In the Home Page a "deluxe expansion" has been announced for Call of Cthulhu LCG. It contains 100 new cards and new stories...

I'd really like to see something like that for Agot in the near future...It's something like a "special" new Core Set, adding new choices and good stuff for each factions.

From the description, it contains 50 different cards, 2 copies per card. Not bad...

Would you like something like that?

If they release something like that, I would relay like to see, that there are 3 copies of each card in it.

We've already got something like that: the Kings of the Sea and upcoming Princes of the South Deluxe Expansions.

In fact, from your description of the CoC set as 50 cards, 2 copies each (like the Martell expansion being 60 cards, 2 copies each), it sounds like FFG applied the lessons learned from KotS to CoC, as well as to PotS.

Nightstorm said:

sorry but this is never going to happen. 1st, there is no one forcing anyone to buy 3 copies of each card. 2nd and more germane, FFG needs to release things that people are going to buy more then one of. One of the problems with the CCG was that there were not enough people buying packs (lots of reasons including secondary market, and CCG stygma). Under the LCG if growth ever stops, which i hope it won't, then FFG can make 1 pack that it sells to each player 2-3 times and it is effectively doubling its purchaser group. Yes, the LCG is made for new players to get involved, but like any good plan or model it has things built in to help it make money when growth is lacking.

I don't usually post but I like reading your opinions. And Lars, yours makes me be a little sad. It's a shame you talk about a German style in this way. Here in Spain, when we buy a Volkswagen we do because it's plainly trustful. We know we are buying the best car in the market comparing price and quality. That's what I think it's the German style. They don't need to force anybody to buy more pieces to be sure it is going to work. Then some years later, a new Volkswagen appeared with new features and we change our old Golf for another newer. So profit is based on investment and innovation.

So I think AGOT has to be profitable like any other business: based on innovation not forcing their customers to buy more copies.

I like seeing FFG is learning a lot from our opinions and now any special chapter from AGOT, CoC or Warhammer Invasion has more than one copy for each card but FFG has to be more self-confident and give a completed playset in every chapter. Otherwise, new players will give up, and just people like you will still buy their products. If this happens, all they intended to do with LCG format will be a waste.

naizen said:

Why do you think that? If they innovate in card design, why do they have to "become confident enough" to provide a complete playset in every chapter to keep people interested?

The LCG model is supposed to make it easier and cheaper to find the cards you want, lowering the entry and maintenance costs for playing, but it is also trying to maintain a certain CCG flavor in that some cards take a little more effort to obtain - albeit considerably less than rares and even uncommons in the CCG days. Part of the flavor of the game is wondering, when I discard your King's Landing, if you managed to get a second copy (and put it in the deck, etc.)

So while I disagree with Lars that FFG "needs" to release LCG products that "require" people to buy multiple copies, I do think that the 10 x3, 10 x1 make-up of the CPs does not need to change, and probably won't because of game design and philosophy.

The Deluxe Expansions are a different issue, but I'm thinking that if they went 3x of everything in those (which is certainly possible), we'd either be seeing fewer unique cards (say 40 instead of 60) to keep it at 120 cards, or see the price go up for 180 cards.

I absolutely agree, ktom. When I said chapter, I was trying to say the special box like KotS or PoS. I think chapters are fine with a distribution of 3x10 and 1x10, but I think a 3x10 for non-unique cards and 1x10 for uniques would be even better (maybe because I'm not so interested in the old ccg flavour). Then, if you are a pro player, you can buy extra chapters to get duplicated cards, otherwise, you'll have what you want with just one copy.

naizen said:

I think it's misunderstanding. Lars said "germane" not "German".

Rogue30 said:

Wow!! Sorry Lars. Yes, I misunderstood that word. Anyway, I like the German style in my example and I don't think LCG has to develop their products like Lars maintains.

germane... I love learning new words for my very limited vocabulary in English ;-)

Those people who wish to play with the base model (to use your car analogy) you have a single price point by which you can get years of enjoyment. If you would like to upgrade to a higher service plan where FFG will provide you with a minimal amount of game maintenance, you may buy a Chapter Pack a month. If you would like a more utilitarian game, one which is larger, more room to grow, and are willing to pay the increased cost you can go for the CS2 or CS3 models (the number of Core Sets you have to play with). You also can buy the extended House card to House card warranty and emergeny protection service where you get not just every possible luxury and utilitarian feature you get the sports package which ensure your decks can go further, faster, and with less problems regarding parts availability and get every thing in the line x3.

You are mistaking the various models of play as things you are required to purchase. This is incorrect, just like expecting to be able to buy a Maybach Exelero for the same price as a VW Jetta... or your Jetta to have the performance and luxury elements of the Exelero. It isn't ever going to happen.

heh, indeed germane, not German or Jermaine. sorry about that.

dormouse said:

Just one question. If FFG gave 3x non-unique cards and 1x unique cards in every product, would you make a complaint? When I read some of your opinions, it seems you enjoy establishing differences among players. From my point of view, a change in the distribution would be good for all, casual players, collectors, professional players and FFG. We all want the same: make AGOT a bigger game. I think a game is really important when it gets a massive supporting base of players.

It seems FFG is learning fast but not fast enough for AGOT. Some days ago, I tested Warhammer Invasion. Maybe the best card game I've ever played. In the core set: you can find several interesting numbers, for example 3x and 2x for most of the cards. This is a very important change comparing it with AGOT Core set and LCG evolution seems to get closer to my view of market.

I don't ask for more cards in a chapter or special box. So costs would be the same. I think the key is the distribution: it's more interesting to have 3 new players with one core set than 1 player with 3. The same happens about chapters. If the game is not able to grow more, only ccg old players will buy more chapters and then AGOT will start dying again(as I think it happened in the ccg era)

What you are advocating is fewer cards in a chapter pack and I will never support that. And no, when I want to dupe a unique card to protect it I don't want to be forced to get every non-unique card x6 or x9. I don't mind some redundancy, but the way the CP's are now provides the most flexibility, offering the occasional dupe of uniques and some non-uniques cards appearing only once.

I'm not trying to say there must be stratification, I'm saying that just because a certain model is appealing to you, does not mean it is appealing to everyone, nor meet their needs. It appears you've already made up your mind on the subject, and FFG isn't likely to come across this thread and change their policies when Chapter Packs and Core Sets are selling out, not just at particular stores but in entire countries. It appears that they have managed to find a very good balance between what board gamers want and CCG players want. I honestly don't think switching to your distribution format would make FFG more money, obviously not in duplicate product sales to current players, nor in a suitabley increased number of first time buyers with retention.

Do some market research. Crunch the numbers. If you can prove to Christian that they would see a 10% increase in product sales across the entire line, I'm sure they would change it ASAP.

Speaking as a newer player, I'm pretty much OK with the current distribution model. The chapter packs are cheap enough that, once I get 1x of each, I'm OK looking into which ones I want more than one copy of. Since I'm on the more casual side, I'll be doing this gradually, picking up a pack or two a week on my way to work. The LCG model makes this a viable, low cost approach that still offers me plenty of options when building custom decks. So far I only have 1x of the Core and 1x of 12 chapter packs and I'm not feeling horribly limited. While there are definitely some one offs that I want 3x of, I'm not so constrained that I need to rush off and get the extra two packs immediately.

I'm also fine with the way Princes of the Sun has been set up. 2x of all cards means I can build a fine deck without buying another copy, but if I do decide to buy another it's only one with minimal waste (1 extra card of each) - which I may even find a way to take advantage of by building casual decks for play with non-collecting friends.

Kings of the Sea, however - well, that just irritates me. I won't even bother picking it up unless I can get at least 2 copies at once. I'm glad FFG learned from the community feedback regarding that expansion.

dormouse said:

Well, let me see... first, thanks for your answer because it has helped me to understand your opinion. Second, I'm not advocating (advocate, another great word I've learned in this thread ) fewer cards in a chapter pack. I'm just expressing my opinion about the need of a greater supporting base and the way to get it(changing the card distribution, not increasing the quantity). Of course no, I'm not going to do any market research. I have my own work, I don't want any extra, thanks. In addition, I think there is no need for that either. Time will judge if our opinions were wrong or right. I hope yours is right, of course, because it seems that everything is working very well in your country. That's great. But don't say entire countries. Here things are not so good.

I can see lots of chapters from Time of Ravens on the shelves in every shop yet and this is a very worrying fact. I think AGOT is going to have lots of competence with other FFG products (LCG Cthulu, LCG Warhammer Invasion,...) very soon and we'll see how many new players are going to collect AGOT next year. Talking about my own meta, I have to say it is very hard to make it grow and some of the players who started with the core set have quit since summer. Maybe your meta is absolutely different and that's because your opinion is absolutely different from mine too.

The only thing that makes me be a little angry is when I wrote a thread making a complaint about KotS last July, lots of people defended FFG when it was plain that its distribution was a very bad idea. Then, FFG changed the distribution and everybody was happy. Now I'm just saying FFG can do things better, that's all.

I ask you a final question: if you don't want to be forced to get non-unique card x6 or x9, why are you doing now? What happened if you want 2x Littlefinger from Secrets and Spies? What are you doing with the extra cards?

Why not get a few friends who play to buy packs with you and split the cards amongst them based on who plays which house. If everyone picks a house or two to support then the cards can be split up allowing those who want them multiples of the cards they want for their house. And if you buy multiple packs, same one each with 3 or 4 friends there should be enough of the neutral cards for those who want them to get them.

I still think that the major problem people had with KotS revolved around two points,

1. that it included a resin House Card and there was no need for three of those in someones collection and they would rather have more cards in its place or paid less

2. that they totally misunderstood the purpose of KotS and thought it was going to give them every card they needed in an appropriate amount to build a competitive GJ deck.

Now with one I definitely agree. I'd rather one House Card in my collection, purchased separately and more cards for the same cost or a lower cost.

Now with two I definitely don't agree. I thought it was obvious it was introducing a new House in a Core Set style, which is to say if you want to make a competitive deck you should probably already be budgeting for two. I actually played a few games Cs deck against KotS deck, and I didn't win every game, I think I was shut out no more than I shut out other decks, and was competitive in most of my loses, and racked up a nice amount of wins.

What FFG did was fail to manage expectations. None of the articles about the KotS told people what they were getting clearly and that allowed people to read into it what they wanted. They listened and made corrections, but even with all the complaints we started hearing of stores selling out. I think it was Spain who sold out of them completely and people were having to order them online in English (trying to reconstruct the various posts so I may be wrong about some of this, the search function is woefully inadequate on this site).

As to what do I do know with some of my cards that are x6 or times x9? Some I box, some I give to new players who have just purchased a Core Set as part of a welcome package. Creates great goodwill towards us long time players and the game, an investment which helps with retention... the point I was trying to make is I have more flexibility at times, in this with the way, than if I had to get all non-unique cards x6 or x9 in a CP for one or two dupes of key uniques. Some is preferable to all.

naizen said:

Too many extra cards have never been a problem. When i first started playing this game I only had one deck built, as I'm sure most new players have right now. Soon i had two decks built, and its now up to one per house at the minimium with a couple of different deck builds floating around on paper. I'm up to my 4th version (at one time) of a lanni deck, with 2 builds that i use a lot (you talked about buying a 2nd Littlefinger, how about a 6th Enemy Informer ). I never know when I'll need 3x of a card for a new deck idea so having 3, 6, or 9 extra lying around (neatly stored in a box) has never been a bad thing.

On top of that there are certain cards that i like to use in every or nearly every deck (milk of the poppy, the streets, Hand's judgment, just to name a few) and it gets tough to find them/remember which deck i've pulled them from. I've bought 4 of a number of chapter packs and almost bought a 4th Core Set (but was lucky enough to have a meta with players from older sets then me and was able to borrow a few extra copies of reprints).

So that is what I do with extra cards.

A deluxe expansion would be nifty.

widowmaker93 said:

There already is one and a second on the way. Kings of the Sea is already out and Princes of the Sun is on the way. These are the AGoT equivalent to the CoC deluxe.

Well actually the Greyjoy and Martell expansions aren't exactly the same. You see in the CoC Core set you get cards for every faction so that each is playable out of the box when combined with another faction. In AGoT, your Core set merely consists of 4 of the main houses while leaving out Greyjoy and Martell(for what reasons, I will never know). The GJ and MT expansions were introduced in order to finally get those houses into the LCG community and give them a card pool that is worth building a deck with. If i'm correct and the Martell exp is anything like the GJ one then you may see 1 or at most 2 cards that are house specific that are not Martell related. Along with a few neutral events and characters that any house can use. The CoC expansion is meant to be an overall expansion for every faction(each one getting about 6-8 cards and 6-8 neutrals usuable for each faction). I'm pretty sure that this is what the poster meant by wanting a "Big Box" expansion. A few cards for every faction instead of ones that are House specific. Which I think would awesome if it were to go that route after Martell hits.

I dont see the need for that. I prefer the chapter packs. I don't see the need for a big huge expansion. Would just be something else to buy and I prefer how LCGs have much lower cost to keep up. Something like that on top of the large expansions for Greyjoy and Martell I don't think is needed.

Toqtamish said:

Would it be cool? Yes!

Is it needed? Not really. The chapter pack cycles are so well done that I think this game could do without any more big or small box expansions.

Is it needed for CoC? Without a shadow of a doubt. That card pool is so small that it's no wonder why noone hardly plays the game. Gotta get more variety! Hopefully this will help matters a little.