So, explain why the game needs to be twisted to meet the requirements of people apparently too fickle to play as intended?

It has never been about playing the game as intended...it is because playing a game for 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 hours is way too long for many people (not just me). The likes of Soontir and Vanor shows exactly how welcoming and understanding some in the community actually are. They don't care how the game effects others as long as it doesn't bother their perceived perfect little world.

You really need to scale back your rhetoric, as you are winning over nobody with this argument. And I say this as one of the people who actually agreed with your basic premise about 16 hours being too long for a tourney, while also agreeing with the people who say that 12 hours to run six rounds of Swiss is a disaster of clock management by whomever ran that tourney.

Yes of course a movie that came out in December had no effect on store championships this year.

Xbear said it best...there comes a point where in a tournament it has nothing to do with who is the best x-wing player but who has the most endurance. If you really want it to be about endurance why not have an x-wing marathon and who ever runs 100 miles the fastest wins?

Yes of course a movie that came out in December had no effect on store championships this year.

You're quickly making the transition from clueless to troll.

The store championships and other events have been getting larger every year. That means not only are more people attending them, the ones there last year are coming back.

The movie in Dec may or may not have anything to do with that, it likely helped sell some X-Wing core sets, but is not going to get anyone to show up to a store championship.

So, explain why the game needs to be twisted to meet the requirements of people apparently too fickle to play as intended?

It has never been about playing the game as intended...it is because playing a game for 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 hours is way too long for many people (not just me). The likes of Soontir and Vanor shows exactly how welcoming and understanding some in the community actually are. They don't care how the game effects others as long as it doesn't bother their perceived perfect little world.

Then don't play in large tournaments. If that amount of time is not fun for you, then you shouldn't be doing it. I myself am debating about the merits of going to a Regional.

I am not saying that you should quit the game. But, if you live in an area where you can get 50+ people for a Store Championship (which isn't exactly standard, by the way), then you should know yourself better than to play in a tournament. Expecting a 50+ person tournament to last as long as a 20 person tournament is just pure fallacy. There is nothing wrong with only sticking to smaller, more local tournaments. I personally am not a fan of scenario play, but I don't think less of people that do play that way.

And the evidence is very much there that your opinion is in the minority. Look at the rate of growth this game is experiencing. I haven't run the math (I'll let MajorJuggler run that), but just a quick look at the Store Championships results points to this game's tournament play is growing. It will be awesome to see how this plays out with more Regionals this year. If this was such a problem, we would not be having the growth we are.

And if the play time is such an issue, limit the number of entrants. Many stores already do, because of space issues.

so how long do you think it's too long to set your dials and choose your actions? so I know when to make a comment or call the TO.

so how long do you think it's too long to set your dials and choose your actions? so I know when to make a comment or call the TO.

It's all subjective. Swarms require a lot more mental geometry once everything breaks down into a furball, so figuring out five TIEs in a furball can take longer than planning out seven TIEs who are able to keep formation.

However, if your opponent is only running a two ship list and is taking 3 minutes per dial and another two minutes to decide whether or not they want to Barrel Roll, I'd say that's good reason to call in a TO.

EDIT: And yes, I've had the latter happen to me. And I was only running Brobots of all things.

It has never been about playing the game as intended...

Are you just clueless or being intentionally obtuse? The game is intended to be played with 4-6 swiss rounds and a cut to the top 8 for most store championships.

That's how it's intended to be played...

So when you come here demanding it be changed for a very small % of the people playing in these events, you need to prove that doing so would make the OP circuit better not worse. Something you haven't even come close to doing.

First off, you don't know if it is a small percentage or not. Second, I have no problem with what the majority wants to do...have a vote of every single x-player and then you can talk to me about percentages.

Would you rather play in a 4 round swiss tourney cutting to a top 4...a 6 round tourney...highest mov winner...or a 6 round tourney cutting to a top 8 or a 7 or 8 round tourney cutting to a top 16?

I rather play a 4 round swiss cutting to a top 4.

If you would rather play in the 4 round cut to top 4 type of tournament, then you will just have to skip the 26+ player tournaments. FFG has set guidelines, that not every TO follows, for their "premier" level events. I love small and large tournaments, but if you only like small ones, then only play in the small ones. I doubt that every tournament in your area is more than 26 players, so find the small ones and play at those. Also if you prefer tournaments that start earlier, then ask your FLGS if you can run one, you could also cap it at 16 or 20 players and get the format you like.

If that amount of time is not fun for you, then you shouldn't be doing it.

That's my beef here. Rather than simply sticking to events that the OP would find fun, he seems hell bent on changing the format that everyone else uses and is fine with.

It's like rather than simply stop beating his head against the wall he wants walls made out of foam rubber so it doesn't hurt.

It's all subjective.

Yeah and it also depends on when in the game... I'm going to spend more time setting a dial for my last X-Wing then I will for my 3 Defenders when the other guy is down to his last X-Wing.

I am glad to be involved with events that garner such passionate responses, but we are getting a bit off field.

One thing that I definitely learned running this Store Championship is that we need to take pre-registrations (with payment) and cap attendance. We have a space that allows for over 100 players, but time requirements will force me to limit things to 40. It would be a stretch for us to reach cap for Store Championships next year, but I can be hopeful. That is something that I can do as a TO to make my event reasonably fit my venue.

FFG Organized Play has taken a few hits in the past, but they are doing a lot of what they need to in order to keep this (and their other games) growing. I'm sure that they will look at how things have gone for this season and make adjustments. Threads like these raise the questions that FFG OP will need to consider as this game keeps growing.

Certainly Endurance is a part of the game, but shouldn't be the deciding factor. Luck is a part of this game as well, but this game wouldn't be as popular as it is if people felt that luck was the deciding factor. The deciding factor should be skill... overly long events do run the risk of overwhelming skill with endurance. Where that tipping point is? Well... FFG OP needs to look at it and decide for their events (Regionals and up). Local TO's need to look at it and decide for their own events too.

I haven't been following the thread, and don't intend to meaningfully contribute.

However...

It has always be an issue for me how long tournaments are becoming.

Always: adverb. 1. every time; on every occasion; without exception.
Becoming: verb (used without object), became, become, becoming. 1. to come, change, or grow to be (as specified).

For some reason, this sentence makes me want to shake my stump at the screen and yell "that's impossible!"

I can only assume that the thread went downhill from here.

There comes a point when a store starts thinking they can host more than players than they are experienced with and the TO needs to realize that they are just one person and may not be able to do it all by just themself. It doesn't *need* to be a store employee to run the entire event, or provide all the staff to do so. They're already paying for their staff to be there, and the extra little things like paying for the lights and the heat/AC.

Perhaps it's because I live in a small city where it's very natural for people to volunteer and donate their time to causes, so it just seemed the normal thing to do. This past weekend, the local store championship I was at would not have happened if I hadn't stepped up myself as a dedicated player to give up playing at it, and throw all the organizing time before the event, making sure it's posted on various social media sites, answering questions, and looking after any questions that came up before hand and then spending 9 hours to actually RUN the event - all unpaid, simply from a love of the game. I had a blast doing it. I'm not begrudging what I did in the slightest.

So sometimes, we need to step up as a community and help the stores that want to provide a better experience (and yes, a better profit for themselves - that is the point of running a business after all). Ask for volunteers to help out in advance, and to help during the day. Even FFG realizes that running an event as a TO is a huge task, as an entire extra set of prizes is provided in the kits just for the TO. So yes, I came away with the challenge coin, the range ruler, and my C-3P0 card too just for running things. Do I feel I earned them? **** right I do. It was a ton of stress, but loads of fun. If I had someone helping me, we'd have just simply divided up the prizes. Simple.

So to try to throw this back entirely at FFG as some kind of poor planning and tournament structure on their part, I'd ponder if the event organizers actually running these events are doing everything they can, or at least - as seems to be the case with the store event in question here - are the learning from what they do and plan to adapt for the future? The 75-minute round seems to work just fine, with events growing and expanding every year thus far. So lets take a look at ourselves as a community first, and see if we like everything that we see in the mirror.

To quote a from someone who'd probably qualify as a Jedi master, at least from the wisdom side of things, "Be the change you want to see in the world."

I totally agree with Slugrage above. I was in exactly the same position.

FFG did flights as preliminary events at worlds in 2014...there wouldn't be anything stopping and inventive TO from doing so at their own events.

For example, an event could have 44-48 players, a TO could split it into 2 flights of 24 each. Each flight would do 4 rounds of Swiss to determine the top 4. Place the top 4 in each flight into a top 8 event to determine the winner. This would literally save 2 rounds of Swiss without increasing the amount of play space required. Other numbers would produce less of a time savings.

I'm going to keep this little trick in my pocket because I'm very concerned at how the number of rounds recommended escalates so crazily between 40 (5 Swiss and 2 Elimination) and 45 (6 Swiss and 3 Elimination) players.

Thanks to everyone who participated...and as Vanor said the majority has spoken so it's gotta be true. I guess my dream of playing in Regionals again or the Worlds will have to wait because it seems for now those events will always be a test of endurance more so than a test of x-wing skill, because of the tremendous growth which is well deserved. It's a fun game and I can understand why so many want to play. So I will keep it smaller and more casual until/or if it ever changes. I just hope someday they'll put skill ahead of who can last the longest. Good luck to for marathons ahead and back to your regularly scheduled programming.

I totally agree with Slugrage above. I was in exactly the same position.

FFG did flights as preliminary events at worlds in 2014...there wouldn't be anything stopping and inventive TO from doing so at their own events.

For example, an event could have 44-48 players, a TO could split it into 2 flights of 24 each. Each flight would do 4 rounds of Swiss to determine the top 4. Place the top 4 in each flight into a top 8 event to determine the winner. This would literally save 2 rounds of Swiss without increasing the amount of play space required. Other numbers would produce less of a time savings.

I'm going to keep this little trick in my pocket because I'm very concerned at how the number of rounds recommended escalates so crazily between 40 (5 Swiss and 2 Elimination) and 45 (6 Swiss and 3 Elimination) players.

2 flights with 4 swiss rounds sounds good. it saves at least 2 hours

I think what ppl are concerned is that one of the flights might have a greater number of strong or weak players, hence skewing who goes in the top 8.

For example in my last SC, my first 3 rounds were losses, my last 3 rounds were wins.

however, usually the strong players are known. perhaps they could be seeded in each of the two flights.

directly slag off the fab base...

Somebody's talking **** about Tracy Island?

Sounds like a tournament organiser problem (scheduling) not a too long problem.

1. started at 11

2. too long between rounds.

15 minutes should be plenty between rounds (allowing 90 minutes between round starts.

Sample Schedule

9.30 rego

10.00 round 1

11.30 round 2

1.00 Lunch

1.45 round 3

3.15 round 4

4.45 round 5

6.15 round 6

7.45 Dinner

8.30 Top 8

10.00 Top 4

11.30 Final

Yes it's a long day if you make it all the way, but that provides 15 minutes between rounds for pairings and 2x 45 minute food breaks. Unless you top 4, it is quite a reasonable end time for a large event (one large enough to justify 6 rounds).

That final, even untimed, should be finished by 1am, and only 3 people need to be there for that (the 2 players and the TO).

That is also starting at 10am for out of towners, you could easily even move everything forward by 30-60 minutes.

The thing to remember, that there can be a good 5-10 minutes after time is called as people finish their last round (any more, and someone is stalling).

That final, even untimed, should be finished by 1am, and only 3 people need to be there for that (the 2 players and the TO).

That is also starting at 10am for out of towners, you could easily even move everything forward by 30-60 minutes.

While true, I think that it hurts the local community when people don't stick around to see the best game of the day (and to cheer on the eventual winner). That is one thing that I would have changed about the store championship last weekend...

While true, I think that it hurts the local community when people don't stick around to see the best game of the day (and to cheer on the eventual winner). That is one thing that I would have changed about the store championship last weekend...

There's no way I'm sticking around for 3+ hours waiting for the final round to start just so I can watch someone play X-Wing.

Another fun thing that happens in a lot of tournaments over here once posting are announced 2 mins later the clock starts. so you better hurry.

On Sunday I ran and TO'd Southampton's first X-Wing tournament and it was a store championship. We had 4 rounds of swiss (75 minute rounds, 15 mins set up in between rounds) with an hour of food/beer break (we have no FLGS so this was held in a pub and a store in another city helped us out with the prize kit) and cut to top 4.

Including set up and take down time and the un-timed final rounds; I was there well over 12 hours. Sure it's a long day and tough on the finalists (and worse at larger events) but official FFG tournament rules do not specify the lower than premier level events have to have a cut. It's really only the Store Champs and above that are such long gruelling days but I guess if you really want to compete at that level; them's the breaks. To be fair; this is one of the reasons I'm not too bothered about playing in the store champs or above. I love playing X-Wing but forcing myself past the enjoyable point just stops being fun. I'd love to go to regional's for the experience but I just don't feel like that much X-Wing would be fun all day.

Personally; I'm happy with Sunday's turn out and glad the event went well. I got myself the TO's share of goodies from the kit, met a lot of new people and dished out a regionals bye to a really deserving player. Long? Yes. Worth it? Yes. But I do empathise with the OP's sentiment.

I agree, they are too long. Played a Store Champs with 56 players, 6 rounds Swiss and then a cut to 8. We didn't even start the cut until 7:30pm.

They are looking at holding the Regional which will be up to 132 players with 7 rounds of Swiss and then a cut to 8. Who knows when that will finish, even with an 8:30 am start.

Just saw that the Mt. View, California regionals is going to be a two day event. Looks like there is hope that sanity can prevail.

Just saw that the Mt. View, California regionals is going to be a two day event. Looks like there is hope that sanity can prevail.

More then a few of the Regionals are going to be two day events. At a certain level of attendance I agree that you need a two day event. But if you think that means you aren't going to be playing 6 or 7 rounds in a single day still, you are likely going to be disappointed.

Two day Regionals are likely going to move the Top Cut to Sunday, so you are still going to be playing the full amount of Swiss rounds on Saturday. Given that your orginal issue was with how long the Swiss portion of the event took, if you still believe that to not be the fault of poor time management from the TO, then a two day Regional fixes nothing for you. You are still going to be playing 6-7 rounds in a day.

Just saw that the Mt. View, California regionals is going to be a two day event. Looks like there is hope that sanity can prevail.

More then a few of the Regionals are going to be two day events. At a certain level of attendance I agree that you need a two day event. But if you think that means you aren't going to be playing 6 or 7 rounds in a single day still, you are likely going to be disappointed.

Two day Regionals are likely going to move the Top Cut to Sunday, so you are still going to be playing the full amount of Swiss rounds on Saturday. Given that your orginal issue was with how long the Swiss portion of the event took, if you still believe that to not be the fault of poor time management from the TO, then a two day Regional fixes nothing for you. You are still going to be playing 6-7 rounds in a day.

At least this is much better I believe. For me personally 6 rounds is about it on the fun scale. But at least you can mentally prepare for a 6-7 round event knowing if you make the cut you get to go get a good night's sleep and come back refreshed for the top 16 the next day.