One of my players have read too many BL books :-) and came up to me with idea that he wants his Noble Scum to have Latent Psyker ability. As I understand - it means that his PC will gain Psy Rating 1.

So, now I think how can I introduce Psy Rating 1 as an Elite Advance in my game. Any ideas how much can it cost, and how will Inquisition react on 'sudden' psyker found among it's acolytes? Will they send him to Holy Terra for sanctioning?

It's a perfectly workable idea. I have used it several times, often starting by giving the character one or two minor powers that relate directly to things their character is already very good at. I've found the DH rules system to be mch more useful for this approach though. Our smooth talking scum got the ability to conjure up lho-sticks or similar small items useable as a social icebreaker, since he seemed to always have such on his body. Our flamerwielding guardsman got some choice bits of the pyromancer spells etc. In this way they can keep their powers hidden... for a while. It might not even be neccessary to tell the other players *evil grin* And doing it in stages makes it feel like a more natural transition. I'd make sure to think closely about what powers I hand out, they might stack in unpredicteable ways with other abilities. Same goes with the elite advances. Make them cost a fair bit of xp, since you might be giving away huge abilities to a person that doesn't really have lots of the drawbacks of a traditonal psyker.

An inquisitor can of course handle a newly popped psyker in any way he wants, and I think all possible ways of handling it are represented within the inquisitors. However, since you are telling a story in cooperation with the players here, I think it would be best if your inquisitor takes some action that will allow your player to keep playing her character, and maybe even add some interesting layers of conflict. So I'd suggest the inquisitor (you) do something like:
Equip with an explosive collar, give the controller to a trustworthy member of the party.
Rejoice over this gift, since you have used far more dangerous tools.
Brand the psyker in the face with your own homemade Seal of Approval, so she at least looks official.
Teach her how to keep the powers hidden.
Teach her how to improve on her powers.
Teach a trustworthy member of the party how to spot a possible possession, and to kill the psyker if that happens.
Equip her with a hexagrammatic ward and some holy incense.
Give her an official Inq document that tells people that a) she is not a psyker, or b) it's allright that she is a psyker
Give her a "padawan apprenticeship" with the partys properly trained psyker as her mentor.
or anything similar...

Take a look at the Nascent Psyker elite Package from the Inquisitor's Handbook.

Mrakvampire said:

That really isn't how it works. Such individuals don't just get nice, controllable powers like a sanctioned our soul-bound psyker. They are wildcards with no training who generally act as a conduit for the Warp to invade the material realm. They are the Damned. As was already suggested, look at the Nascent Psyker elite advance package in the Inquisitor's Handbook. If he really has read a lot of BL books, he should be well aware that his character is pretty much doomed if he chooses to go such a route...

Personally as a GM I'm up front that a being a Latent Psyker is a bad idea. If they are up front with it they get hauled off to the black ships. If they hide it sooner or later someone will find out about it. (Then it's a death sentence.) Also any sort of psychic examination is going to reveal it. IE aura reading, or extended telepathic contact. (What Inquisitor wouldn't do one or the other to his employees on a regular basis? I know the PCs would if they were him.)

That said if a PC develops powers in the course of their work and reports it. I simply have the PC in question under go sanctioning local, buy psi &psynince (sp?) as elite advances then roll on the sanctioning table. This take about 1 year game time. (I give the rest of the PCs a couple of free advances to represent their training.) Personally it's never made sense that every psyker gets shipped to Terra. (Sure emperor snacks and astropaths.) I figure that generally they are examined and sanction then handed over to the local schools for further training.

Dalnor Surloc said:

Do note that Inquisitors have the authority to sanction certain psykers themselves, otherwise Gideon Ravenor and Gregor Eisenhorn would have been up to their armpits in trouble way before they started to go the radical way. (since both of them kept "rogue" psykers on retainer and as acolytes and they hadn't been examined by the custodians of the black ships at all)

It's the GM's call, because he or she will inevitabely rule what kind of position the Inquisitor have about rogue psykers, and the GM isn't under any duress from the fluff that the psyker has to be turned over to the black ships, even if the psyker is found out.

So depending on the GM, an Inquisitor might go: -"Aaah, you're a witch! Consider your ass overturned to the closest black ship!

Or the Inquisitor could go: -" So you're a witch are you? Interesting. Let's see how this play out, but know that I will keep my eye on you!"

Of course Gideon Ravenor ends up under arrest at the end of the trilogy in large part due to having said psykers around.

Dalnor Surloc said:

I have to disagree with you there. Remember that Gideon was visited by several other agents of the Inquisition during the trilogy, many of them knowing about Patience Kys' abilities but they didn't even remark upon it (and she havent been sanctioned by any "proper" order of the scholastica psykana). Neither did Gideon's own, more puritan acolytes. So the only logical explanation to this is that if an Inquisitor takes a rogue psyker under his/her wing, then very few people are actually in a position to challenge said Inquisitors decision to do this. Which would of course make sense since the black ships are basically run by Inquisitors and the decisions to either sanction a psyker on terra or having it delivered over to the Astronomican is made by Inquisitors under the advisement of other high ranking psykers.

I mean, if Inquisitors have the right to have entire planets burned, it stands to reason that they have the option of taking on rogue psykers as acolytes, providing of course that said psyker isn't known for any "slip ups" (like having a previous career as an arch-heretic, preforming warp rituals and killing Imperial officials etc.)

So discovering that one acolyte whelp actually turned out to be a latent psyker and not having him or her shipped off with the black ships wouldn't really warrant the attention of the majority of an Inquisitors peers. But trying to harbour someone like the infamous "Burning Princess" would be to step over the edge into radicalism.

Also, another point for my argument is Gideon Ravenor himself. He was also a latent psyker but this fact didn't make Eisenhorn having him shipped off with the black ships, and it didn't stop Gideon from becoming an Inquisitor either.

So, to summarize: whether a psyker would be burned/sent to the black ships or not, really depends on the GM's mood and portraying of the Inquisitor. Naturally someone like Rykehuss the Witchfinder wouldn't suffer an unsanctioned witch among his agents and would probably kill that acolyte himself. Someone like Vownus Kaede on the other hand would probably just be interested in how his acolytes' abilities develop but still keep a watchful eye in case the acolytes' willpower isn't what it needs to be to control such gifts.

Gideon was a trained psyker before his injuries just like Eisenhorn. He just became more powerful afterwards. You do have a point about Patience Ky. As I've said above in my games becoming a psyker just means that the PC needs to be sanctioned. The real problem is if the PC hides his/her powers.

Varnias Tybalt said:

That, or those psykers are sanctioned, it's simply not commented upon. Much like the fact that none of the Astropaths in the Eisenhorn trilogy are ever mentioned as being blind, yet we know for a fact from every other source written about them that the overwhelming majority of them are.

Gideon Ravenor was a powerful psyker by the time he was a senior Acolyte and later a promising young Inquisitor. Eisenhorn was a psyker of modest ability before his ascension to Inquisitor status. There is, save for a lack of any specific mention of it, no reason that they shouldn't or wouldn't be properly-sanctioned Psykers. Similar can even be said of Patience Kys - she might well hide it, but the Scholastica Psykana is a vast and ancient organisation within an even vaster and more ancient one, filled with all manner of obscure and bizarre traditions and disciplines, and to suggest that she's not sanctioned purely because she doesn't fit the stereotype of the robed, enfeebled Sanctionite is something of a stretch, IMO.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

That's not the reason why im saying it. It's because the timetable of the stories wouldn't fit if all psykers in them had to go all the way to terra and back for sanctioning.

Besides, there are other numerous examples of Inquisitorial agents showing signs of latent psychic ability, but it seems that once you're in the Inquisition with a beneficient Inquisitor, you are pardoned from the "standard procedure" that psykers normally are forced to undergo. Granted it is a bit of a double standard, but then again that's one of the many "virtues" the Inquisition adheres to on numerous occasions anyway...

Varnias Tybalt said:

In the case of Eisenhorn and Ravenor specifically, neither character is seen at all before their Inquisitorial service, and while Eisenhorn is a 'young' Inquisitor at the start of Xenos, he's not exactly a young man by modern standards. Then again, technically the timetable of the stories don't fit with the established background of the characters either (well, Eisenhorn and Quixos, at any rate - he didn't create those characters, afterall, and according to a twice-published account of Quixos' downfall, the Radical Inquisitor was slain in M35, about six thousand years before the events in the Eisenhorn novels).

And that's beyond the fact that, though he's a very capable writer, Dan Abnett does intermittently suffer from bouts of "doesn't know what he's talking about". In my experience and opinion, his works are good for tone, but bad for detail.

And that's beyond the fact that, though he's a very capable writer, Dan Abnett does intermittently suffer from bouts of "doesn't know what he's talking about". In my experience and opinion, his works are good for tone, but bad for detail.

I kinda gave up on him when guess-which-regiment of essentially light infantry took out an ambush of Chaos Marines with negligible losses. Oh, and later used a lasgun-powerpack as a makeshift grenade to outright destroy a chaos dreadnought .

I honestly hate the Gaunt's Ghost books with a passion. They are so ridiculously better than any IG should ever be.

Atheosis said:

Hehe, like the PC's in Dark Heresy and Rogue trader aren't?

It's called fate points/plot protection.

I remember this one time when our characters in DH beat up 100 plague bearers in one battle. Sure those characters were in their post 10.000 xp's, but still, a couple of non-Grey Knight characters wiping the floor with a veritable army of daemons? THAT'S over the top! Yet it happened, and we adhered to the rules in full. No GM fudging that helped us at all, and the battlefield conditions were no beter or favorable than what any Imperial Guard or Grey Knight unit would encounter. In fact we were at a disadvantage because we couldn't call in airstrikes and such. Yet with a power fist, some power swords, an eviscerator, a couple of bolters and bolt pistols, some fate points and power armour coupled with a rag tag bunch of determined acolytes saved the day...

Varnias Tybalt said:

I personally consider the Lesser Daemon stats in the back of the rulebook to be a little subpar. And by a little, I mean... try something like this.

Bloodletter of Khorne

WS BS S T Ag Int Per WP Fel
64 24 48 (8) 40 (8) 48 (4) 32 (3) 48 (4) 48 (4) 16 (1)
Movement: 4/8/12/24; Wounds : 24

Skills: Awareness (Per), Dodge (Ag), Psyniscience (Per), Speak Language (Daemonic) (Int), Speak Language (Any One) (Int)

Talents: Berserk Charge, Crushing Blow, Crippling Strike, Frenzy, Furious Assault, Resistance (Psychic Powers).

Traits: Daemonic (TB 8), Dark Sight, Daemonic Presence, Embodiment of Slaughter*, Fear 3, From Beyond, Natural Weapon (Claws, Teeth and Horns), The Stuff of Nightmares, Unnatural Strength (x2), Warp Instability

Daemonic Presence: The scent of blood and sulphur, and the distant sounds of battle accompany a Bloodletter everywhere it goes. All characters within 24 metres of a Bloodletter suffer a -10 penalty on Willpower Tests.

Embodiment of Slaughter: Daemons of Khorne are the aethyric manifestations of rage, fury and the desire to kill. For them, unending rage is as natural as breathing is to a human. A creature with this trait can enter a Frenzy as a Free Action.

Weapons: Hellblade (2d10+14 R; Pen 6; Tearing, Unbalanced, Warp Weapon)

Hellblade: These massive, improbably sharp weapons contain the bound essence of other daemons of Khorne. No mortal armour can withstand their bite, and few creatures have been struck by one and lived to tell about it. Each Hellblade is a Great Weapon, containing a Bound Daemon (WP 48), conferring +4 to Damage and Penetration and the Sharp as Sin (Tearing quality) and Warp Touched (Warp Weapon quality) attributes.

Equipment: None

Threat Rating: Malleus Majoris

Plaguebearers of Nurgle

WS BS S T Ag Int Per WP Fel
42 28 56 (5) 42 (16) 28 (2) 35 (3) 42 (4) 49 (4) 14 (1)

Movement: 2/4/6/12; Wounds: 28

Skills: Awareness (Per), Psyniscience (Per), Speak Language (Daemonic) (Int), Speak Language (Any One) (Int)

Talents: Disturbing Voice, Melee Weapon Training (Primitive), True Grit

Traits: Daemonic (TB 16), Dark Sight, Daemonic Presence, Diseased, Fear 3, From Beyond, Natural Weapon (Claws, Teeth and Horns), The Stuff of Nightmares, Unnatural Toughness (x2), Vomit, Warp Instability

Daemonic Presence: A feeling nausea accompanies Plaguebearers, inspired by their vile smell, abhorrent visage and the sickening monotony of their chanting. All characters within 24 metres of a Plaguebearer suffer a -10 penalty on Willpower Tests.

Diseased: Daemons of Nurgle are walking manifestation of disease and pestilence, their flesh masses of rancid putrescence serving as host and incubator for all manner of vile diseases lethal to mortalkind. Any wound inflicted by a creature with this Trait also risks becoming infected by one or other of these contagions, and even those merely inflicted in the vicinity of such a hive of foulness are not beyond Nurgle’s reach.
If you do not have the Toxin Rules in the GM’s Kit, treat any wound inflicted by a Daemon with this Trait as having the Toxic Quality. If you do have those rules, then all of the creature’s attacks have a poison with the following rules: Instant/-10/Necrotic (2d5) .
Further, any creature wounded within the Daemonic Presence range of a creature with this Trait is exposed to a poison with the following rules: Swift/+10/Necrotic (1d5+2) . A creature must test for only one poison per injury suffered, using the most deadly in cases where exposed to more than one.

Vomit: As a Half Action, a Plaguebearer can vomit on any adjacent victim. It must succeed on a Ballistic Skill test to hit its target. The target may dodge the spew but may not parry it. On a successful hit, the victim is exposed to a poison with the following rules: Instant/-20/Lethal and Necrotic (2d5) . If you do not have the Toxin Rules in the GM’s Kit, treat this as an attack dealing 1d10+5 I damage with the Toxic quality.

Weapons: Claws, Teeth, Horns and filth-covered blades (1d10+5 R, Diseased - see above)

Equipment: None

Threat Rating: Malleus Majoris

Best part is, as Daemons are so variable in nature and power, having two distinct sets of stats for them doesn't actually contradict anything...

And, to be honest, if a group of Acolytes can accomplish it, then Grey Knights will do it faster . Psycannons and Nemesis Force Weapons (Blessed, Pentagrammic-Warded Best-Craftsmanship Great Weapon Force Weapons carried by Space Marines - assuming Psy 3 and physical prowess equivalent to Brother-Sergeant Agamorr, a Grey Knight's Justicar would deal 2d10+14 R, Pen 7, ignoring Daemonic and causing Malediction on any Daemon suffering a Critical Hit) tear up Daemons so very fast.

Besides. It's not the lesser daemons you should be worrying about.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Don't know about you, but from several fluff sources and first hand witnessing what "lesser" daemons can do to space marines in power armour in the table top battlegame, I'd beg to differ.

Personally I think our characters should have been slaughtered by such an overwhelming force of plaguebearers, at least that would have kept it all in-fluff so to speak. But we didn't, hence the conclusion is that the RAW allows lowly acolytes to do over-the-top stuff. But I don't find that strange, since the acolytes in a campaign is the "main cast" of the story after all. It's only natural that they suffer from some form of plot protection, just liek it's natural that Gaunt's Ghosts suffer from the same thing.

Wouldn't be much of a story if everyone got killed off the first time around. Also, Gaunt's Ghosts aren't "too good to be guardsmen" like someone said, they suffer casualties all the time. It's just the main cast that survives, but if we're gonna ***** about that, then consider a few other characters in the fluff like Commissar Yarrick who have also survived and triumphed against impossible odds several times.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Err...doesn't that indicate to you that there is something wrong with the way plague bearers are statted out? It's pretty common knowledge that pretty much all daemons are underpowered in DH. No team of acolytes could do what you are describing, and if it did in fact happen while adhering to the rules as written it's clear the rules failed utterly.

Varnias Tybalt said:

A hundred lesser Daemons, in isolation, weak enough to be taken out by (admittedly experienced and well-equipped, if they've got 10k xp and power armour) normal humans... that's not really a big deal by comparison.

And, in context... when facing even weak Plaguebearers, it's not the daemons themselves you should be worrying about. It's the fact that they're host to all manner of virulent plagues, many of which have never been encountered by mankind before and some of which are sentient in their own right. The tiniest cut or scratch, or simply being in proximity long enough to breathe it in or let it come into contact with your flesh... well, a daemonic plague needs no invitation.

Don't know about you, but from several fluff sources and first hand witnessing what "lesser" daemons can do to space marines in power armour in the table top battlegame, I'd beg to differ.

Considering what Guardsmen with Lasguns can do to space marines in power armour (5+ to wound and missing a 3+ save = one dead marine) in that setting, I wouldn't accept that beg.

As for that specific battle, we already went through it once on these forums and noticed that the daemons didn't use the ressources at their disposal (aka manifest inside the village, slaughter all civilians, spoil all food and other surroundings and watch from the warp while the characters die from the resulting diseases).

Wouldn't be much of a story if everyone got killed off the first time around. Also, Gaunt's Ghosts aren't "too good to be guardsmen" like someone said, they suffer casualties all the time. It's just the main cast that survives, but if we're gonna ***** about that, then consider a few other characters in the fluff like Commissar Yarrick who have also survived and triumphed against impossible odds several times.

I think the difference lies in the attitude. Cain, to juxtapose the other famous Commissar protagonist, survives exploits on a level that is half-way equivalent (killing an unwounded Khorne Marine in single combat at least once), but he's mostly "OhshitohshitimgonnadieimgonnadieimgonnaDIE - hey, it's dead! Whew, can't believe that worked!" about them while Gaunt... well, it's business as usual.
And of course, Cain works on a far different level - Gaunt is pure action, Cain is action/comedy, where it's far easier to write characters that are over-the-top while still remaining likeable.

Cifer said:

What makes you think that Gaunt just "brush off" these events as "business as usual"?

He would be well aware of exactly how dangerous even a single Khorne Marine would be, it's just that he's more courageous than Cain is and doesn't dwell on how close it was that he died. Also Gaunt and his men do the same kind of improvisation that Cain does and it's usually that which let them survive through overwhelming odds, it's just that they (or at least Gaunt) doesn't whimper an cry like little girls while doing it, but they focus on the mission and have some sense of duty instead of only watching over their own hides like Cain does.

Also, I wouldn't call Gaunt's Ghosts "pure action". Cain might be action/comedy, Gaunt is more like action/war drama. And I disagree with your statements that some of the "over-the-top:ness" in Gaunt's Ghosts actually serve to make the characters less likeable. I've yet to read of a situation where the characters grow overconfident and smug, just because they have survived some pretty intense situations that should have killed them. And that's because they all act like they survived due to flukes, gambits and being a bit blessed from time to time, no because of sheer and ridiculous badassery.

If you want to see that, check out the Jedi from Star Wars. THAT's character ruining over-the-top:ness for ya...

Varnias Tybalt said:

Or the telepathic Inquisitor could go: " So possession by the daemon I just exorcised from you may have unlocked your psychic potential, hmm let's make you a witch..." (without telling you anything about it of course.)