As far as the future goes...

I would hope that at the very least, Honor is NOT used as any metric of Clan success. Asking the Mantis (well, the Yoritomo, anyway), Scorpion, and Spider to try not to lose honor is asking them not to play to type, and expecting the Lion, Crane or Phoenix to be able to GAIN any Honor without absurdly over-the-top gestures is patently ridiculous.As has been noted, the entire point-based system was kinda shaky-even though I can see the point of using Glory as a metric of success, being able to gain truckloads of it (as I did- Taisho ended court with a Glory rank over 9) was largely a matter of luck, rather than any indication of actively advancing Clan interests.

Using a point system with any basis in honor and/or glory to determine some sort of court "winner" is just a bad idea in general. Some of the greatest victories have been achieved behind the scenes, with no one gaining any glory. Some of them have happened without major changes in honor. Heck, sometimes the smartest thing for a character/a faction to do is take a shot in the nose, lose some glory and/or honor, and use said loss(es) as part of a method to achieve other important goals.

For instance (and I'm not using character names here purely because there was a lot of great RP involved, I don't recall all the names, and I don't want to leave anyone out), in a previous non-canon WC forum game, the Dragon and Lion were in conflict. There was also a bureaucrat, who's status made him nigh-untouchable, organizing the assassination of an important Imperial. The Dragon made a move on the Lion, the Imperials got involved, a duel was organized, and the bureaucrat overplayed his hand. This allowed the Dragon to realize that the bureaucrat planned to use fallout from the Dragon beating the Lion (the likely outcome of an iaijutsu duel) in order to advance his cause of taking out his target. Since the Dragon wanted said target to survive even more than they wanted this win over the Lion, they backpedaled (resulting in a loss of face) and didn't put forward their best duelist (losing the duel). However, doing so ultimately played a role in both preventing the aforementioned assassination and exposing the corrupt bureaucrat. It even helped to bring the conflict between the Dragon and Lion to an end rather amicably.

Honor and glory need to be broken down into points for gameplay's sake, but we all know that it's an oversimplification of these concepts. Oversimplifying even further and using said points as a means of picking winners/losers in highly-nuanced battles of political intrigue was never a good idea.

A kind reminder: This board is concerned with Winter Court 5 and it's potential as a field of play for fans of the game and to garner interest from new players.

Bringing up the mechanical flaws (perceived or otherwise) of predecessor games is for other forums.

Anywhat, we, the GM staff, have not covered the issue of creating a point system based around honor and glory since it was not brought up in the AMA thread; but if it eases minds, we have no current plans for implementing Honor and Glory for the purposes of determining win conditions. As far as we have discussed, goals will be based around actual role playing.

The update has spoken!

Thanks for the update! Been waiting for this

I hope this won't be a cliche ending where the rebel forces beat the unbeatable odds. It's not like they have Jedi powers or something. I'd rather see A Thousand Year's of Darkness like ending where the remaining forces of Rokugan flee in exile. I remember the scene where Uji and Kaneka looked back at the Empire and even if you can't see it, you know that the fire in their eyes says they'll be back to claim and free Rokugan.

Wait... so the Lion Clan essentially goes with the same thing as Kanpeki? I think the Lion might need a moment of self-evaluation. When you are rowing in the same boat as your supposed archenemy, then you are doing something very-very wrong.

Oopsie... bad internet connection is bad .

Wait... so the Lion Clan essentially goes with the same thing as Kanpeki? I think the Lion might need a moment of self-evaluation. When you are rowing in the same boat as your supposed archenemy, then you are doing something very-very wrong.

You would have to discuss that with the Lion player base and their path choice.

Wait... so the Lion Clan essentially goes with the same thing as Kanpeki? I think the Lion might need a moment of self-evaluation. When you are rowing in the same boat as your supposed archenemy, then you are doing something very-very wrong.

You would have to discuss that with the Lion player base and their path choice.

IIRC, the Akodo Restoration was not intended to move against the Emperor or the Throne (that would be kinda awkward anyways, considering who the Emperor is), just to purge the "deviants" like the Shourido followers. But now as it stands, the Lion Clan itself starts to become one of those deviants (what they plan is very Shourido-y).

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

Another good fiction. I was especially please about the gaijin parts as they show the gaijin as sentient human beings (for better and for worse) and not just objects for the rokugani to play with.

I think the Lion might need a moment of self-evaluation.

There are many clans that should think good and hard about what they stand for. Particularly after the death of the fire dragon .

Also I can't wait to see the supporters of both shogun arguing at WC V. That should be an interesting meeting

See you in the Sands..

And Shunryu goes on proving why he's our favorite Elemental Master of the final batch under AEG...

Hmmm... I have to wonder if these time line events have perhaps gone a bit too far. This is the first time I have looked them all over.

I don't see this being realistically turned back into the status quo. Seems like the whole goal is to bring a complete end to the Rokugan timeline by the time it is all done with.

The Unicorn are finished. The Imperial Families, including the Kasuga if they count, have been effectively wiped out (well, from any base of concentrated power). The minor clans all seem to be wiped out except the one that was previously wiped out. The Mantis has gone insane. The Crab are fighting the Spider tooth and nail and apparently making progress-- though it is too late to really reverse what has been done. The Scorpion ninja have been turned on them which ought to cleanly eliminate their clan pretty quickly. The Lion have turned on their own...

The Phoenix are searching for a way to fix things. And the Crane and Dragon... do... nothing. They have barely been mentioned at all. But I haven't delved into the large verse stories yet.

The only ones benefiting are apparently the Boar, a clan which has not only been extinguished twice already if I recall, but now is reinstated and is said to actually be gaining strength and are also apparently managing to win battles that even the Great Clans can't handle... starting with... nothing. It is pretty bad when apparently a previously extinct minor clan warrants more mention than some of the Great Clans.

One is going to have to pull some major deus ex machina to force the empire to go back to the standard set of clans all situated in their proper place after all this.

One is going to have to pull some major deus ex machina to force the empire to go back to the standard set of clans all situated in their proper place after all this.

Who said anything about things staying the same?

Wait... so the Lion Clan essentially goes with the same thing as Kanpeki? I think the Lion might need a moment of self-evaluation. When you are rowing in the same boat as your supposed archenemy, then you are doing something very-very wrong.

You would have to discuss that with the Lion player base and their path choice.

IIRC, the Akodo Restoration was not intended to move against the Emperor or the Throne (that would be kinda awkward anyways, considering who the Emperor is), just to purge the "deviants" like the Shourido followers. But now as it stands, the Lion Clan itself starts to become one of those deviants (what they plan is very Shourido-y).

An additional note: While that would indeed be the description of the Akodo Restoration, the Lion vote was tied 30% Akodo Restoration, 30% A Light in the Darkness.

Initial Path Choice 3 - Another Way - A Light in the Darkness: You will stand with the Emperor, but if he falls and Kanpeki sits on the throne, then the Empire will need a new leader to carry on the fight for what is right and true. The Clans that will not kneel before a Spider Emperor will need a true Emperor to lead them, and you are prepared to do your duty and give them one. If you choose this path, directly engaging the powerful forces of Jigoku and their allies--who could include other clans that have chosen to side with the Spider--you will be defying an Emperor and could be seen as usurpers. However, your strength and devotion to what’s right and pure will be the beacon around which true Rokugani will rally, and from which a new, stronger Empire will be born.

So... Little of Column A, Little of Column B.

One is going to have to pull some major deus ex machina to force the empire to go back to the standard set of clans all situated in their proper place after all this.

Who said anything about things staying the same?

20 years of precedent?

Time after time after time, things in L5R always more or less reset back to their natural state.

A new Great Clan can happen-- it has happened twice. Non-Great Clan factions can be erased or at least de-emphasized, it has happened at least 5 times. Minor Clans never seem to disappear-- not really. Even the ones that were initially invented as "extinct" come back in one form or another. Their ultimate fate seems to be to join a Great Clan as a family, they never shake loose after that.

In the end though, all previous Great Clans will exist. At least 8 out of the 9, the Spider Clan can change its name back to Shadowlands so long as the faction exists.

Scorpion will always have ninja, Unicorn will always ride horses, Crab will always defend the wall. Phoenix will always have an emphasis on magic, Crane will always be about art and dueling, Mantis will always be about ships, Lion will always have giant armies... None of that is mutable.

Each clan will always have courtier, bushi and shugenja.

No matter what else you do, all 9 factions have to remain the 9 factions and must resemble how they always have in the CCG and remain relatively consistent with how they were described in the last edition of the RPG.

Seriously, every writer of every arc for 20-years has done everything they can to top the last in the "I'm totally serious, you guys!! This is the end of like everything as you know it!! Nothing will ever be the same again!"

From the Nothing to the Four Winds causing civil wars within clans to the Rain of Blood to the rise of Kali-Ma and so on. With but a few story arcs, everything has been a desperate bid to try to get people's attentions by making it all seem like the 'end of the world' again and again. And in the end-- the same thing happens, the reset button is repeatedly jammed pretty hard and all 9 factions go back to the way they were before anything happened with only minor shifts in leadership or border holdings and all damage is more or less ignored, or just mentioned off-handedly in later stories.

Any group who has actually been named can never and will never be completely destroyed. Even this writer couldn't help but to dredge up and bring back a dead clan. And the literal moment any named supposedly extinct faction is brought back or a new one is created, their numbers, power and importance instantly become effectively comparable to every other named force on the same tier.

So unless it is understood that you are bringing the previous L5R timeline to a complete end and FFG is going to launch their set with a totally refreshed universe set up within the status quo, therefore you are working without the constraints that all previous writers were....

Then the further you go into "everything is darkness! everyone is dead! the Great clans splinter and fall!" it is ultimately just going to mean a bigger whiplash effect when you ultimately slam that "reset" button at the end, each clan is restored and reunites and each clan gets their lands, core holdings and specialties back.

Hobgoblyn... you do realize that this is not an official event, but a fan created event based on how things were going towards the end of the AEG ownership? It doesn't need to return to status quo after its finished.

One is going to have to pull some major deus ex machina to force the empire to go back to the standard set of clans all situated in their proper place after all this.

Who said anything about things staying the same?

20 years of precedent?

Time after time after time, things in L5R always more or less reset back to their natural state.

And if this were a formal AEG thing, you might have a point.

But it's a non-canon fan project, so... you don't.

Case in point, I rather doubt the "official" plot would have had the Imperial Families getting quite so thoroughly atomized, or the Fire Dragon getting killed, and so on. The divergence from established canon began with about the second update, and we've been in the land of "hold my beer and watch this" for quite some time.

As the writer behind the fiction releases, I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of beer-holding observation in the writing process.

the Fire Dragon getting killed

This was so typically Phoenix Clan it would be in official material for sure. Also, for the note, the death of a dragon is not a big deal as they just return to the Heaven to be reborn upon death. Hell, they return quickly even if they are "killed" for good (see: Air Dragon).

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

Time after time after time, things in L5R always more or less reset back to their natural state.

True enough, but I would give the Story Team much credits here. So far the "non official" story arc is much better than some "official" arc we had to endure.

Also, for the note, the death of a dragon is not a big deal as they just return to the Heaven to be reborn upon death

Still, the death of an elemental dragon is a rare and monumental event.

I can hardly imagine Isawa Jim saying; "Bollocks, we lost another of those -ing dragon, we have to wait for another one now !!"

As the writer behind the fiction releases, I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of beer-holding observation in the writing process.

Are we talking lager or stout ? Are we in Guinness territory here ?

See you in the sands !

So far the "non official" story arc is much better than some "official" arc we had to endure.

True that

As the writer behind the fiction releases, I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of beer-holding observation in the writing process.

Are we talking lager or stout ? Are we in Guinness territory here ?

See you in the sands !

As I said, I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of said beer. But purely hypothetically, I have in the past been quoted as liking my beer "dark as sin and twice as thick."

As I said, I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of said beer. But purely hypothetically, I have in the past been quoted as liking my beer "dark as sin and twice as thick."

Whereas I like my beer like I like the women in my life- thin, blonde, and bitter.

WOW! Such update. Very Samurai.

Check initial post for details.