A friend of mine wants to get a minatures game that is NOT fantasy/magic or Star Wars. Infinity and Deadman's Hand both look real good. Do you know of any others? Maybe something with a pirate theme?

An advert for a pirate miniatures game keeps popping up on BGG, kickstarter coming soon. That's all I can remember about it.

The TO should provide the maps, and ffg should allow them to do that by providing the printed maps to the organiser.

I understand with X-Wing the starter set isn't enough, but at least it has a good price point to get into the game.

The thing is, for X-Wing, and Armada, or even the LCG's... You need a core set and then everything else is in theory optional. With X-wing and Armada you don't have enough stuff for a full list, but you can get that easily by buying expansions. But no single expansion is required.

Which is not true of Imperial Assault. That is going to harm the game in the long run, when people have to buy not only the models they want, but also buy box sets they don't want for the sake of the tiles.

I really empathize with anyone else who wants to play this game competitively due to the initial cost of getting started but there are worse starting costs for some other hobbies out there yhan this game.

That depends on what hobby you're talking about. In the miniature game world, there aren't many that are much worse. I mean the worse one is Warhammer 40k, but at least with that game most of what you buy is stuff you actually want.

But with Imperial Assault, someone who has no interest in the campaign can look at spending $100 for Twin Shadows and Return to Hoth, and only because they need a couple tiles from each box. $100 for 4-5 pieces of cardboard is hardly a good deal.

This policy will rather quickly ensure that the only people playing IA skirmish at official events are people who play both the campaign and skirmish.

That's only true if they NEVER want to or choose not to run:

- Heavy Stormtroopers

- Tusken Raiders

- The Tank

- Snowtroopers

- HK Assassin Droids

- Wampas

etc etc.

They are demonstrably NOT buying the boxed expansions only for the tiles. They still get all the other components and trying to claim otherwise is disingenuous.

This thread is getting side tracked.

I think we're really discussing 2 broad issues:

1) the unequal distribution of deployment cards in the boxed expansions and how that results in artificially limited units for skirmish

2) the entry level cost of skirmish, due to the boxed expansions being made a requirement for tournament play, because of the map rotation/selection

I don't have a huge issue with no. 2. This game provides tons of value, particularly if you play campaign too. The boxed expansions are great value and contain several options/units for skirmish anyhow so I don't see much of a problem. There is, of course, the issue of what it might do to the long term viability of skirmish player communities - but I think we've got to accept that the nature of IA will mean it will always be at the bottom of the pile, under Armada and X-Wing.

As my OP suggest - my main issue is with 1) - as that issue unnecessarily truncates the skirmish game and actually negates some of the value of the boxed expansions

And that is where it comes full circle to, ya they get access to Snowtroopers and HK Assasins Droids with Hoth, but like you said only half the deployment cards. So now I have to convince my friend to buy all of that stuff to compete in the tournament total of $200 USD so far, at least, with no blister packs.. and he still can only one run of each type of unit. How stupid is that?

He would turn to me and say So I did everything they asked me, and they want me to buy a SECOND big box expansion JUST to be able to run two elites? So these problems aren't separate imo, they are very much linked. Buying a big box to get a tile to compete at a tournament when none of the units interest you, or buying a second big box to be able to run two of the same unit, both are ridiculous and neither are a sustainable model let alone one that will facilitate growth. I can accept that we will be at the bottom of X-Wing, but that doesn't mean I will continue to support it.

I think FFG should quickly allow that as long as a player owns an original copy (from box/pack/promo/ebay'd/donated) that the other(s) can be a proxy. So this way you cant just change it and all cards look similar and you cant "cheat" via edit on a proxy. This would require you to at least own ONE original copy.

~D

The reason they do it is for campaign limitations. Can't use more than one elite in campaign, so they gI've you one elite card.

Not a good reason, but it's the reason.

Right so all they have to do is release cards with the Skirmish only symbol like they did for R2D2 and we are set. Also what you are saying doesn't really matter, because what stops someone from buying a second core set and just running two elite Royal Guards in campaign? The rules! So whether we got more cards or not people still need to follow the rules and the limitations set out for the campaign.

Ultimately they campaign restrictions (like only 1 elite) should just be in the campaign rules somewhere.

If it's already there, then the number of cards in the box doesn't matter.

If it's not there, then nothing is stopping me from buying a stormtrooper A&V pack and using a second elite unit.

It would take 14 extra cards to make the core set fully viable and fully flexible.

I think it's 6 in Hoth and 4 in TS.

That's all that FFG needs to do here. Release 24 more cards in a booster or something and this whole problem goes away.

Releasing 24 cards in a rotating organized play format over the next however many years isn't an option.... if they keep doing this in new expansions then the promo cards will never actually catch up.

Yeah they need to do a much better job supporting skirmish and outlining what options are available to campaign dark side players.

It's simple stuff!

I don't have a huge issue with no. 2. This game provides tons of value, particularly if you play campaign too. The boxed expansions are great value and contain several options/units for skirmish anyhow so I don't see much of a problem. There is, of course, the issue of what it might do to the long term viability of skirmish player communities - but I think we've got to accept that the nature of IA will mean it will always be at the bottom of the pile, under Armada and X-Wing.

I think it makes much more of a difference than you realise.

My regular group has played through the main campaign, Twin Shadows, and Hoth. Everyone loves the game - and we've done all that with my stuff only. That is, indeed, fantastic value.

When we're done with campaign for a while, I suggest to them playing skirmish. They enjoy the game, they want to play skirmish - but they look at what they need to be buy just to be able to do that, and what they will continue to need to buy every three months as FFG rotate the maps, and for a long while they all decided not to bother. (Eventually, two of them caved in and bought the core set; one also bought Twin Shadows). It's not only a question of whether buying the main box, both expansions, and zero or more A&V packs, is good value in its own right (I'd agree that it is), but also whether they could just play another game instead, with less required outlay (most games having no practical upper limit, of course). And... they can.

So I end up playing skirmish in the shop, against people like yourself, and that's great and I enjoy those games - but from five campaign players in my regular group, FFG managed to get initially one (eventually two more, somewhat reluctant) skirmish players. That can't be great for their bottom line, and neither is it great for the skirmish community, where we're getting at most six players in a tournament, a pattern that seems to be repeated worldwide. That doesn't just leave IA with fewer players than X-Wing or Armada, which might just be the way of things... it's borderline non-viable.

Yea it was even worse at my 'local' SC, I use the term loosely as it was 3 hours away. Total population of 1 million in that 3 hour radius, 5 people showed up. X-Wing by comparison had 21 at their SC in the same city with 3 more hosted by different stores in previous or following weekends. Of the 5 people who showed up, we figured we had about 25 people total between our campaign groups (some had multiple groups, 2 guys were from the same campaign group). Between all of us we had convinced a total of one person to buy into skirmish. He was at the tournament as one of the 5, so 25-4 campaign hosts gives us 21 total possible conversions, we got 1. That is 5% (thank you CalebML for the correction).

Just horrible. Everyone had the same excuse, game is just to expensive to buy in with way to much waste.

Yeah, heres the thing with the value a core box brings to the table. Yes, its a great buy at $60-$100 but that allows 5 people to play in CAMPAIGN. For Skirmish, it doesnt even allow 1 person bc they need to have another 2 box sets. So lets re-evaluate what we are looking at. $100 core set for campaign = 5 people, hours and hours of play. $100 core set for skirmish = 0 people, no hours. Now sure you can play "house rules" and just have you and a buddy play with limited stuff but neither of you can play "officially" in a sanctioned tournament unless otherwise gifted by a generous TD who will allow you to use something proxied. So you can say yeah but that person can use that core box to play campaign, but if 5 people get it for skirmish, each one uses their sets, but in campaign you only need ONE core set. So unless everyone is running with their own campaign with a different 4 people, then that actually results in 20+ people with 5 core sets for campaign, but most likely its just the same 5 people and you dont need 5 core sets for that.

~D

25-4 campaign hosts gives us 21 total possible conversions, we got 1. That is 0.05%.

It's actually 4.67%, but yeah pretty bad.

Odd question...

Is there a market for just the tiles? I'm seriously considering getting a second Twin Shadows for more Tusken Raiders (because I'm weird) and will have no use for the duplicate tiles.

25-4 campaign hosts gives us 21 total possible conversions, we got 1. That is 0.05%.

It's actually 4.67%, but yeah pretty bad.

Ha sorry forgot to times it by 100 and I rounded up to make it look slightly better than it is But we get the point.

I'm sure there is on ebay.

I have a Store Championship next week and it should be fun. But one of the guys there I know won't have the Twin Shadows box. But it will be small and so we can work around that.

But he doesn't have the cash for Twin Shadows right now. Myself I have it but don't have Return to Hoth. I could swing Hoth now, but I am not going to spend that much money on a box for the sake of a few tiles.

Yes I can and will play the campaign it comes with at some point, but not until this fall most likely, and so I won't buy it until then. So for me after this SC my sanctioned skirmish play is done, maybe for good. Because by next season I expect I'll need Bespin and I don't expect to buy it until I'm ready to play though the campaign, which may not be for some time.

Which is a shame, because I like skirmish and like the OP stuff FFG does. But if I have to spend $40-60 every few months to keep playing... I just won't bother. I'll still do Skirmish night at the LGS where we can play a map that we actually have tiles for, but that's it.

I don't have a huge issue with no. 2. This game provides tons of value, particularly if you play campaign too. The boxed expansions are great value and contain several options/units for skirmish anyhow so I don't see much of a problem. There is, of course, the issue of what it might do to the long term viability of skirmish player communities - but I think we've got to accept that the nature of IA will mean it will always be at the bottom of the pile, under Armada and X-Wing.

I think it makes much more of a difference than you realise.

<snip>

'Bitterman' - I agree with a lot of what you're saying. And the viability of skirmish is definitely suffering.

But 1) its a separate issue to my OP, and we're going down a different path here.

And 2) I go back to my last statement

I think we've got to accept that the nature of IA will mean it will always be at the bottom of the pile, under Armada and X-Wing.

That's because of the campaign and skirmish modes almost competing with each other. Let's imagine two alternative worlds, one where IA is campaign only and skirmish doesn't exist - just like Descent. And the other where the game is skirmish only - a la X-wing/Armada.

Campaign Only World

I probably would have bought it, and would currently be lamenting that I've played it less than 5 times since it's release. But a TON of people would still buy and love the game. It'd be pretty much still be the huge success that it is, as a board game with a excellent campaign system.

Skirmish Only World

The whole distribution and figuration of IA can be changed, addressing pretty much all of the problems in this thread. We get a core set with around 30 miniatures in it.

Let's say for the Imperials:

- Vader

- 3x Officer

- 2x Guards

- 6x Stormtroopers

- 1x Gunner

- 2x Probe Droid

For the rebels:

- Luke

- 6x Troopers

- Gideon

- 4x Sabs

Or something, you get the idea.

Also included a set of dice, all the tiles, deployment cards, tokens etc.

Now we have a core set, just like X-wing and Armada.

Waves would consist of Ally/Villain packs - although their configuration may be slightly different.

And there we have it, a distribution of products more akin to X-Wing or Armada - or do we?

The problem is and will remain to be - the tiles - and I don't see how we could ever get around that issue. Imagine if X-wing tournament rules said every 3 months - You must now own the Bespin Mat. or whatever.

FFG will never (and probably can't legally/license wise) the tiles as a standalone product. So I'm not sure what can be done.

Even if they were less 'aggressive' with the rotation of maps, and say only ever included maps requiring the core set and + 1 boxed expansion at a time, everytime they rotated them, people would still need the new box.

The problem is and will remain to be - the tiles - and I don't see how we could ever get around that issue. Imagine if X-wing tournament rules said every 3 months - You must now own the Bespin Mat. or whatever.

That's a good point, but sadly FFG seems to be using the tiles as a way of forcing skirmish people to buy the boxes. That's a problem for two reasons.

One it's bad because it hurts the skirmish community. As I said I'm done with the OP stuff, quite possibly for good because I won't buy a box expansion until I'm ready to play the campaign. I think most people are likely the same. While they may be willing to buy the box at some point, they won't do so until they can use all of it.

If all you pay is the campaign then you're fine. But if play skirmish even if you play the campaign as well, the box isn't worth much until you're ready to play the campaign.

It's a completely broken system for anyone who only plays skirmish which leads into...

Two, it seems like rather than putting stuff you really, really want for skirmish in the boxes they put stuff that's ok, perhaps not even that, and then use the power of the rules to force you to buy it anyway.

I think the biggest problem with Imperial Assault is that it's a hybrid. It's like FFG really considers the campaign to be the main point of the game and continue to treat skirmish as the stepchild.

Edit: and while rotating the maps around for the sake of keeping things fresh. There's what a dozen or so maps that only need the core set. At 3 per season you could rotate out 2 a season and still have 6 years worth of maps.

The problem is and will remain to be - the tiles - and I don't see how we could ever get around that issue. Imagine if X-wing tournament rules said every 3 months - You must now own the Bespin Mat. or whatever.

That's a good point, but sadly FFG seems to be using the tiles as a way of forcing skirmish people to buy the boxes. That's a problem for two reasons.

One it's bad because it hurts the skirmish community. As I said I'm done with the OP stuff, quite possibly for good because I won't buy a box expansion until I'm ready to play the campaign. I think most people are likely the same. While they may be willing to buy the box at some point, they won't do so until they can use all of it.

If all you pay is the campaign then you're fine. But if play skirmish even if you play the campaign as well, the box isn't worth much until you're ready to play the campaign.

It's a completely broken system for anyone who only plays skirmish which leads into...

Two, it seems like rather than putting stuff you really, really want for skirmish in the boxes they put stuff that's ok, perhaps not even that, and then use the power of the rules to force you to buy it anyway.

I think the biggest problem with Imperial Assault is that it's a hybrid. It's like FFG really considers the campaign to be the main point of the game and continue to treat skirmish as the stepchild.

Edit: and while rotating the maps around for the sake of keeping things fresh. There's what a dozen or so maps that only need the core set. At 3 per season you could rotate out 2 a season and still have 6 years worth of maps.

Well exactly - which hits home my point - the game is the way it is (great value, but stacked towards campaign) because of it's 'schizophrenic' nature.

BUT as I say, even if the game was and only ever had been a Skirmish only game - unless they wanted us to play without a grid (tape measure anyone? or 'templates'?) we'd still need the tiles and still have basically the same problem as we do have right now.

BUT as I say, even if the game was and only ever had been a Skirmish only game - unless they wanted us to play without a grid (tape measure anyone? or 'templates'?) we'd still need the tiles and still have basically the same problem as we do have right now.

Myself I'd of preferred it if they didn't have tiles... I think that puts limits on the game, especially for skirmish type games. I've played enough skirmish to know that it works, so it's not like it was the worse idea ever. But if it were pure skirmish they could of done without the tiles in the first place.

But even with the tiles as I mentioned above, with a dozen or so different maps you have years worth of maps you can rotate in and out. Plus there's still a ton of combinations you could do with just the core tiles.

So there is no practical reason I can see to include maps from the expansion boxes, short of using it as a way to force people to buy them.

Campaign Only World

I probably would have bought it, and would currently be lamenting that I've played it less than 5 times since it's release. But a TON of people would still buy and love the game. It'd be pretty much still be the huge success that it is, as a board game with a excellent campaign system.

The problem with this statement is that as others have mentioned many other times, the current popularity of the game can potentially be attributed to the "overbuying" of the core set by Skirmish players buying multiple core sets just for the cards. Though this can never be proven, I'm inclined to lean towards the anecdotal evidence from other posters in regards to campaign players is that of every 5 player campaign only 1 person buys the game ( 1 core, 5 players A&V packs unnecessary but optional) , vs. 1 Skirmish player buying multiple core sets and multiple A&V packs (1 Player 1-2+ core & multiple A&V packs some mandatory but most strongly recommended due to command card distribution)

I will be fascinated (but saddened if true) to see if the sales of the core set tail off due to the Royal Guard errata as well as a saturation of the market for campaign only players.

I really want this game to be as appealing as it should be but as VanorDM and others point out above FFG's aggressive stance on map rotation and the requirement of tiles from Twin shadows and RTH in a couple weeks creates an artificial barrier to Organised Play, ESSPECIALLY when (in my opinion) Skirmish players will become the significant majority purchaser of this product, if they aren't already.

If FFG don’t actively begin to Provide a more enticing Organised Play environment for skirmish players while removing the artificial entry barriers then they will be stuck with many more 4-5 player Store Champs events, potentially killing the player base, with only the movies potentially keeping interest in the game.

Honestly, FFG is in a catch-22.

The game has dual roles. If it was just a campaign game, it could stand on its own as is. Adding in skirmish means they had to go one of two ways: keep the tiles -or- create pre-generated printed maps. Doing the former would likely have lead to fewer battlegrounds and honestly just made skirmish into "WOTC SWM 2.0". Making a game which does not rely on a grid would have possibly put the game into a complexity category that would have overshot their target audience (I know I'd not have taken a second look at the game if it was a "tape measure" game).

I initially purchased the game with the sole purpose of campaign play at home with the kids. As such, I went full-hog and ordered everything within a month's timespan (mainly so I have time to paint later releases while I'm in the middle of the initial campaign). Now I'm gradually getting interested in skirmish and honestly am the driving force in getting games set up at my FLGS. The map issue will likely not impact us locally as we will be looking at the Relaxed tier of play and I have no issue rolling back the clock to a time when only Base game maps were being used.

FFG likely could have served the Skirmish players better by waiting a few more cycles before tossing in a RtH skirmish map but they are a business and selling product is what they do. If a player is wanting to embark on the more competitive side of the game (Store Championships onward), I look at the need to buy the boxed expansions as merely a cost of moving into the higher levels of competition. YMMV.

If a player is wanting to embark on the more competitive side of the game (Store Championships onward), I look at the need to buy the boxed expansions as merely a cost of moving into the higher levels of competition. YMMV.

But that's not a price you pay to get into the higher levels of competition for any other FFG game. You can be competitive with a core set and optional expansions in X-Wing, Armada, and the various LCG's. While there may be advantages to 'keeping up with the Jones' in those games, you aren't forced to do so.

The other problem IMO is that these box sets aren't great values for a pure skirmish player. None of the heroes in TS or RtH seem to be popular in skirmish. I don't know that anyone uses Tusken Raiders or Heavy Stormtroopers much either.

In RtH the most popular unit seems to be Echo Base troopers and Leia, both which come in expansion packs.

It seems that for the pure skirmish player the box expansions just don't have much so the only reason they get them is because they have to. That is IMO the biggest problem. If the boxes had value to someone like that it wouldn't be so bad.

On one hand, I'm not sure how many pure skirmish players there are out there, I mean how many people buy Imperial Assault purely for skirmish play? I'm sure there's some but there is qutie frankly a lot of other skirmish style games out there. The problem is however that with the way FFG is running things the number of pure Skirmish players is not likely to increase.

At a high end competitive level, IA is cheaper than X-wing. Period.

That being said, this wasn't the case during 4x4 and it may not be the case if you buy individual X-wing upgrade cards off eBay. It also varies with X-wing depending on the meta... sometimes you need 1 card from those massive epic ships, sometimes you don't.

But I agree that at a high end competitive level (Regionals and beyond) it doesn't really hurt the game.

Where it hurts the game, is the low end competitive level like Store Champs.

That's a new player's first taste and any sort of structured play. I guess stores could run more organised play days without it being a store championship... that would let you run the core set maps only. But I think that's probably just too rare. The community is still too small to bother hosting a Wednesday evening event. My FLGS does this for X-wing regularly with a solid turn out, and it's a great way to introduce new players to the competitive scene without being "too competitive" and without taking up a whole weekend day.

Make the game easy to start. Make the competitive scene easier to get into... the sales will naturally come when you get people hooked (especially the fairly cheap A&V packs). It's getting them hooked in the first place that's the hard part.

They could include proper ammount of deployment cards (one elite and one regular per figure group) in future boxes and release small card "accessories like" expansion with missing regular / elite cards from all previous big/small boxes. Rules in campaing already limit deployment cards + you can make these extras as skirmish only with the rule already seen on some deploymet cards.

I came from X-Wing and it is really wierd to have all unique hero deployment cards twice and missing the common ones if you buy all the expansions.

But that's not a price you pay to get into the higher levels of competition for any other FFG game. You can be competitive with a core set and optional expansions in X-Wing, Armada, and the various LCG's. While there may be advantages to 'keeping up with the Jones' in those games, you aren't forced to do so.

(..)

All games have their dark sides. I came from X-Wing. I have all rebel and empire ships. I hate scum. Too many (all) EU ships with little movie background. They put important cards like autothrusters exclusively into their expansions I could live with that. But now you need to buy new core set (I already have 2 original ones) just because of updated damage deck = no tournament without it. But I really have no intention to buy another reskinned/slightly modified TIE fighters nor X Wings. The movie was huge disappointment and this made it even greater.