conner Ks
Mmmmm I love me some conner k's, they're the breakfast of champions.
Hypothetically- What would beat an ordnance heavy meta?
Corran/Biggs/Stresshog.
CAPTAIN KAGI REPORTING FOR DUTY!!!!!!!!!!
Captain Kagi
Reinforced Deflectors
Palp
Tactical Jammer
OL
Juke Comms
Inquisitor
PTL
Prockets
Title
AT
OR....
Exchange Inquisitor for...
Carnor Jax
PTL
AT
SD
Title.
so having never flown anyone but Yorr i had no idea what Kagi's PS was... NOW THAT I KNOW that EITHER LIST will be all PS8, i'd forgo the Init bid at 99 points and put Tractor beam on them. Two dice/three dice, one less agility on an ordnance carrier (1-2 greens max) plus palp and Reposition, see signature, and juke??? i might run this list regardless of status of Ordnance.
Expert Handling.
My response too:
Black Sun Ace (k-fighter) + Expert Handling x4! (or 2 + Kath/Fett all with Expert Handling).
Or lots of Scyks with Tractor Beams shooting first. Mess up their ranges big time...
Corran/Biggs/Stresshog.
Really, Biggs + anything will suffice.
Expert Handling will make a little bit of a resurgence, but it only gets rid of one TL ... and only if you move after the TL is acquired. Expert Handling BSAs, for instance, aren't going to do much in general, but even to the extent they do, they're ruined by Blount + Tracers.
All I'm saying is ... strap in for a bumpy ride.
Edited by Jeff WilderReally, Biggs + anything will suffice.Corran/Biggs/Stresshog.
Miniswarm+arc dodger
The Miniswarm takes the alpha strike and then the arc dodger cleans up the now useless torpboats
So I have been seeing some proxy play of triple (ordnance heavy) Jumpmaster lists, and they seem to be pretty powerful. Z-95 alpha strikes also seem to be pretty powerful.
Obviously, there is no reason to believe they are overpowered as we don't even have the ship/upgrade in our hands yet, but while thinking about it, I did have an interesting thought to myself- If ordnance proves to be top line competitive, what would you fly to counter it? I'm having trouble coming up with many ideas. Maybe Crackshot swarm deals with it well, but other than that? I'm not sure.
ANY arcdodge works well.
when your pricey torp sees nothing but unflinching void, it's worth nothing...
So I have been seeing some proxy play of triple (ordnance heavy) Jumpmaster lists, and they seem to be pretty powerful. Z-95 alpha strikes also seem to be pretty powerful.
Obviously, there is no reason to believe they are overpowered as we don't even have the ship/upgrade in our hands yet, but while thinking about it, I did have an interesting thought to myself- If ordnance proves to be top line competitive, what would you fly to counter it? I'm having trouble coming up with many ideas. Maybe Crackshot swarm deals with it well, but other than that? I'm not sure.
ANY arcdodge works well.
when your pricey torp sees nothing but unflinching void, it's worth nothing...
::cough:: Dantels ::cough::
So I have been seeing some proxy play of triple (ordnance heavy) Jumpmaster lists, and they seem to be pretty powerful. Z-95 alpha strikes also seem to be pretty powerful.
Obviously, there is no reason to believe they are overpowered as we don't even have the ship/upgrade in our hands yet, but while thinking about it, I did have an interesting thought to myself- If ordnance proves to be top line competitive, what would you fly to counter it? I'm having trouble coming up with many ideas. Maybe Crackshot swarm deals with it well, but other than that? I'm not sure.
ANY arcdodge works well.
when your pricey torp sees nothing but unflinching void, it's worth nothing...
::cough:: Dantels ::cough::
::cough:: Autothrusters ::cough::
his royal guard majesty Fel can generate up to three evades out of thin air.
I seriously doubt there will be an ordnance meta, in that ordnance becomes so common that you need to build entire list strategies around it. Even with all the additions, it is still less cost efficient than most other ways to boost offense. They just aren't completely pointless now. That being said, ordnance still requires ships to be in arc and often target locked. Anything that sheds or redirects target locks (Expert Handling, for example) will see more use, but generally, arc dodgers will remain effective against them. As far as secondary weapons go, cannons are still way more effective both in points and flexibility. Otherwise, I don't think you'll see much other than a shift in target priority to the ships with dangerous ordnance, which are typically not that hard to focus down.
As pointed out, the best ordnance options will not require a target lock or will have other ways to get cheap ordnance carriers that lock (ex: Blount w/ tracers).
I was actually looking forward to the "ordnance meta" until they revealed that the contracted scout is only 25pt. Being able to build a good ordnance carrier like that with PS3 and Deadeye for 33/34 pts is disgusting and eliminates one of the major drawbacks of ordnance spam (getting that TL with your low PS). No wonder they are all the rage on Vassal.
Edited by CelesI was actually looking forward to the "ordnance meta" until they revealed that the contracted scout is only 25pt. Being able to build a good ordnance carrier like that with PS3 and Deadeye for 33/34 pts is disgusting and eliminates one of the major drawbacks of ordnance spam (getting that TL with your low PS). No wonder they are all the rage on Vassal.
They are pretty sweet, but they're better on paper than they are on table. Their offense is so dramatically reliant on actions that obstacles or bumping can just ruin them, and they have effectively no defensive tokens because they need them for offense. They shouldn't be taken lightly, but there are all kinds of paths to victory against them.
I'll add a little thought
A-Wing, Green Squad (19)
Title (0)
Deadeye (1)
Crack Shot (1)
Concussion Missile (4)
Guidance Chips (0)
X4 = 100pts
All the Kagi, Omega Leader, Expert Handling shenanigans in the world aren't going to avoid the pain that these little fellows are going to dish out!
3 agility and good rolls counters ordnance lists.
Something like AT + SJ Guri will be the bane of Ordnance.
3 agility and good rolls counters ordnance lists.
... Doesn't "3 agility and good rolls" pretty much counter every possible list?
(Well, except for Black Sun Soldier + AssM + GS + GC (x5, 100). 3 agility and good rolls is probably still going to eat it hard there.)
As far as secondary weapons go, cannons are still way more effective both in points and flexibility.
I don't think you understand that a Homing Missile with chips pretty much always hits for 4, right?
One of the things people don't understand about disposable cards is that while they can only be used once, you only have to kill a ship once. Disposables just have to be good enough to be worth not running something persistent, which Crackshot already is and ordnance will be.
Also, triple U-Boats fix all of the problems with ordnance simultaneously.
I was actually looking forward to the "ordnance meta" until they revealed that the contracted scout is only 25pt. Being able to build a good ordnance carrier like that with PS3 and Deadeye for 33/34 pts is disgusting and eliminates one of the major drawbacks of ordnance spam (getting that TL with your low PS). No wonder they are all the rage on Vassal.
They are pretty sweet, but they're better on paper than they are on table. Their offense is so dramatically reliant on actions that obstacles or bumping can just ruin them, and they have effectively no defensive tokens because they need them for offense. They shouldn't be taken lightly, but there are all kinds of paths to victory against them.
I think that's true, but I think the discussion will be very similar to what we see for TLTs this meta. And, I think it could be more frustrating in the sense that TLTs is a death by tiny cuts while playing poorly against an ordnance focused list is a 10 minute game.
Edited by AlexWAlso, Biggs with R4-D6.
Expert Handling, Captain Kagi, or ships with great range-control.
I seriously doubt there will be an ordnance meta, in that ordnance becomes so common that you need to build entire list strategies around it. Even with all the additions, it is still less cost efficient than most other ways to boost offense. They just aren't completely pointless now. That being said, ordnance still requires ships to be in arc and often target locked. Anything that sheds or redirects target locks (Expert Handling, for example) will see more use, but generally, arc dodgers will remain effective against them. As far as secondary weapons go, cannons are still way more effective both in points and flexibility. Otherwise, I don't think you'll see much other than a shift in target priority to the ships with dangerous ordnance, which are typically not that hard to focus down.
This would all be true, except that it ignores one thing: ordnance with Guidance Chips will erase ships in the first exchange of fire. That is a huge paradigm shift. The ability to hit a huge TL+F alpha strike has, until Wave 8, meant a very heavy investment in points.
This is only an illustration, showing why the Alpha Strike meta is going to be huge, so take it only in the way intended.
A really good ship: Dagger + FCS + HLC (33).
Two cheap Alpha Strike Meta ships: Tala + ConcussionM + GuidanceC (34)
There are some possible outcomes (and obviously init is huge):
(1) The Dagger wins init, rolls awesomely and its chosen target blanks out on greens. Win for the Dagger.
(2) Anything else happens? Win for the Talas, with at least one, possibly both still alive. Weak, yes: just Headhunters, possibly one of them crippled. But alive. And the Dagger is not.
The Alpha Strike meta is going to be huge, folks. I am not looking forward to it. And that's not because I don't want to see Bombers and Z-95s (the vast majority of carriers) do well in the game. I do. I just don't want games decided, effectively, at the list-building stage. And we're gonna see that much more than we do now.
As of now, even the most lopsided match-up is maybe 3-to-1 in favor of one list, all else equal (and that estimating high, it's likely closer to 2-to-1); in the Alpha Strike meta, expect to see lots and lots of games with a favorite at 9-to-1 or so.
1.) Nothing could possibly be more winning in the list building phase than the Phantom/Turretwing era, and it's going to be less winning in the list building phase-y than it is currently. Ordnance based alpha lists have decent matchups against both TLT and Acewing and fat turrets. Hopefully the meta will revolve around them instead of Soontir or regen Poe or some no-skiller with 4 TLT's, and you'll be able to account for them in list building a lot easier because they'll be the only thing you'll have to account for.
Because right now I can make a list that deals well with Acewing but loses to TLT, and vise versa. If you just had one of those to deal with you could better account for that one thing. Hopefully Ordnancewing will be that one thing.
Unless of course you're talking about the fact that low-mid pilot skill bidding will be important, to which I respond with: Good.
2.) It's not really that something being overpowered is a bad thing, it's when that overpowered thing ignores how the game was meant to be played. Ordnancewing being overpowered brings the game back to jousting and being good at maneuvering instead of just doing a green hard 2 and a boost and barrel roll after you've seen where your opponents ships have moved to.
Edited by ParaGoomba Slayermanaroo
Im pretty sure a
Gamma Squadron Veteran 19
-extra munitions 2
-proton torpedoes 4
-dead eye 1
-guidance chips 0
Is going to find its way into alot of my lists after vets come out. 26 points to dump on average 3 hits and a crit twice will be a welcome addition to alot of squads.
I for one welcome our new TIE Bomber overlords.
U-Boat meta? U-Boat meta.