Comeon FFG, give a crap and you will get more than just us hardcores playing your game(s).

They already have more than just us hardcores playing their games. FFG isn't hurting for customers, especially when you consider that out of the top 5 miniature games X-Wing is number 1, with Armada #3, and out of the top 5 board games Imperial Assault is #3.

You don't get those kinds of sales by only selling to the hardcore.

What's the possibility that those numbers are bloated by intentionally engineered multiple purchases of the same product?

What's the possibility that those numbers are bloated by intentionally engineered multiple purchases of the same product?

Sales are sales. If someone is willing to buy the same product over and over then they must see some value in it, or else they wouldn't buy it.

But the idea that only the Hardcore play FFG games is pure nonsense, their board games sell quite well, the LCG's sell really well, their RPG's all sell well. X-Wing is their single biggest seller.

If only the hardcore were playing X-Wing it wouldn't be selling anywhere nearly as well. Same goes for Imperial Assault as well really.

Edit:

But as long as FFG is making whatever target they have for sales of IA products then there's not much reason for them to change things. I mean if people keep buying multiple copies of the box expansions so they can get the cards they want... Then why would FFG change things?

There's really zero reason for FFG to offer more cards in the boxes when the only thing that does is mean people don't need to buy multiple boxes.

The idea of card only packs increasing the profit is theory, we can't actually know if that would be more profitable.

The only reason they'd change things is if overall sales starts to drop off and they think that by making the game more skirmish friendly would help increase sales.

I love the posters who out of four paragraphs pick one sentence to blow up and over analyze. What I mean by that is all it would take is a little attention to what we are asking for and you could quite possibly expand your player base exponentially. What I mean by that is, many groups I have talked to have the owner of the game (like myself) and 4-6 regulars who swap in and out of campaigns, or some (like myself) run multiple campaigns with multiple groups. Many of these players would like to get into the Skirmish side of the game as well but feel restricted based on the current sales model. AKA they don't care about the campaign side as I already have it. So what could happen is if they made it easier for these people to get into the Skirmish side (easier = less expensive in this case and less redundant) they could EXPONENTIALLY grow that product within my group, my second group, and lots of other groups around the world I am sure. This is basic marketing.. or fishing, however you want to look at it. You found the bait that works, now get some more lines out there.

Lets continue to look at this from a basic business standpoint, no company wants to stand still they always want to be growing. If you honestly think that FFG is ever happy with their current business model and is not constantly working to improve it then you are quite foolish. That is how companies fail and fold. What we are trying to do is give them some suggestions on how they can continue to grow. You think Coke sits in their office and is just happy with sales? You think McDonalds is happy where they are at? They just sit around playing ping pong? No, the big dogs, the top dogs in their respective categories, are always aggressively growing their product and I can guarantee that FFG does the same or they would not be where they are right now. They had people buying four cores of their game, think about that, to compete at tournaments. And they changed the game drastically. Think about that son, they had people buying four cores, they took a pay cut to facilitate the growth of their game. You don't think a game gets stagnant like that? They had great sales, awesome, but will those sales continue like that? They obviously saw a need for a change. They've got great sales right now, awesomer! But do you think those great sales will continue under the current model?

Oh they changed the errata to balance skirmish... but... but.. what you were saying, they didn't need to do that!! Their game was already the best, why bother changing it? The sales model was sound proof righ? Bullet proof ... right? Wrong.

While there are solutions to this skirmish problem, rest assured the response from FFG will be for us all to go pound sand.

They changed the LCG distribution from 10x 1 and 10x 3 to 20x 3 a long time ago, at least partly due to player demand. I don't think they are impossible to talk with, but I also don't think they make decisions on such lightly, or even fast.

Imagine if for every non-unique ally/villain pack there was 2 products - with the exact same miniatures, mission, agenda and command cards - but only 1 copy of a regular/elite deployment card. That's essentially what's happening with anything in the boxed expansions.

Elite Rebel Saboteur Ally Pack

Regular Rebel Saboteur Ally Pack

You crack open your pack and you have everything you need, but you can't run it as either a regular or an elite, depending on which one you bought, because FFG arbitrarily didn't include both cards...

Hmm. I have enjoyed FFG's choice of tournament cards that really seem to cater to the groups people want to run more of, so all you have to do is play a tournament or trade with someone who did to get the right number of what you need. In casual play I just "Copy" the card if I don't have two of them.

I think if they would just do a Royal Guard and Snow Trooper etc.. AVP it would solve all the problems. Then I can spend 10 or 20 bucks instead of 60 or 120.

But I understand they want some units to be exclusive to these boxes so people will buy them. But that is also completely unnecessary because people need to buy these big boxes to have the map tiles to compete in tournaments!

I think that is also the biggest glaring problem with this product right now that we have all over looked. It came to my attention a few days ago, as I said in another thread, I had a friend convinced to buy Core + TS and build a list so he could come compete with me in the upcoming tournaments in another city. Then they went and changed it so he also has to buy Hoth, that increased the spending by another $90 (Canadian) and he said "Sorry man, I'm out, that is way to expensive of a price point just to get into the game." I had to agree with him. $155 Core, $65 TS and $90 Hoth to have all the necessary tiles. You don't NEED AVP's to build a competitive list from those cores, so lets not include them. That is a total of $320 Canadian (taxes included rounding down) to be able to get into the game at a tournament. That is with a semi competitive ST list I think, Etrooper, 2 x Rtrooper, ESnowTrooper, Officers etc.. What is that American right now? I think $225? Does that sound about right with Tax? We get hosed in my province so I am sure it is cheaper elsewhere, lets say $175 American, can you get all 3 of those for that?

What would it cost me to build a SEMI competitive X-Wing list? Something you could show up to a tournament and not get blown out of the water. Doesn't have to have any fancy upgrades since this doesn't have any awesome skirmish upgrades like Vaders Finest or Rule by Fear or whatever, just a basic list, the cheapest price point to get in.

My pipboy says $320 Canadian is $240 American. Its a **** lot either way.

rest assured the response from FFG will be for us all to go pound sand.

Sorry but that isn't even remotely true, and has been proven false in the past.

Before S&V came out the rule was going to be that you had to use a S&V dial with a S&V ship. That meant even though you had the pilot cards and ship tokens for an extra 2 or 3 Z-95's or Y-Wings you couldn't use them without a S&V dial to go along with them.

But by the time S&V actually came out they changed their stance no doubt due to feedback by the players and you can use any factions dial.

Magic is a "rich kids" game because you can spend a lot of money to get the right/best decks to dominate the tournie scene. Games-Workshop charges more and requires you to buy direct for some of their more over-powered minis in games like Warhammer Fantasy and 40K.

What we're seeing with FFG is not entirely different. They don't need to balance out the tournie scene, because that's not where they're making money, but if you do end up buying 400 core sets, they're not going to complain. And why would FFG want to change that model. More profit = good, right? This game really appeals to the Star Wars completist mentality. That's why we're not seeing the same product distribution and model that we do in Descent.

Then they went and changed it so he also has to buy Hoth, that increased the spending by another $90 (Canadian) and he said "Sorry man, I'm out, that is way to expensive of a price point just to get into the game."

I don't blame him, requiring people to buy the box expansions simply for the sake of the tiles is really one of the worse parts of how things work right now. I shouldn't need anything other than the core set and whatever expansions I want to play. I'm likely to buy the Hoth and Bespin expansion anyway... But if I found out I had to have Hoth to play in the SC end of this month I'd simply not show up.

What would it cost me to build a SEMI competitive X-Wing list?

Core set, 1 X-Wing (expansion either T-70 or T-65 both cost the same) and a YT-1300. That would be $85 USD MSRP.

And why would FFG want to change that model. More profit = good, right?

But just looking at short term profits is generally a bad thing, that's why 40k is falling like it is. FFG will make more profit in the long run by making a good game that is accessible to more people than counting on the whales who buy 4 core sets.

So the change to the Royal Guards and the rest actually can help their bottom line by attracting more people into the game. But putting out some sort of A&V card pack may or may not do the same thing.

Yes, but right now Star Wars is the hotness. It's not a short term profit plan, as anything Star Wars is virtually printed money. They can milk this product in this format for the next couple decades and not feel any impact.

They can milk this product in this format for the next couple decades and not feel any impact.

I don't think anything that lasts for decades can really be considered milking... At least not how I normally hear the term used.

Bottom line is the bottom line. FFG will make the best game they can, because the better the game the better it will sell. Sure they can get by with an inferior game and count on Star Wars to help move copies. But they'll move more copies of a Good Star Wars game then they will a bad one.

Bring player friendly also helps move copies. I don't doubt for a moment that changing their stance on S&V dials helped sell more S&V stuff, because that was really a PR win for them. That inclines people to spend money as a reward to the company.

But there's a balance point between player friendly and the bottom line. For example in X-Wing selling card only upgrade packs could be very player friendly, but would also harm the bottom line, so they won't do that. But then they do things like put 3PO in the store champ kit, or put Advanced Sensors in the E-Wing pack which are player friendly moves.

So that means for Imperial Assault that they may or may not find new ways to get more deployment cards out there, but if they do that really depends on how much doing so will cut into the sales of the box expansions.

Yes, but right now Star Wars is the hotness. It's not a short term profit plan, as anything Star Wars is virtually printed money. They can milk this product in this format for the next couple decades and not feel any impact.

Yes because the star wars minis game is going so well for Hasbro right now......

Considering the distribution model in x-wing it is quite astounding that FFG have not only started with artificially restricted units but actually persisted with the model through the 2 (soon to be 3) large box expansions.

I really do hope they correct it in future packs, but they seem to be doing a few strange things of late to discourage new players which is very disheartening.

I really want this game to become really popular but it is being stunted by these decisions from FFG

I had an epiphany in another thread and figured I'd bring it over to this discussion as well.

Could FFG solve this issue by adding in the additional regular and elite cards for the duplicate troops in the expansions but give them the skirmish icon? You maintain the integrity of the campaign guidelines by only having a set number of deployment cards from which to choose but still give the skirmish player the ability to run each unit at the desired level!

Yes, but right now Star Wars is the hotness. It's not a short term profit plan, as anything Star Wars is virtually printed money. They can milk this product in this format for the next couple decades and not feel any impact.

Yes because the star wars minis game is going so well for Hasbro right now....

Huh? Hasbro doesn't have a SW minis game. They gave up on that years ago.

Could FFG solve this issue by adding in the additional regular and elite cards for the duplicate troops in the expansions but give them the skirmish icon?

That's not a bad idea really.

Huh? Hasbro doesn't have a SW minis game. They gave up on that years ago.

That's the whole point... If Star Wars was really all it took, then that game would still be going.

The problem with having to buy all the boxed expansions to play in a tournament will be fixed when they start allowing printed maps.

Could FFG solve this issue by adding in the additional regular and elite cards for the duplicate troops in the expansions but give them the skirmish icon?

That's not a bad idea really.

Huh? Hasbro doesn't have a SW minis game. They gave up on that years ago.

That's the whole point... If Star Wars was really all it took, then that game would still be going.

Yep, Vanor gets it, +1 Darth Vader Cookie for him

The problem with having to buy all the boxed expansions to play in a tournament will be fixed when they start allowing printed maps.

Thats not going to happen it seems, players have been asking for legalised printed maps virtually since competitive skirmish began in March last year and there has as far as I know not been any respone to the question at all.

In fact with them having just printed cards like "Set a Trap" that specifically reference Map tiles they seem to be actively discouraging printed maps, particularly like those that Ibsh has spent many an hour creating for the wider player base photoshopping out the tile joins for a nice clean look.

Now anyone who printed those out cant effectively use them if either player has one of those cards in their command deck, and to be honest any card that allows an additional attack outside of activation in this game (like Set a Trap, even if its conditional) will see heavy play.

Thats not going to happen it seems, players have been asking for legalised printed maps virtually since competitive skirmish began in March last year and there has as far as I know not been any respone to the question at all.

The issue with printed maps is that they would in theory let you play Skirmish without actually buying a core set.

I mean what do you really need to play Skirmish? You need the map, the figures, dice and a few tokens. Other than the tokens if you could use printed maps, you could buy a few A&V packs, a set of dice and be done with it.

Even if not having the tokens was a big issue, so everyone bought the core set, it would really damage the sales of the box sets. If you play Rebels, what exactly in that box do you need for skirmish? You can get 3PO and R2 from a A&V pack, you don't need the heroes... Even Imperials only miss out on Heavy Stormtroopers.

So if you didn't need the tiles then there isn't a ton of reason to buy that box if you only play skirmish. Or any other box as far as I can tell.

Could FFG solve this issue by adding in the additional regular and elite cards for the duplicate troops in the expansions but give them the skirmish icon?

That's not a bad idea really.

Huh? Hasbro doesn't have a SW minis game. They gave up on that years ago.

That's the whole point... If Star Wars was really all it took, then that game would still be going.

There are many reasons why the WOTC game failed. WOTC planned poor expansions, the collectible minis market took a hit when the economy dropped (I'm surprised Heroclix is still around), and it was a lull in the Star Wars movie timeline. WOTC and FFG are handling a minis game at two different points in the life of Star Wars.

Thats not going to happen it seems, players have been asking for legalised printed maps virtually since competitive skirmish began in March last year and there has as far as I know not been any respone to the question at all.

The issue with printed maps is that they would in theory let you play Skirmish without actually buying a core set.

I mean what do you really need to play Skirmish? You need the map, the figures, dice and a few tokens. Other than the tokens if you could use printed maps, you could buy a few A&V packs, a set of dice and be done with it.

Even if not having the tokens was a big issue, so everyone bought the core set, it would really damage the sales of the box sets. If you play Rebels, what exactly in that box do you need for skirmish? You can get 3PO and R2 from a A&V pack, you don't need the heroes... Even Imperials only miss out on Heavy Stormtroopers.

So if you didn't need the tiles then there isn't a ton of reason to buy that box if you only play skirmish. Or any other box as far as I can tell.

While that is true I would suggest that 90% of players that wanted to play skirmish would buy the core eventually anyway as you get really good value for money from your first core, but with significant diminishing returns on any additional core sets bought after that.

The problem is though, with the map rotation as of the 2nd of April, to play officially sanctioned IA you NEED the core set, Twin Shadows AND Return To Hoth, the latter 2 just for a couple tiles.

That is enough of a financial barrier to stop people getting into the game to begin with, however with printed maps, you get people in the door buying a few A&V Packs here and there, then eventually just like anyone who gets into the game they go deep getting all or most expansions anyways. As it is the buy in up front is the biggest barrier to the game becoming more popular.

To put things in perspective I am in the process of organising the first casual IA event in my City (the first of many I hope), but due to the fact that Return to Hoth is in short supply or being scalped at $90USD a set I am going to have to run the event with the 3 skirmish maps and missions from the Core set. I don’t mind but if I enforced the current (or soon to be current) active maps, no one would turn up and I suspect the potential for a competitive scene in my city would be lost almost permanently.