122,21,61,128:-1:12:&sn=Pills%2C%20Kills%20%26%20Thrills

Cheap Ghosts are a good solution. The Ghost that I'm a fan of is run at 40 points, and it can take about 5 ordnance shots before it's put down. It'll get to shoot with it's massive 4 dice at least once and probably twice before it gets taken off the table if it's chosen as the primary target, and that's to say nothing of what your other 60 points of ships is doing.

Still waiting to see if we come across anything worth flying as an ace with a pair of torp boats.

StarVipers too expensive, Kithraxzes too vlunerable, scyks... Ahaha no.

Still waiting to see if we come across anything worth flying as an ace with a pair of torp boats.

StarVipers too expensive, Kithraxzes too vlunerable, scyks... Ahaha no.

What about a torp boat ace?

What do people think about Sensor Jammer? After all, the one thing that ordnance lists have trouble with is modifying dice; that's why GC's are so good. Forcing them to lose a hit, or multiple hits, with SJ could well be worth the 4 points if taken on a ship tough enough to use it...

3 agility and good rolls counters ordnance lists.

Something like AT + SJ Guri will be the bane of Ordnance.

This Guri build wrecked me recently on Vassal when I was running a 4x TLT list (was 3-0 with that list until then). I was cursing Guri the entire time as she was often the only one in range of some of the TLTs, yet they had no chance of hitting her at range 3 while she sniped me. I can see the same being an issue for ordnance lists.

And then poor Guri gets against acewing that's literally 80% of the meta, and gets obliterated in XXX fashion

3 agility and good rolls counters ordnance lists.

Something like AT + SJ Guri will be the bane of Ordnance.

This Guri build wrecked me recently on Vassal when I was running a 4x TLT list (was 3-0 with that list until then). I was cursing Guri the entire time as she was often the only one in range of some of the TLTs, yet they had no chance of hitting her at range 3 while she sniped me. I can see the same being an issue for ordnance lists.

And then poor Guri gets against acewing that's literally 80% of the meta, and gets obliterated in XXX fashion

Dunno about that, I have 50-ish games with her in various lists to date and usually she kills at least one ace vs. ace lists (twice I've managed 2 ace kills vs. Vader/Soontir setups).

Still waiting to see if we come across anything worth flying as an ace with a pair of torp boats.

StarVipers too expensive, Kithraxzes too vlunerable, scyks... Ahaha no.

A Mist Hunter might do the trick depending on how the meta evolves. Sure quad TLT is unfavorable for them, but with PS3 enemy canceling that might not even matter.

Contracted Scout [25]

• Deadeye [1]
• EM [2]
• Proton Torpedoes [4]
• Boba Fett [1]
• R4 Agromech [2]
• Guidance Chips [0]

35 points

Contracted Scout [25]

• Deadeye [1]
• EM [2]
• Plasma Torpedoes [3]
• Overclocked R4 [1]
• Guidance Chips [0]

32 points

Zuckuss [28]

• VI [1]
• FCS [2]
• 4-LOM [1]
• Mist Hunter + TB [1]

33 points

I am not quite statisfied with the Zuckuss build here as I'd rather have K4 and Advanced Sensors, but that gets so expensive that it is really questionable. 4-LOM is going to have to be used very carefully since this is a small base ship. This Zuckuss is bulky enough that he can keep up with the PS8-9 aces and his JM5Ks keep the TLT away.

I love the synergy between the two U-Boats where one strips the shields and the other is free to Boba the hell out of them.

What do people think about Sensor Jammer? After all, the one thing that ordnance lists have trouble with is modifying dice; that's why GC's are so good. Forcing them to lose a hit, or multiple hits, with SJ could well be worth the 4 points if taken on a ship tough enough to use it...

I am pretty sure this is not representative, because on a second thought, my rival wouldn't have used Sensor Jammer, but...

I shot a Proton Torpedo with Deadeye, so I had no Focus token left. My rival saw the opportunity to use Sensor Jammer.

I rolled hit, hit, blank, blank.

He used Sensor Jammer to turn one hit into one eye.

Then he realized his mistake.

Hit, Crit, Crit, Blank.

How about 2 ghosts (kanan and friends) with sensor jammer, shield upgrade. Sure you have 3 uboats, but you just mathematically cannot do 34 hull points before you run out of ordinance. and 4 attack dice is no joke.

How about 2 ghosts (kanan and friends) with sensor jammer, shield upgrade. Sure you have 3 uboats, but you just mathematically cannot do 34 hull points before you run out of ordinance. and 4 attack dice is no joke.

Especially if reinforced deflectors are involved.

I seriously doubt there will be an ordnance meta, in that ordnance becomes so common that you need to build entire list strategies around it. Even with all the additions, it is still less cost efficient than most other ways to boost offense. They just aren't completely pointless now. That being said, ordnance still requires ships to be in arc and often target locked. Anything that sheds or redirects target locks (Expert Handling, for example) will see more use, but generally, arc dodgers will remain effective against them. As far as secondary weapons go, cannons are still way more effective both in points and flexibility. Otherwise, I don't think you'll see much other than a shift in target priority to the ships with dangerous ordnance, which are typically not that hard to focus down.

Store championship results show us that Guidance Chips have brought ordnance into the meta. Should be interesting.